Are Roman Catholics Correct about SDA: Part 2

[Overaged]

In order for us to get the drift of what she is saying here we must read from p.361 all the way to 366.

sky

Well you didn't quote even half that to give it "the drift;" so I would suggest that you show proof that she is directing that specifically at the current day GC, and then show how it relates to the OP

[skyblue888]

No I have not said that. I believe the Advent Movement was of God, that the prophecy of Daniel 8:14 ended on Oct.22,1844 and that we are the professed people of God even to this day but we are in great danger since we are repeating the history of ancient Israel and following in the track of Rome. But the parale of Matt.22 tells us that God in His mercy will cause the 1888 message to be repeated one more time in demonstration and power of the Holy Spirit, and that message includes the offer of mercy, the offer of pardon for having crucified the messages that had been entrusted to us as a people. The acceptance of that message would bring revival and reformation and re-organization within our ranks according to what the Lord revealed at the 1901 General Conference which principles were reversed at the 1903 General Conference and replaced by the devisings of men: men's constitutions with by-laws, policy book, resolutions, delegations, voting, etc etc See T.M.481.

sky

[skyblue888]

Why do I have to quote most of what is found between these pages from Testimonies to Ministers if you own a copy of the book?

But I will if you wish me to do this.

sky

[ClubV12]

In many respects I don't have an issue with what the Catholics have to say about Seventh-day Adventists. Much of it is correct. My attitude is basically, "Ok, I see your point, and whats the big deal?" It doesn't bother me.

"...the G.C. in session was considered to be the voice of God but more than a century ago Mrs. White declared that it was no longer the case."

I am somewhat familiar with A.T. Jones message and the 1901 conference, but I've not studied it in depth. As to your above statement; Ellen White declaring the GC as NO LONGER being the highest authority on earth, I've never seen that quote. I suspect she does not directly say that, but depending on how one views the quote one could come to that conclusion. Like the bible, much of what Ellen White says needs to be interpreted by much of what Ellen White says in other written material. Do you have a referrence for the quote you refer to as it concerns the GC?

I don't see any reason to quote "all those pages" from the Testimonies. I will use that as a basis for my study and read it myself. However, if you can point to a specific quote on the GC, I'd like to see it first.

[skyblue888]

It's been quoted by others many times on diff threads.

In the book Testimonies to Ministers she even said that she considered it blasphemy to say that the voice of the G.C. was the voice of God.

But let me quote from the 1901 G.C. Bulletin first:

"O, my very soul is drawn out in these things! Men who have not learned to submit to the control and disciple of God, are not competent to train the youth, to deal with human minds. It is just as much an impossibility for them to do this work as it would be for them to make a world. That these men should stand in a sacred place to be as the voice of God to the people, as we once believed the General Conference to be,--that is past. What we want is a re-organization. We want to begin at the foundation, and to build upon a different principle." E.G. White, 1901 G.C. Bulletin, p.25.

sky

*Club, in what way are you familiar with the 1901 G.C. conference lectures on re-organization by A.T. Jones?

[ClubV12]

It was one of many subjects I considered during my search for an understanding of righteouness by faith. It is impossible to study 1888 without considering 1901.

The 1901 Bulletin, pg 25, speaks directly to my question and is quite clear. I just finished reading Testimonies to Ministers 361-366 (and more) and while that counsel is very sharp and pointed it does not directly address the issue like the Bulletin quote does.

Now what to DO with that quote, what action, if any, is now required, how to address it in a practical meaningful way, well, thats another issue all together! "Going against" the GC for any reason is indeed a "serious matter" and should not be entertained lightly.

[skyblue888]

Going against the counsel of God as revealed in the 1903 General Conference Bulletin is indeed a most serious matter and should not be entertained lightly.

"God declares, 'I will be glorified in My people;' but the self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men. If you allow this to continue, your faith will soon become extinct." T.M.481.

This testimony was sent in 1907.

What are the devisings of men? Men's constitutions elect a man as president, a hierarchy, by-laws, resolutions, delegations, voting, etc etc

Like I said, Club, I really think it would be a good idea to study "An Appeal" by brother Jones.

sky

[ClubV12]

The question remains:

"Now what to DO with that quote, what action, if any, is now required, how to address it in a practical meaningful way...!"

