Are Roman Catholics Correct about SDA: Part 3

[miz3]

Adventist Beliefs

Seventh-Day Adventists agree with many Catholic doctrines, including the Trinity, Christ’s divinity, the virgin birth, the atonement, a physical resurrection of the dead, and Christ’s Second Coming. They use a valid form of baptism. They believe in original sin and reject the Evangelical teaching that one can never lose one’s salvation no matter what one does (i.e., they correctly reject "once saved, always saved").

Unfortunately, they also hold many false and strange doctrines. Among these are the following: (a) the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon; ( the pope is the Antichrist; © in the last days, Sunday worship will be "the mark of the beast"; (d) there is a future millennium in which the devil will roam the earth while Christians are with Christ in heaven; (e) the soul sleeps between death and resurrection; and (f) on the last day, after a limited period of punishment in hell, the wicked will be annihilated and cease to exist rather than be eternally damned. (For rebuttals of many of these ideas, see the Catholic Answers tracts, The Antichrist, The Hell There Is, Hunting the Whore of Babylon, The Whore of Babylon, and Sabbath or Sunday?)

Many Adventists insist that, as a matter of discipline (not doctrine), one must not eat meats considered unclean under the Mosaic Law (many endorse total vegetarianism), and one must avoid "worldly entertainments" (card-playing, dancing, smoking, drinking, reading non-religious books, listening to non-religious music, watching non-religious television, going to the movies, etc.).

Adventists also subscribe to the two Protestant shibboleths, sola scriptura (the Bible is the sole rule of faith) and sola fide (justification is by faith alone). Other Protestants, especially conservative Evangelicals and Fundamentalists, often attack Adventists on these points, claiming they do not really hold them, which is often used as "proof" that they are "a cult." However, along the spectrum of Protestantism (from high-church Lutherans and Anglicans to low-church Pentecostals and Baptists), there is little agreement about the meaning of these two phrases or about the doctrines they are supposed to represent.

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Again, are Roman Catholics correct in their views of SDA?

Part 4 to come later.

[BobRyan]

Adventist Beliefs

Seventh-Day Adventists agree with many Catholic doctrines, including the Trinity, Christ’s divinity, the virgin birth, the atonement, a physical resurrection of the dead, and Christ’s Second Coming. They use a valid form of baptism. They believe in original sin and reject the Evangelical teaching that one can never lose one’s salvation no matter what one does (i.e., they correctly reject "once saved, always saved").

[Sonny]

Sunday worship will be "the mark of the beast"

You have no idea what that means.....

[miz3]

What does it mean, Sonny?

[Sonny]

Adventist, and I know (been there, done that) believe the Mark of the Beast is Sunday keeping Vs. Sabbath keeping. In other words who has the right worship day.

[skyblue888]

Sunday keeping is the sign of the kingdom of man in the place of Christ in the church.

"The Sabbath of the Lord is the sign of the kingdom of God, and of God as true King in that true Kingdom of God. Sunday observance is the sign of the false kingdom of God, and of man as false king in the place of God. And everybody who does not know and have God to be his King in the true Kingdom, will compromise and will observe Sunday to satisfy the law and authority of man. In other words, everybody who recognizes man in the place of God anywhere, will receive the sign of man in the place of God, and will wear the sign either in his forehead or in his hand." A.T. Jones

sky

[miz3]

OK,

Is it correct then according to SDA:

1. The Roman Catholic Church is the Great Whore Babylon?

2. The Pope of the Roman Catholic Church is the AntiChrist?

3. Sunday worship, not Saturday worship, is the Mark of the Beast?

4. The Beast who makes the Mark of the Beast is the Roman Catholic Church?

[Sonny]

1. The Roman Catholic Church is the Great Whore Babylon?

[miz3]

Adventist, and I know (been there, done that) believe the Mark of the Beast is Sunday keeping Vs. Sabbath keeping. In other words who has the right worship day.

Yet you say the Mark of Beast has nothing to do with days of worship.

Please explain your quote above and your assertion below the quote. They seem to be contradictory.

