Are Roman Catholics Correct about SDA: Part 2

[Israfel]

What is your faith and beliefs Miz3?

[Sonny]

Well Sonny, I got that from the Bible.....

...Can you show me where you get your idea from?

2 Corinthians 2:10

To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ

10 If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And what I have forgiven--if there was anything to forgive--I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, 11 in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes. [NIV]

I can't even find your translation. Must be Catholic Bible???

[Gustave]

I can't even find your translation. Must be Catholic Bible???

Douay Rheims Bible...

...Did you look at the KJV?

...

John 20:22 Douay

When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained

John 20:22 KJVAnd when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained

2 Cor 2:10 KJV

To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

Douay

And to whom you have pardoned any thing, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned any thing, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ.

Here is the whole verse in context Sonny.

"Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you. And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord. He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained".

See Mark 2:10 Sonny....

...Did Christ have authority to forgive sins on earth?

...Yes or no?

[Sonny]

John 20:22 DouayWhen he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.Whose sins you [the disciples - not Priests] shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained

This will require a bit more study, but Christ said this His disciples only! To give Priests the same right is adding to the Bible.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

John 20:22 DouayWhen he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.Whose sins you [the disciples - not Priests] shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained

This will require a bit more study, but Christ said this His disciples only! To give Priests the same right is adding to the Bible.

Peter Addresses the Crowd

Acts 2:36...let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.

Sins are forgiven through the preaching of the gospel, accepted by faith. So those who reject the gospel remain under the cruse and unforgiven. This is the real meaning of forgiveness. Only the Godhead can forgiven sins.

[Gustave]

This will require a bit more study, but Christ said this His disciples only! To give Priests the same right is adding to the Bible.

The Bible explicitly states that there was "Apostolic Succession"...

...Therefore Apostolic Authority did not die with the death of the last Apostle who was selected via Christ.

[Sonny]

The Bible explicitly states that there was "Apostolic Succession"...

No it doesn't! Besides, after a little thought, the disciples taught forgiveness through the preaching of the gospel. This is how they, or anyone, can remit sin. It is Christ accepted by faith. Only Christ can forgive sins.

[Gustave]

Peter Addresses the Crowd

Acts 2:36...let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.

Sins are forgiven through the preaching of the gospel, accepted by faith. So those who reject the gospel remain under the cruse and unforgiven. This is the real meaning of forgiveness. Only the Godhead can forgiven sins.

I'm in 100% agreement with what you just said Sonny....

...That's Catholic teaching 101.

[skyblue888]

Sins may have been confessed and sent beforehand to judgment and be forgiven but they are not yet blotted out. They remain in the record books of the sanctuary until the final atonement when they will be blotted out if the individual passes the investigative judgment either of the dead or of the living.

This is the teaching of the Bible in the light of the sanctuary doctrine.

sky

[Sonny]

They remain in the record books (and hence "remembered") of the sanctuary until the final atonement when they will be blotted out if the individual passes the investigative judgment either of the dead or of the living.

Oh boy....

Heb 10:16 "This is the new covenant I will make with my people on that day, says the Lord: I will put my laws in their hearts so they will understand them, and I will write them on their minds so they will obey them." 17 Then he adds, "I will never again remember their sins and lawless deeds."

"Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more." NIV

Keeping a record is "remembering", right?

[Gustave]

The Bible explicitly states that there was "Apostolic Succession"...

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

They remain in the record books (and hence "remembered") of the sanctuary until the final atonement when they will be blotted out if the individual passes the investigative judgment either of the dead or of the living.

Oh boy....

Heb 10:16 "This is the new covenant I will make with my people on that day, says the Lord: I will put my laws in their hearts so they will understand them, and I will write them on their minds so they will obey them." 17 Then he adds, "I will never again remember their sins and lawless deeds."

"Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more." NIV

Keeping a record is "remembering", right?

Sonny, you need to take Sanctuary 101.

sky

[Sonny]

I don't buy the sanctuary message as SDA presents it. It's legalistic.

[Sonny]

Matt. 10:1,40 - Jesus declares to His apostles, "he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me." Jesus freely gives His authority to the apostles in order for them to effectively convert the world.

[Sonny]

The great, infallible Peter - your first Pope (according to your traditions). If Peter is the rock that's bad. Why? Jesus plainly states that Peter, the rock (?), is Satan if you take this literally. Of course I know it means that Peter was controlled of Satan.

Gal 2:11 When Peter came to Antioch, I [Paul] opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong.

Doesn't sound like Peter, a sinner saved by grace, was infallible. Why? Let's read on:

12 Before certain men (Judaizers) came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles (sinners). But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group (i.e., the Judaizers). 13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. 14 When I [Paul] saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? 15 "We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified

Peter slipped back into legalism, momentarily. Paul had to correct him. Peter, like all of us, are fallible. He was never a Pope. He was a sinner who grew in grace.