One possible actionable answer is that when/if the GC issues an "order" that demands an action against the moral fiber of a member, he/she, like Luther, can do other but follow his conscience. Before I took that action, to outwardly and boldly declare my "disharmony" with the GC I would have to be convinced of several things first.

That I was not being presumptous, acting in a spirit of contention, enjoying the roll of being a "witness", or used of God in some manner and welcoming the controversy that is sure to follow. I do not want to knowingly assume the roll of a "martyr" for the truth. I do not want to bring contention and argument to Gods people. In other words, humility, a prayerful heart and a true sincere connection with Christ are fundamental. Sincere? Now theres an interesting word, we are told there will be some who are sincerely mistaken. Would that person be ME? If I was opposing the GC on some "rule"? These are not easy things to determine.

I have in fact looked at this issue with some depth, there is no easy cut and dried answer or action to be taken as a result. I can say this, Thank God, out of the study thus far, I have gained a knowledge of rightousness by faith!

[skyblue888]

Club, If you want to study this issue in depth you owe it to yourself to study "An Appeal" by A.T. Jones.

I have studied these issues for the last 30 years and "An Appeal" is an eye opener for all who are seeking for the truth and nothing but the truth. A.T. Jones wrote with candor and made a powerful appeal to the leaders. I believe he was imbued with the Spirit of the Lord.

For you to decide.

This material has been largely hidden from us but the time has come for the truth to be known.

You seem to be a fast learner. Please read it and study it for yourself and then we can discuss it.

sky :)

[Overaged]

Club, If you want to study this issue in depth you owe it to yourself to study "An Appeal" by A.T. Jones.

I have studied these issues for the last 30 years and "An Appeal" is an eye opener for all who are seeking for the truth and nothing but the truth. A.T. Jones wrote with candor and made a powerful appeal to the leaders. I believe he was imbued with the Spirit of the Lord.

For you to decide.

This material has been largely hidden from us but the time has come for the truth to be known.

You seem to be a fast learner. Please read it and study it for yourself and then we can discuss it.

sky

Who on earth has it been "hidden" by? You are so far off base here; it's hard to know where to begin, let alone try to stick to the OP' topic. The materials you speak about are so common and easily available; I don't know how you could hope to make that accusation fly.

[Overaged]

Why do I have to quote most of what is found between these pages from Testimonies to Ministers if you own a copy of the book?

But I will if you wish me to do this.

sky

No one even came close to saying you have to quote the whole thing; I was pointing out that what I said was no different than you because you just gave a brief quote, like me. You tried to say i was not stating it in context; then neither are you is what I was trying to point out. In other words, show how I stated the comment in question out of context.

[skyblue888]

Because the whole context is the General Conference leadership of the SDA church.

sky

[ClubV12]

Sky's point about "hidden documents" is not that far off base. It's only been relatively recently that "easy access" and more documents than ever have been made readily available. The internet has given us access like was never possible before.

...but the real question remains, and it is probably not a good idea to discuss it on an open forum: What NOW as it concerns the GC? WHAT does it all mean in terms of a practical application of truth?

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Every Catholic Priest is in "the person of Christ".....

Every Catholic Priest is a sinner and needs to repent of such self-righteous nonsense.

Quote:

...And matter of fact Christians are "little Christ's".

Christians are sinners saved by grace.

Every Catholic Priest is indeed a sinner and HAS TO REPENT....

....Where did you get the idea that Catholic Priests think they don't sin?

[Overaged]

Sky's point about "hidden documents" is not that far off base. It's only been relatively recently that "easy access" and more documents than ever have been made readily available. The internet has given us access like was never possible before.

...but the real question remains, and it is probably not a good idea to discuss it on an open forum: What NOW as it concerns the GC? WHAT does it all mean in terms of a practical application of truth?

It is totally off-base; and utterly unproveable. There is not one spec of evidence you could provide that would prove "hiding" of any such materials by the Church. It's one thing to have concerns or ask questions, but to just copy ideas from other "ministries" like this without verifying them is just plain wrong.

