Are Roman Catholics Correct about SDA: Part 2

[ClubV12]

As to the authors statement, it represents the finality of her statements on doctrine. Not the developement stages as doctrine was being forged.

But miz3's question is valid, at any point in time, DID Ellen White offer counsel on doctrine that was her "opinion", subject to change, correction, divine revelation at a later date?

Was Moses citing personal opinion some of the time and citing direct revelation at other times? Was Moses' personal opinion left out of the Talmud and only the divine revelation aspects of his counsel preserved? Where the Israelites constantly trying to figure out which was which?

Thats really all EGW is doing, expanding the 10 commandments so that we see them in a practical application for our day and time, as Moses did. Should we then only pay attention to statements that are clearly inspired from EGW and discard anything that appears to be personal opinion?

Should we discard Pauls clear statements that are personal opinion and accept only that which is considered divine revelation? As it concerns marriage, both Paul and Ellen White agree, it is best for some (if not most) to NOT marry. Personal opinion or divine revelation?

[miz3]

Thats really all EGW is doing, expanding the 10 commandments so that we see them in a practical application for our day and time, as Moses did. Should we then only pay attention to statements that are clearly inspired from EGW and discard anything that appears to be personal opinion?

Thanks for your comments to my question. I like what you wrote. I hope more will respond.

Even when Ellen White is expressing her own opinion it does not necessarily mean we should discard it. It might be a valid and correct opinion. In which case we could be foolish to simply discard it on the singular basis that it was "not inspired".

I am still interested to know, when Ellen White commented on Doctrine was she ever citing her own opinion or was she always citing what God told her to say?

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

Thats really all EGW is doing, expanding the 10 commandments so that we see them in a practical application for our day and time, as Moses did. Should we then only pay attention to statements that are clearly inspired from EGW and discard anything that appears to be personal opinion?

Thanks for your comments to my question. I like what you wrote. I hope more will respond.

Even when Ellen White is expressing her own opinion it does not necessarily mean we should discard it. It might be a valid and correct opinion. In which case we could be foolish to simply discard it on the singular basis that it was "not inspired".

I am still interested to know, when Ellen White commented on Doctrine was she ever citing her own opinion or was she always citing what God told her to say?

Miz3, why don't you ask her?

She has already answered this question.

1 S.M.31,32,35,37.

sky

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

Thats really all EGW is doing, expanding the 10 commandments so that we see them in a practical application for our day and time, as Moses did. Should we then only pay attention to statements that are clearly inspired from EGW and discard anything that appears to be personal opinion?

Thanks for your comments to my question. I like what you wrote. I hope more will respond.

Even when Ellen White is expressing her own opinion it does not necessarily mean we should discard it. It might be a valid and correct opinion. In which case we could be foolish to simply discard it on the singular basis that it was "not inspired".

I am still interested to know, when Ellen White commented on Doctrine was she ever citing her own opinion or was she always citing what God told her to say?

A simple way to solve your riddle here about Ellen White is to do as she has always advised, and check what she says with the Bible. That's the end of the story for me.

[Overaged]

rudywoofs,

Are you saying Ellen White and her messages from God have nothing to do with SDA Docrine?

If that is true, then why do SDA cite her so much?

Ellen White AND several others of our Pioneers were founders of our Church; and together, they gradually developed some of our doctrines, but also, they brought some doctrines with them, from which ever church they came from before our's. Citing any one of the Pioneers, is just a convenient way to point others to something in the Bible. Unfortunately, many do not do this.

[Gustave]

If by "inerrant" means = infallible, then the statement is false. She herself had never claimed it. She categorically states that ONLY God is infallible.

And at the same time Ellen White claimed that God...

...Was giving her data dumps.

...Therefore if God is real by default Ellen would be infabbible.

...Because God is infallible and His power was coming into Ellen.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

If by "inerrant" means = infallible, then the statement is false. She herself had never claimed it. She categorically states that ONLY God is infallible.

And at the same time Ellen White claimed that God...

...Was giving her data dumps.

...Therefore if God is real by default Ellen would be infabbible.

...Because God is infallible and His power was coming into Ellen.

Well; the Pope does claim "infallibility," (doctrinally), as well as the role of "in place of Christ." (here on Earth).

[Gustave]

Well; the Pope does claim "infallibility," (doctrinally), as well as the role of "in place of Christ." (here on Earth).

Every Catholic Priest is in "the person of Christ".....

...And matter of fact Christians are "little Christ's".

Ellen White made claims past that of any Pope...

...Catholic Dogma is formulated as witnessed in Acts 15.

...There has never been a Pope who fell down and claimed to have a vision from God.

