What are the issues in Sunday keeping vs. Sabbath keeping?

[BobRyan]

That's the only reason you should acknowledge the Sabbath.

In Ex 20 God said (long AFTER the fall of mankind) that the REASON to honor the Sabbath is due to the Gen 1:2-2:3 facts of scripture alone.

You say we should ignore God on that point.

Not happening.

Moses said we should pay attention to what God actually said at the Ex 20 Sinai event and obey the Sabbath just as "God commandED" at Sinai.

Who shall we trust? (As for me and my house...)

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Doesn't matter....Moses, through God, changed the reason the Sabbath was to be kept.

Not according to Deut 5 -

22 “These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

According to Deut 5 Moses ADDs --

12 ‘ Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you.

...

15 And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

[Sonny]

Who shall we trust? (As for me and my house...)

Let's say you right....You keep the Sabbath, but you don't live Christ's life. Remember that He thought not, lived not for Himself. Why aren't you busy doing that too?

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Doesn't matter....Moses, through God, changed the reason the Sabbath was to be kept.

Not according to Deut 5 -

22 “These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

15 Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out of there with a strong hand and an outstretched arm. That is why the Lord your God has commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

[Sonny]

22 “These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

Yes, He added no more commands. The Sabbath is the same day, but the reason was changed. Get that down. Moses said it:

15 Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out of there with a strong hand and an outstretched arm. That is why the Lord your God has commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

[BobRyan]

Let's say you right....You keep the Sabbath, but you don't live Christ's life.

At no point have I said that Moses in Deut 5 OR in Ex 20 commanded us to "not bow down to graven images -- but do NOT live the Christian life".

At no point have I said that Moses in Deut 5 OR in Ex 20 commanded us to "Remember the Sabbath day -- but do NOT live the Christian life".

You are spinning the point.

in Christ,

Bob

[Sonny]

At no point have I said that Moses in Deut 5 OR in Ex 20 commanded us to "Remember the Sabbath day -- but do NOT live the Christian life".

I didn't say the Christian life....I said Christ's life...that life is law keeping. Stop spinning.

[Sonny]

Tell me, what does your resting symbolize on the Sabbath? And don't give me tradition...give me a Bible reason and in context!!!!!!

Yes?

[BobRyan]

Deut 5 -

22 “These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

According to Deut 5 Moses ADDs --

12 ‘ Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you.

...

15 And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

Moses is explicit that the tablets of stone AS given 40 years BEFORE Deut 5 are still valid.

Moses is explicit that what is written on the tablets of stone IS in fact what God SPOKE on the Mountain at Sinai - 40 years before.

At no point does Moses say "DO NOT obey the Sabbath as God COMMANDED you 40 years ago -- instead here is the replacement reason for Sabbath".

The point remains.

in Christ,

Bob

[Sonny]

At no point does Moses say "DO NOT obey the Sabbath as God COMMANDED you 40 years ago -- instead here is the replacement reason for Sabbath".

He said obey the Sabbath for this reason:

15 Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out of there with a strong hand and an outstretched arm. That is why the Lord your God has commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Tell me, what does your resting symbolize on the Sabbath? And don't give me tradition...give me a Bible reason and in context!!!!!!

Yes?

Slow to answer, Bob. What's the reason? Give me the Bible. Tell me what you are resting from because Hebrews chapter 4 states that you are to rest from your work as God did from His.... What then is God resting from?

[Sonny]

Heb 4:10 Therefore anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his

What are you SDA to rest from? Keep in mind God rested for the same reason. Why did He rest? That's why you are to rest.

Clue: It ain't creation because that work was destroyed by sin. God is not longer resting from His work of a perfect creation. That will happen only when God recreates a new heaven and a new earth.

[BobRyan]

When you choose to "not take God's name in vain" or "keep the Sabbath" it only has value if you are born-again because in the end all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.

The Sabbath rest of Heb 4 is the same Sabbath rest as that of Psalms 95 valid long before the Cross.

The misguided idea that you have to go to Heb 4 to make the case that people are lost and need salvation is not the great argument for Sabbath that some have imagined.

Hint: The simple point that all mankind is in need of salvation can be made from Romans 3.

The point of the New Creation is made clearly in 2Cor 5 and in Heb 8 (the New Covenant) - again without having to muddy the issue of Sabbath and Creation.

in Christ,

Bob

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

Sonny, I was quoting you.

Your logic needs oiling...

No, this is a lie! You misrepresented me. I explained myself...you continued in your misrepresentation.