[Overaged]

Sonny; I see and appreciate what you are trying to do here. We have to tread carefully here; because official Roman Catholic teachings would tell you that Peter, and all the Popes were fallible; unless they spoke/taught doctrine, then it is called "excathedra" which means that when popes speak official dogma; it is "excathedra" or "infallible." I think that where their teaching on forgiveness of sin errs the most, is simply a gross, overall misunderstanding of the nature of the "authority" given to the Church. All of their doctrines soon lead to this aspect of their teachings.

Adventist doctrines have a central hub; if you will.

"There is one great central truth to be kept ever before the mind in the searching of the Scriptures--Christ and Him crucified. Every other truth is invested with influence and power corresponding to its relation to this theme. " (6BC, 1084)

The "hub" or central truth for Roman Catholic teachings is the perceived "authority" that God has given to their church only:

"The structure of Catholic faith may be summarized in a single sentence: I come to a living faith in the Triune God through Christ in His Church. I experience the action of the living God through Christ realizing Himself in His Church." (Karl Adams, The Spirit Of Catholicism, see chapter 4)

The nature of the Roman Catholic Church's PERCEIVED AUTHORITY is actually quite misunderstood by many Roman Catholics, and Protestants alike.

Quote:

“To the law and to the testimony.” While conflicting doctrines and theories abound, the law of God is the one unerring rule by which all opinions, doctrines, and theories are to be tested. Says the prophet, “If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” [isaiah 8:20.] {GC88 452.1}

[Sonny]

I understand their teachings on fallibility, but it really doesn't matter. Anyone who allows his self to be called "Holy Father" who claims to be "Vicar of Christ" must claim infallibility.

Here's Dictionary.com on "Vicar of Christ"

"The pope, with reference to his claim to stand in the place of Jesus Christ and possess His authority in the church."

[Sonny]

Let's go to Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one....12 there is no one who does good, not even one."

Now go to Matt 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good teacher, what good thing shall I do , that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God!

Keep in mind that this man, the RYR, thought of Christ not as the Son of God, but as a mere man. Hence his salutation: "Good teacher".

What did Christ say? "There is none good but one, that is God." Good and righteous are used interchangeably.

Now, for the Pope to be addressed as "Holy Father" is even more offensive. The Pope is a sinner. He's not holy, he's not righteous and he's not good. Only God are all these things.

[Sonny]

Here's Luther on the Pope:

The Pope is the Antichrist, because he is against Christ, because he takes liberties with the things of God, because he lords it over the temple of God.

I cannot tell you in words how criminal it is to seek righteousness before God without faith in Christ, by the works of the Law. It is the abomination standing in the holy place. It deposes the Creator and deifies the creature.

The real doers of the Law are the true believers. The Holy Spirit enables them to love God and their neighbor. But because we have only the first- fruits of the Spirit and not the tenth-fruits, we do not observe the Law perfectly. This imperfection of ours, however, is not imputed to us, for Christ's sake.

Hence, the statement of Moses, "Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them," is not contrary to Paul. Moses requires perfect doers of the Law. But where will you find them? Nowhere. Moses himself confessed that he was not a perfect doer of the Law. He said to the Lord: "Pardon our iniquity and our sin." Christ alone can make us innocent of any transgression. How so? First, by the forgiveness of our sins and the imputation of His righteousness. Secondly, by the gift of the Holy Ghost, who engenders new life and activity in us.

[Gustave]

The apostles were given the commission to preach the gospel. Naturally those who rejected the apostles rejected the gospel

Yes, Matthew 28,18.

"And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world".

That last sentence says Jesus will ALWAYS be with the Apostolic Authority...

...This was indeed confirmed in the 1st Chapter of Acts.

Acts 1

The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

The "commandments" God issued after He was "taken up" came through what medium Sonny?

As for your "context" points Jesus said He would "build a church"....

...And I've looked at and met the anti-Rock agruments on many forums.

...Feel free to start a thread on why / how Peter is not the Rock and I will jump right into it.

...My guess, the thread will make two or three pages.

...In the case of the now defunct "Amazing Discoveries Forums" they couldn't delete the thread fast enough.

[Overaged]

As for your "context" points Jesus said He would "build a church"....

...And I've looked at and met the anti-Rock agruments on many forums.

...Feel free to start a thread on why / how Peter is not the Rock and I will jump right into it.

...My guess, the thread will make two or three pages.

...In the case of the now defunct "Amazing Discoveries Forums" they couldn't delete the thread fast enough.

You are a little too confident Gustave! But I am glad you are here.

When Christ gave the Church "authority;" what does the Bible tell us about the nature of that "authority," and where does the Bible say it was given only to the Roman Catholic Church?

[Gustave]

You are a little too confident Gustave! But I am glad you are here.

[Sonny]

Sorry, Dude, I go though Christ alone. No Pope, no Pastor, no Ellen White....

[ClubV12]

Go it alone? Not exactly the way the early church was setup, or the present church for that matter. Not to mention the Lords appointed prophet for our time...

[Sonny]

Go it alone? Not exactly the way the early church was setup, or the present church for that matter. Not to mention the Lords appointed prophet for our time...

Sorry, Christ is sufficient. No church, pope, prophet, etc,...just Christ.