[miz3]

[quote=miz3

1. The Roman Catholic Church is the Great Whore Babylon?

4. The Beast who makes the Mark of the Beast is the Roman Catholic Church?

[Sonny]

Please explain your quote above and your assertion below the quote. They seem to be contradictory.

When you look at the 4th commandment in Ex 20 or Deut 5 neither command is linked to worship.

[BobRyan]

When you look at the 4th commandment in Ex 20 or Deut 5 neither command is linked to worship.

Is 66 - "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship"

Lev 23 - The Seventh-day Sabbath is a "day of Holy Convocation".

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

OK,

Is it correct then according to SDA:

1. The Roman Catholic Church is the Great Whore Babylon?

2. The Pope of the Roman Catholic Church is the AntiChrist?

3. Sunday worship, not Saturday worship, is the Mark of the Beast?

4. The Beast who makes the Mark of the Beast is the Roman Catholic Church?

Points 1-3 are found in classic protestantism and in the SDA church (even Malachi Martin admits that these non-RCC groups teach this in his book "Keys of This Blood").

Point 4 is kind of correct.

1. We do not claim that the RCC sets up the image to the beast in Rev 13 - we say another group does that.

2. But the Mark of the Beast in Rev 13 and 14 is certainly a Mark that the RCC claims for its own as its "Mark" and sign of authority.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

[quote name='miz3

1. The Roman Catholic Church is the Great Whore Babylon?

4. The Beast who makes the Mark of the Beast is the Roman Catholic Church?

Ok' date=' the Roman Catholic Church has not yet fallen but the Roman Catholic Church will fall at some point in the future, correct and as such is the Great Whore Babylon?

Is or is not the Beast the Roman Catholic Church?

[/quote']

No. the RCC has fallen.

The RCC is a part of Babylon and has fallen.

The impure woman (doctrinally speaking of course) of Rev 17 is the confusion of the many Christian doctrinal differences and denominations of which the RCC is one.

But to the extent that the title "the mother of impure women" is used - the idea is that the false doctrines in the RCC are the source of the false doctrines taken by the protesting-Catholics that left the RCC and tried to reform and rid themselves of those false doctrines. They succeeded in many respects but still clung to a few of the falsehoods in each case.

It is Babylon in its fullest sense (the confusion of Christian denominations) that has not yet fallen.

in Christ,

Bob

[miz3]

Thank you BobRyan!

[skyblue888]

It is Babylon in its fullest sense (the confusion of Christian denominations) that has not yet fallen.

Bob

________________________________________

Bob, you are right in saying that the Catholic church has long been fallen and that Babylon (the confusion of Christian denominations) in its fullest sense has not yet fallen.

Yet, these various Christian denominations had a fall in the summer of 1844 at the time when the second angel's message of Rev.14:8, "Babylon is fallen," sounded. This was not Babylon in its fullest sense but nevertheless these churches fell as they rejected the first angel's message.

In the book The Great Controversy, p.603, Mrs. White quotes Rev.18:1,2,4 and then says,

"This Scripture points forward to a time when the annnouncement of the fall of Babylon, as made by the second angel of Revelation 14 (verse 8), is to be repeated with the additional mention of the corruptions which have been entering the various organizations that constitute Babylon, since that message was first given, in the summer of 1844."

So these various "Christian" organizations or denominations are already fallen.

The "angel" of Rev.18:1-5 announces that Babylon the Great is fallen but that won't happen until her sins have reached unto heaven (verse 5) and that won't be present truth until the law of God is made void in the land by the enforcement of Sunday as the day of worship for all.

sky

[Gerr]

In addition to Bob's comment, let me add:

"Unfortunately, they also hold many false and strange doctrines. Among these are the following: (a) the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon; ( the pope is the Antichrist; © in the last days, Sunday worship will be "the mark of the beast"; (d) there is a future millennium in which the devil will roam the earth while Christians are with Christ in heaven; (e) the soul sleeps between death and resurrection; and (f) on the last day, after a limited period of punishment in hell, the wicked will be annihilated and cease to exist rather than be eternally damned. (For rebuttals of many of these ideas, see the Catholic Answers tracts, The Antichrist, The Hell There Is, Hunting the Whore of Babylon, The Whore of Babylon, and Sabbath or Sunday?)"