Calling me a liar, Sonny? It's all right there for everyone to see. Some people are so caught up in their own notions about God and the Sabbath and Creation, etc., that they have no concept of what is true/false; logical/illogical..

I really don't care if you want to desecrate the Scriptures. That doesn't change what it says anyway...

[Sonny]

Quote:

Calling me a liar, Sonny? It's all right there for everyone to see.

Yes, you misrepresented what I said and then you did it a 2nd time. Now you wish to hide under a robe of your own self-righteousness.

Quote:

I really don't care if you want to desecrate the Scriptures.

Another lie. Prove that I'm doing as you say.....

[Sonny]

Tell me what you are resting from because Hebrews chapter 4 states that you are to rest from your work as God did from His....What then is God resting from?

[Sonny]

Tell me what you are resting from because Hebrews chapter 4 states that you are to rest from your work as God did from His....What then is God resting from?

We have strayed a bit from the original topic:

What are the issues in Sunday keeping vs. Sabbath keeping?

Here's some of what Jack said:

Whenever the issue of the Sabbath-Sunday is brought into focus, one’s attention is immediately turned to the Sunday keeping Christians versus the Sabbath keepers. This, I believe, is not the real issue. There are today many sincere Christians who are fully resting in Christ for salvation but are Sunday keepers. They are keeping the wrong day for the right reason. Likewise, there are many sincere Sabbath keepers who believe their Sabbath keeping will save them. They are keeping the right day for the wrong reason. Both need correction and this the Holy Spirit, who is to lead us into all truth, will do.

When this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations [Matthew 24:14]; it will polarize or divide the human race into only two camps — believers and unbelievers [1 John 5:19], those who are fully resting in Christ and those who have ultimately rejected Christ. All who come under the banner of Christ will in the end-time worship the Lord of the Sabbath and their Sabbath keeping will be the outward sign or seal of the righteousness they have already received by faith, just as circumcision was to Abraham “a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised” [Romans 4:11].

Those who have deliberately and ultimately turned their backs to the free gift of salvation in Christ will all worship the dragon which gave power unto the beast [Revelation 13:3-4]. These will exalt Sunday as man’s day of rest in defiance of the Sabbath, God’s rest day. The issue then in the final conflict will not be between two groups of Christians or even two rest days, but two opposing methods of salvation: the Sabbath, signifying salvation by faith alone, versus Sunday, signifying salvation by works or human effort.

When man turned from God-dependence, at the fall, and consequently had to eat his bread by the sweat of his brow [Genesis 3:19], a human rest day became necessary. Today, Sunday is that international day of rest, established by the world under Satan. Since man was also created a spiritual being, his departure from God-dependence to self-dependence also meant a departure from God-worship to subtle forms of self-worship [Romans 1:21-23; Isaiah 53:6; Philippians 2:21].

This spiritual departure led man from righteousness by faith to righteousness by works [self-righteousness – Genesis 3:7; 11:4-9]. The New Testament describes this as the religion of Babylon based on the claims of Nebuchadnezzar, the great king of ancient Babylon [Daniel 4:30,31; Revelation 14:6-11]. [it must be noted here that the word Babylon derived its name from the ill-fated tower of Babel, meaning Gate (Bab) of God (el), symbolizing man trying to reach heaven by works.] The fundamental issue is all of scripture is salvation by faith versus salvation by works. At the heart of the Bible message is salvation by grace made effective through faith alone [Habakkuk 2:4; Romans 3:28; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Hebrews 10:38-39; 11:1-40]. At the heart of every false religion is salvation by works.

In ancient times, Sunday not only became man’s day of rest from physical and mental work but, above all, symbolized man’s spiritual day of rest and worship based on the pagan belief that the sun was the god of gods. This became prominent in Christ’s day in the Roman Empire. Hence, at its very foundation, Sunday rest is a pagan institution representing self-righteousness; this is in complete contradiction to God’s Sabbath, His sign to man of righteousness by faith [Exodus 31:13, 16; Hebrews 10:14]. These two opposing concepts of salvation can never be reconciled and have been in conflict ever since the fall.

When the true gospel of righteousness by faith will be fully recovered and preached into all the world, every person will have to make the choice, either for or against Christ [Deuteronomy 30:19,20; Joshua 24:13-15; Romans 9:30-33; Philippians 3:3-9]. At that time, the Sabbath will become the seal of God, representing righteousness by faith. In contrast, Sunday will represent the Mark of the Beast, signifying man’s rejection of God’s saving grace in Christ [Revelation 14:10-11]. Therefore, when the Sunday (blue) law will be legally established, it will indicate the world’s deliberate and ultimate rejection of God’s loving offer of salvation through His Son.