"Not a good idea to discuss on an open forum," eh? Well, so much for your charges of hiding stuff then. I guess you are thinking of showing us what not to do?

The real question is related to the OP. And the real answer is that The Roman Catholic Church is totally wrong about us on this count.

[Overaged]

quote=Sonny]quote=Gustave]Every Catholic Priest is in "the person of Christ"...../quote]

Every Catholic Priest is a sinner and needs to repent of such self-righteous nonsense.

quote]...And matter of fact Christians are "little Christ's"./quote]

Christians are sinners saved by grace.

/quote]

Every Catholic Priest is indeed a sinner and HAS TO REPENT....

....Where did you get the idea that Catholic Priests think they don't sin?

You are right Gustave; sometimes, some of us Adventists get some whacky ideas about you Roman Catholics. Thanks for putting up with us anyways and participating here.

[Sonny]

Every Catholic Priest is indeed a sinner and HAS TO REPENT........Where did you get the idea that Catholic Priests think they don't sin?

[ClubV12]

"It is totally off-base; and utterly unproveable."

It's common sense. Before the majority of EGW papers (which are vast) were published on the web access to anything not publish in written form was difficult to get. You had to travel to a few places where the documents were stored and have an idea of what to look for. It was not an easy task. Not all documents were readily available, unless you specifically asked for them. Even then, you might not get what you were looking for. The whole thing was rather tedious, many of the documents, effectively "hidden". Certainly not available to the general public!

Now, everyone has access to them, anyone with a keyboard. The access is extraordinary.

As in real life, some subjects are best left discussed privately. When it comes to "family", the problems, solutions, recommendations of "Uncle" or the GC or other Conferences qualify in that regard. I won't air out my family squabbles on line, but feel free to post all about yours if you think Auntie won't mind.

In the late 1800's the GC voted that no SDA printing house should publish controversial points of doctrine. This was the beginning of "hidden" documentation.

[Stan]

Are SDA's Correct about Roman Catholics?

[skyblue888]

Overaged, why are you in a defensive mode?

By "hidden" I did not necessarily mean that messages are deliberately hidden from us. What I meant by "hidden" is that the true meaning of the 1888 message is still elusive to the majority of adventists and what really happened in 1901 and 1903, just to mention these two years, is totally unknown by the majority of adventists today. Of course the material is available but how many of us have been directed to this material by the ministers and leading men? Can you tell? How many here on this forum have read and studied the contents of the General Conference Bulletins of those critical years? I will dare to say that not even one in one hundred have.

sky

You wrote: "To just copy ideas from other 'ministries' like this without verifying them is just plain wrong."

What ministries?

[Overaged]

Overaged, why are you in a defensive mode?

LOL; I would say accusing me of being "defensive" is being defensive. When will you be providing proof, rather than "logic" to support what you say about these writings being "hidden?"

[skyblue888]

By "hidden" I did not necessarily mean that messages are deliberately hidden from us. What I meant by "hidden" is that the true meaning of the 1888 message is still elusive to the majority of adventists and what really happened in 1901 and 1903, just to mention these two years, is totally unknown by the majority of adventists today. Of course the material is available but how many of us have been directed to this material by the ministers and leading men? Can you tell? How many here on this forum have read and studied the contents of the General Conference Bulletins of those critical years? I will dare to say that not even one in one hundred have.

Thats what I mean and not what you thought I meant.

sky

You wrote: "To just copy ideas from other 'ministries' like this without verifying them is just plain wrong."

What ministries?

[ClubV12]

Actually, I'll take it step farther than Sky.

Hidden from WHOM? Might be a better question.

As I mentioned earlier, the SDA printing offices were ordered, specifically in 1887, to not publish controversial material about the doctrines of the church. Certainly the "public" was denied access.

Today? Every controversial aspect of doctrine and documents are readily available to any and all.

The writings have been "unsealed". :)

[Gustave]

From you:

Well Sonny, I got that from the Bible.....

...Can you show me where you get your idea from?

2 Corinthians 2:10

To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

[Gustave]

You are right Gustave; sometimes, some of us Adventists get some whacky ideas about you Roman Catholics. Thanks for putting up with us anyways and participating here

No problem Overaged, perhaps that's why the Holy Spirit directed me here.