These are not "false and strange doctrines," these are Biblical truths. The "fase and strange doctrines" that have been assimilated into the RCC from paganism are: worship of the saints, idols, mariolatry (nothing less than the worship of the queen of heaven), forever punishment of the lost in an eternally burning hell, and of their own invention purgatory, limbo, infant baptism, no salvation outside the RCC, the pope as God on earth, papal infallibility, the mass, usurpation of Christ's heavenly priestly ministry with their own priests, the inquisition, putting tradition on par if not above Scripture, indulgenses, salvation that is partly of works. I probably missed a few more.

[Gail]

The Adventist church doesn't have a monopoly on the belief that the RCC is anti-Christ. Check out the Reformers... They believed it way before the Adventist movement came along

Besides, the Bible says that there are many anti-Christs (1 John 2:18)

[BobRyan]

A little-remembered detail easily forgotten is this -

Satan’s Lying Wonders PRECEDE the Fall of Bablyon mentioned in the 2nd Angel’s message that is future .

Quote:

The second angel's message of Revelation 14 was first preached in the summer of 1844, and it then had a more direct application to the churches of the United States, where the warning of the judgment had been most widely proclaimed and most generally rejected, and where the declension in the churches had been most rapid. But the message of the second angel did not reach its complete fulfillment in 1844. The churches then experienced a moral fall, in consequence of their refusal of the light of the advent message; but that fall was not complete. As they have continued to reject the special truths for this time they have fallen lower and lower. Not yet, however, can it be said that "Babylon is fallen,... because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." She has not yet made all nations do this. The spirit of world conforming and indifference to the testing truths for our time exists and has been gaining ground in churches of the Protestant faith in all the countries of Christendom; and these churches are included in the solemn and terrible denunciation of the second angel. But the work of apostasy has not yet reached its culmination. {GC 389.2}

GC 389

The Bible declares that before the coming of the Lord, Satan will work "with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness;" and they that "received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved," will be left to receive "strong delusion, that they should believe a lie." 2 Thessalonians 2:9-11. Not until this condition shall be reached, and the union of the church with the world shall be fully accomplished throughout Christendom, will the fall of Babylon be complete. The change is a progressive one, and the perfect fulfillment of Revelation 14:8 is yet future. {GC 389.3}

Only those who have been diligent students of the Scriptures and who have received the love of the truth will be shielded from the powerful delusion that takes the world captive. By the Bible testimony these will detect the deceiver in his disguise. To all the testing time will come. By the sifting of temptation the genuine Christian will be revealed. Are the people of God now so firmly established upon His word that they would not yield to the evidence of their senses? Would they, in such a crisis, cling to the Bible and the Bible only? {Mar 160.6} {GC88 625.2} {GC 625.3}

[BobRyan]

That "little detail" above is hugely significant for SDAs.

It means that "instead" of a great Sunday Law debate suddenly bursting on the scene out of thin air - or even out of natural disasters or out of civil unrest - what actually happens is something like the lying signs and wonders of Satan appear - and THEN it guides the U.S. into connecting the NSL issue with disasters, the economy etc.

(Hint - notice that we are experiencing some extreme high-level disaster frequency since Katrina and even before that time - and yet STILL NO wimper from the NSL group of any significance. In fact if anything more bluelaws are being set ASIDE each decade - state by state rather than adopted or revived - my state was one of the two last holdouts in favor of the bluelaws and it too is now dropping support for it at the state level as of this year!).

And also note - that when we so often claim that it is spiritualism (as in talking to the dead) that gets everybody pointed to the NSL - that is fact not what is going on. (At least not directly). What is happening is that Spiritualism "in a new form' is pointing people that direction - yet we ignore it because it is not in the traditional occultic or seance form so long in use in the dark ages.

We have missed the key point that Satan "adapts" his strategy to fit the culture.