...Then declaired it a teaching.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Well; the Pope does claim "infallibility," (doctrinally), as well as the role of "in place of Christ." (here on Earth).

Every Catholic Priest is in "the person of Christ".....

...And matter of fact Christians are "little Christ's".

Ellen White made claims past that of any Pope...

...Catholic Dogma is formulated as witnessed in Acts 15.

...There has never been a Pope who fell down and claimed to have a vision from God.

...Then declaired it a teaching.

Thankyou for your reply Gustave! I find your comments interesting to discuss.

How did Ellen White make claims "past that of any Pope?"

I had a vision once. Many Christians, lay people included have a vision from God. So do many Roman Catholics - especially their Saints, like Mary.

I am not sure what your point is right now. Certainly, if we go by what you are posting, it is obvious that Roman Catholics are quite wrong about Seventh-day Adventists on several counts.

[Gustave]

Catholic Dogma comes by way of how it happened in Acts 15....

....It does not happen in a matter of "months".

....Ellen White merely picked what she believed would be the winning side.

....And confirmed whatever the teaching was with a vision.

That's the difference...

...And it's a very big one.

[Sonny]

Every Catholic Priest is in "the person of Christ".....

[Overaged]

Catholic Dogma comes by way of how it happened in Acts 15....

....It does not happen in a matter of "months".

....Ellen White merely picked what she believed would be the winning side.

....And confirmed whatever the teaching was with a vision.

That's the difference...

...And it's a very big one.

I would be interested to discuss which verses you refer to in Acts 15. Please share!

[ClubV12]

"And at the same time Ellen White claimed that God...

...Was giving her data dumps."

"Data dumps", I assume you mean her visions and dreams that were direct revelations from God to her? When she wrote out what she was shown or was told to her by the angels of God she was indeed "infallible". As to her personal opinion on certain topics, she was human, with like passions as all humans have. Not perfect in every regard. We have ample evidence from the bible that many prophets were not perfect. But when they spake what was revealed to them directly by God, they were ALL infallible. Paul offered not only divine testimony in his writings, but also offered personal opinion on occasion. Balam was a particularly evil prophet. But when it came to prophecy, no matter how hard he tried to curse israel, all he could do was speak of blessing them. Even deep in sin, he remained an inspired messenger of God. A prophet cannot turn on and turn off inspiration, it comes from God, through them.

[skyblue888]

Good points Club!

It is NOT the instrument but the message God sends through that instrument that is infallible.

sky

[Overaged]

Not perfect in every regard. We have ample evidence from the bible that many prophets were not perfect. But when they spake what was revealed to them directly by God, they were ALL infallible.

You make some excellent points here; however, it needs to be noted that this is how Roman Catholics also view the Pope.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

Not perfect in every regard. We have ample evidence from the bible that many prophets were not perfect. But when they spake what was revealed to them directly by God, they were ALL infallible.

You make some excellent points here; however, it needs to be noted that this is how Roman Catholics also view the Pope.

Yes but prophets were not popes.

sky

[Overaged]

Yes; I know that, and I agree with that; but we are asking the question here, "are Roman Catholics right" about Seventh-day Adventists. It is important to note what they also teach to make a fair comparison.

[skyblue888]

There is a comparison, of course. We have a man at the top just like the Catholic church does and our constitution is not much different than the papal constitution patterned after the Mosaic order. It is no wonder that Mrs. White warned that we were following in the track of Rome and that is another reason why she also stated that we had less to say about the Roman power since we were lessening the distance between us and her. She said those things many years ago. I wonder what she would say now if she were alive. She did have a dream about all of this and it is recorded in Testimonies, Vol.1, p.578.

sky

[ClubV12]

No question that is how they view the Pope. I'll go a step further on that, I get the distinct impression they view the Pope not as a messenger of God, a prophet, but as verily equal to God! Able to change times and laws. In that respect, the Pope is of far greater significance than a "mere" prophet! Or, so they say...

No matter what the human character of a messenger of God may appear to be, we can know if they are of God or not by their works.

[skyblue888]

Club, in Testimonies to Ministers, pp.361-366 Mrs. White is talking about the condition in our churches. She says, "Humanity is hailed as God." T.M.365.

Do you see why she said that she was afraid of the high-handed power that has developed among us? see p.361,363,366.

"The spirit of domination (spirit of the papacy) is extending to the presidents of our conferences." T.M.362.

Extending to the presidents of our conferences because this is how it is at the top.

This is serious.

sky

[Overaged]

Club, in Testimonies to Ministers, pp.361-366 Mrs. White is talking about the condition in our churches. She says, "Humanity is hailed as God." T.M.365.

Do you see why she said that she was afraid of the high-handed power that has developed among us? see p.361,363,366.