This is the “abomination of desolation” Christ spoke about [Matthew 24:14-22]. Those who will then insist on Sunday rest, in willful opposition to God’s Sabbath rest, will receive the plagues, the wrath of God poured out without mixture [Revelation 14:9-11]. In contrast, those who will stubbornly keep the Seventh-day Sabbath will be manifesting a faith in God that is unshakeable. They will go through the great time of trouble and wash their robes white in the blood of the Lamb.

Because of the mixed, confused ideas of salvation, the true controversy between God’s Sabbath and man’s Sunday is today still foggy and not clearly understood. But when the two opposing methods of salvation come into clear focus, then the true importance of the Sabbath will be seen clearly. May God give us, at that time, the grace and courage to stand for truth.

[BobRyan]

When the lost person comes to Christ and is born-again they no longer are under the condemnation of the Law of God (see Gal 3).

In 1Cor 7:19 Paul says to the saints "but what matters is keeping the commandments of God".

Obedience to the Law of God is something that the saints are known for in Rev 14. In fact in 1John 2 - John says that anyone in rebellion against the commandments of God - and yet claims to know and Love Christ - is not telling the truth.

Christ himself makes the same case in Matt 7.

Paul says in 1Cor 9 "I buffet my body and make it my slave lest after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified".

Never does Paul argue that the saints "Coast into heaven".

At the same time it is also true that there is no rest for the wicked. They have no ability to be at peace with God apart from the Gospel where we are reconciled to God.

in Christ,

Bob

[CoAspen]

TW has a saying, 'Don't feed the ......' if you want them to go away!!

(A good day to you)

[Sonny]

You didn't answer the question.

[Sonny]

The Sabbath rest of Heb 4 is the same Sabbath rest as that of Psalms 95 valid long before the Cross.

Ps 95:1 Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation. 2 Let us come before him with thanksgiving and extol him with music and song. 3 For the LORD is the great God, the great King above all gods. 4 In his hand are the depths of the earth, and the mountain peaks belong to him. 5 The sea is his, for he made it, and his hands formed the dry land. 6 Come, let us bow down in worship, let us kneel before the LORD our Maker; 7 for he is our God and we are the people of his pasture, the flock under his care. Today, if you hear his voice, 8 do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah, as you did that day at Massah in the desert, 9 where your fathers tested and tried me, though they had seen what I did. 10 For forty years I was angry with that generation; I said, "They are a people whose hearts go astray, and they have not known my ways." 11 So I declared on oath in my anger, "They shall never enter my rest."

Sorry, my rest is not the Sabbath. Go back to Hebrews 4:

1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest [context: accept the gospel], just as God has said, "So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'

Paul took what David had to say and defined "God's rest" as our redemption - the good news of the gospel.

Now drop down to verse 9:

9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God [i.e., the Jews]; 10 for anyone [Jew/Gentile] who enters God's rest [accepts the gospel] also rests from his own work, just as God did from his.

You see the Jews were keeping the 7th-day, but they didn't know why! They were following their legalistic traditions. They kept the Sabbath to be saved.

Those who accept the gospel - the completed work of God in Christ - rest every 7th-day as God did.

Now, from what did God rest? Yes?

[BobRyan]

When the lost person comes to Christ and is born-again they no longer are under the condemnation of the Law of God (see Gal 3).

In 1Cor 7:19 Paul says to the saints "but what matters is keeping the commandments of God".

Obedience to the Law of God is something that the saints are known for in Rev 14. In fact in 1John 2 - John says that anyone in rebellion against the commandments of God - and yet claims to know and Love Christ - is not telling the truth.

Christ himself makes the same case in Matt 7.

Paul says in 1Cor 9 "I buffet my body and make it my slave lest after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified".

Never does Paul argue that the saints "Coast into heaven".

At the same time it is also true that there is no rest for the wicked. They have no ability to be at peace with God apart from the Gospel where we are reconciled to God.

you saw that - yes?

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Rom 11

18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;

21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

[Sonny]

Bob, stop it. You are a sinner...you are not living Christ's life. So stop the grandstanding. Get back to the subject - i.e., the Sabbath.

[Sonny]

Now, from what did God rest? Yes?

?