We are about to be blind-sided in this "if possible fool the very elect" thing that is coming up.

To see the new form of signs-and-wonders spiritualism that is rising, adapted to our science and discovery based culture and is taking the world by storm (yet we are silent as mice about it) - click this 8 minute link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB-jikoNVpQ

in Christ,

Bob

[Gerr]

The Adventist church doesn't have a monopoly on the belief that the RCC is anti-Christ. Check out the Reformers... They believed it way before the Adventist movement came along

Besides, the Bible says that there are many anti-Christs (1 John 2:18)

VERY true!

[Dr. Rich]

The Adventist church doesn't have a monopoly on the belief that the RCC is anti-Christ. Check out the Reformers... They believed it way before the Adventist movement came along

Besides, the Bible says that there are many anti-Christs (1 John 2:18)

Thanks Gail. John said they 'went out from us but were not really with us". So who is John talking about here? Why didn't John name them?

And someone please tell me how the Roman Catholic church fell? Fell from what? Since when was this church ever correct? Did it fall twice as Revelation points out?

Did you know that even EGW pointed out that the Catholic church could NOT possibly be what is called 'Babylon' as they were never righteous? And Ballinger admitted he 'corrected' the GC to read that Babylon was the Catholic Church?

The ONLY group that were considered righteous and fell twice was Israel/Jews. After all, were is this 'Great City'? Isn't it in the same place where they killed Jesus?

And of course the National Sunday Law being the same as the "Mark of the Beast" is a false and mistaken idea that can't be supported from Daniel or the book of Revelation.

[BobRyan]

It appears that when Rich is not totally in error - he is merely promoting half-truths.

Well I guess that is "something".

Here is what Ellen White said about "Babylon" as the RCC and also as apostate Christendom's various doctrinal errors.

Quote:

The woman, Babylon, of Revelation 17, is described as

"arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and

precious stones . . . and upon her forehead was a name written,

Mystery, Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots." . . . Babylon is further declared to be "that great city, which reineth over the

kings of the earth." The power that for so many centuries

maintained despotic sway over the monarchs of Christendom, is

Rome. {6BIO 327.1}

By her daughters must be symbolized churches that cling to

her doctrines and traditions, and follow her example of

sacrificing the truth and the approval of God, in order to form an

unlawful alliance with the world.--Pages 382, 383. {6BIO 327.3}

The message of Revelation 14, announcing the fall of

Babylon, must apply to religious bodies that were once pure and

have become corrupt. Since this message follows the warning of

the judgment, it must be given in the last days; therefore it

cannot refer to the Roman Church alone, for that church has

been in a fallen condition for many centuries.--Page 383. {6BIO 327.5}

Ellen White points out that Rome does not fall at the first or second angels message - but was already in the fallen state of Babylon and is the mother of other churches that will fall in response to the 3 Angel's messages.

in Christ,

Bob

[Sonny]

Is 66 - "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" [added note: This refers to the Sabbath in the new earth]

Lev 23 - The Seventh-day Sabbath is a "day of Holy Convocation". [added note: theses Sabbaths are the old feast-days]

in Christ,

Bob

When you look at the 4th commandment in Ex 20 or Deut 5 neither command is linked to worship. Quoting outside the moral law is adding.

[Sonny]

No. the RCC has fallen.

Well, well, Ellen White wholeheartedly disagrees with you:

Not yet, however, can it be said that "Babylon is fallen,... because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." She has not yet made all nations do this. The spirit of world conforming and indifference to the testing truths for our time exists and has been gaining ground in churches of the Protestant faith in all the countries of Christendom; and these churches are included in the solemn and terrible denunciation of the second angel. But the work of apostasy has not yet reached its culmination. [CG chapter 21, 389

Babylon has not fully fallen because the third angel's message has not yet been preach. Currently there are at least 5 gospels within Adventism. Will the real gospel please stand up.

I'll tell you this, Historic/Traditional Adventism does not know or present the gospel. These Adventist have more in common with Roman & salvation by faith plus works. This isn't the gospel.