"The spirit of domination (spirit of the papacy) is extending to the presidents of our conferences." T.M.362.

Extending to the presidents of our conferences because this is how it is at the top.

This is serious.

sky

[ClubV12]

I can't help but recall the words of Ellen White in regard to the GC as being the highest authority on earth. That the "church" (various definitions on what comprises the "church" is acknowledged) may appear to fall, but does not.

MY definition of the "church", for the time being, open to "new light" on the issue, is the sanctioned, officially recognized body of believers known as and legally sustained as, "Seventh-day Adventists". Headed by the highest authority on earth, the GC.

I understand this is serious, very serious. I tremble to think I might be placed in a position as to consider if I will or will not support that body and their declarations of "church law". As I'm sure Luther trembled when it became clear he had no other choice but to oppose what he considered the "highest authority" on earth. Until and unless that becomes exceedingly clear, I can do no other, than stand by the GC in all regards. Even though I may not agree with them in all things in my heart. Openly going against them is another matter!

I'm not suggesting that anyone is going against them. Warnings, reproofs, counsel in that regard is given due consideration.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Club, in Testimonies to Ministers, pp.361-366 Mrs. White is talking about the condition in our churches. She says, "Humanity is hailed as God." T.M.365.

Do you see why she said that she was afraid of the high-handed power that has developed among us? see p.361,363,366.

"The spirit of domination (spirit of the papacy) is extending to the presidents of our conferences." T.M.362.

Extending to the presidents of our conferences because this is how it is at the top.

This is serious.

sky

Its serious beause you are distorting it. This is how the passage in TM reads, just so we can see the correct context

Quote:

Under Which Banner? [sPECIAL TESTIMONIES TO

MINISTERS AND WORKERS (SERIES A, NO. 9, 1897),

PAGES 21-31.]

September 24.

Everything in our world is in agitation. Coming events cast their shadows before. The signs of the times are ominous, indeed. There is assurance in nothing that is human or earthly. The winds are held by the four angels; a moment of respite has been graciously given us of God. Every power lent us of God, whether physical, mental, or moral, is to be sacredly cherished to do the work assigned us for our fellowmen who are perishing in their ignorance. The warning is to go forth to all parts of the world. There must be no delay. {TM 364.2}

Rapidly are men ranging themselves under the banner they have chosen, restlessly waiting and watching the movements of their leaders. There are those who are

365

watching and waiting and working for our Lord's appearing; while the other party are rapidly falling into line under the generalship of the first great apostate. They look for a god in humanity, and Satan personifies the one they seek. Multitudes will be so deluded through their rejection of truth that they will accept the counterfeit. Humanity is hailed as God. {TM 364.3}

One has come from the heavenly courts to represent God in human form. The Son of God was made man, and dwelt among us. "In Him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. . . . That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. He came unto His own, and His own received Him not. But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God." {TM 365.1}

This is not directed specifically to the GC like you say.

In order for us to get the drift of what she is saying here we must read from p.361 all the way to 366.

sky

[skyblue888]

I can't help but recall the words of Ellen White in regard to the GC as being the highest authority on earth. That the "church" (various definitions on what comprises the "church" is acknowledged) may appear to fall, but does not.

MY definition of the "church", for the time being, open to "new light" on the issue, is the sanctioned, officially recognized body of believers known as and legally sustained as, "Seventh-day Adventists". Headed by the highest authority on earth, the GC.

I understand this is serious, very serious. I tremble to think I might be placed in a position as to consider if I will or will not support that body and their declarations of "church law". As I'm sure Luther trembled when it became clear he had no other choice but to oppose what he considered the "highest authority" on earth. Until and unless that becomes exceedingly clear, I can do no other, than stand by the GC in all regards. Even though I may not agree with them in all things in my heart. Openly going against them is another matter!

I'm not suggesting that anyone is going against them. Warnings, reproofs, counsel in that regard is given due consideration.

Club, you really need to study "An Appeal" by A.T. Jones from What Seventh-day Adventists Believe.

Don't miss it if you really want to know what happened in 1901 and 1903 taken from the General Conference Bulletins.

The present order of things is far from being sanctioned by God and the G.C. is far from being the "highest authority" on earth. There was a time when the G.C. in session was considered to be the voice of God but more than a century ago Mrs. White declared that it was no longer the case.

So I urge you to study that thread. It may appear to be a long thread but once you start reading, you won't be able to stop.

sky

[Overaged]

The present order of things is far from being sanctioned by God and the G.C. is far from being the "highest authority" on earth. There was a time when the G.C. in session was considered to be the voice of God but more than a century ago Mrs. White declared that it was no longer the case.

So I urge you to study that thread. It may appear to be a long thread but once you start reading, you won't be able to stop.

sky