Are Roman Catholics Correct about SDA: Part 3

[phkrause]

If the Sabbath is written in the heart then all believers would know through their consciences that the Sabbath is the 7th-day, period!

Yes exactly, the Sabbath is the 7th day!!!! Has been from the creation of this Earth!!!! Thanks for verify that point.

[Sonny]

James 2 - "So live as those who are to be judged BY the Law of Liberty" which says "Do not commit adultery" and "Do not murder" for "he who is guilty of one is guilty of all".

If the law is going to be your judge you can kiss your butt goodbye! Why? "There is none righteous, no, not even one." "All have sinned & fall short of the glory of God (His agape love)"

The law of liberty is not the law! Let's look:

8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

Noticed that as a believer you are not condemned, but instead the law points you to Christ. You are convicted. If binding you would stand condemned!

10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

Again, the law better not be binding because one sin will keep you out of heaven. Forgiveness is not keeping the law...it's failing!

11 For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

Again, the law points out sin. Notice nothing about the Sabbath.

12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

The royal law and the law of liberty are not the same. To be under law is to be under bondage:

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

What then is the law of liberty?

2 Cor 2:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones....17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord (his agape), are being transformed into the same image ....

The law of liberty is Lord. You will be judged by Jesus. He is your righteousness.

[cheddar]

Sonny, I agree with almost everything your saying but you can’t beat people over the head with the truth. Nobody likes that. I know because my wife tells me I need to learn the same thing. All we can do is present our case and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. It’s his job to convict of sin and righteousness and he’s a lot better at it than we are.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

If the Sabbath is written in the heart then all believers would know through their consciences that the Sabbath is the 7th-day, period!

Yes exactly, the Sabbath is the 7th day!!!! Has been from the creation of this Earth!!!! Thanks for verify that point.

You aren't reading! If God writes the Sabbath on the heart all Sunday-keeping Christians would keep the Sabbath because they would know it in their consciences!

[Sonny]

John 14:15 Jesus' pre-cross teaching on the Law and Grace "If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments".

Nothing about it being binding. It simply says if you love keep my commandments. It's the aim, but the reality is none of us are living Christ's life!

[Sonny]

Sonny, I agree with almost everything your saying but you can’t beat people over the head with the truth.

Am I doing this?

[cheddar]

Originally Posted By: cheddar

Sonny, I agree with almost everything your saying but you can't beat people over the head with the truth.

Am I doing this?

When you have to scroll 3 times to read a post you probably are.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

So are you saying that since nobody is in perfect obedience or living Christ's life that therefore there's no point in obeying God's commandments?

No, I never said that.

Romans 7:6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, [we died in the body of Christ - see Rom 6:6, 7:4] we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Read the preceeding verses! Who is released from the law? The one who dies to the law! You can't be dead to the law if you keep WILLFULLY breaking breaking the law. If you are breaking the law, that means you are still married to it, and therefore bound to the law or a prisoner of the law. When the believer walks in the Spirit, what happens? ESV | Ga 5:16 "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh." And these are: ESV | Ga 5:19 "Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

To stop living according to the flesh is to stop breaking God's commandments!

Walking in the Spirit means: ESV | Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

James makes it clear - faith without works is DEAD! And Paul says that true faith works through love. And John makes it clear that if we say, "I know Him" but don't keep His commandments, we are liars.

[BobRyan]

1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the law of God by our faith - God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

Eph 6:2 says that the 5th commandment is binding and is the first commandment with a promise -- in that list of Ten.

James 2 - "So live as those who are to be judged BY the Law of Liberty" which says "Do not commit adultery" and "Do not murder" for "he who is guilty of one is guilty of all".

1John 2 says that the one who claims to know Jesus but does not keep His commandment is a liar.

Heb 8 says that under the New Covenant the Law of God is written on the heart.

1Cor 6 says that we are not to be deceived into thinking that Christians engaging in rebellion against God's law will go to heaven.

John 14:15 Jesus' pre-cross teaching on the Law and Grace "If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments".

No wonder you struggle with the details of Ex 20 where God says that the Gen 1-2:3 facts "alone" make the Sabbath binding on mankind and Mark 2:27 where Jesus says that at the MAKING of the Sabbath day - it was MADE for MANKIND.

Rom 2:13-16 "For it is not the HEARERS of the law that are JUST before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE justiFIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge the secrets of all mankind"

Sonny - I notice that when you address these texts you come at it from the POV of the lost as you deny each text claiming that to be called to obey the law would mean that you must live a sinless life - so that you do not need a savior. That is the "obey and live" model of the Old covenant under which the lost person is living to this very day.

In these texts the Bible is addressing the saved saint - but you keep approaching it from the classic Bible POV of the lost person. Why do you keep doing that?

1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the law of God by our faith - God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

in Christ,

Bob

[Sonny]

Who is released from the law? The one who dies to the law! You can't be dead to the law if you keep WILLFULLY breaking breaking the law.

Come on Gerry, be honest. Where did your humanity die? Romans 7:4 You died to the law (it demanded your death) in the body of Christ.

When you accepted this then you were "released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound"....(Rom 7:6)

[Sonny]

Rom 2:13-16 "For it is not the HEARERS of the law that are JUST before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE justiFIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge the secrets of all mankind"

Let's back up:

11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law...

The law doesn't care if you don't know about it, if you sin you'll perish.

and as many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

If you have a knowledge law it doesn't matter. If you sin under law you will be judged - this means you will be condemned. Why? It doesn't matter if you hear the law being read, if you want to be saved by law you must do the law to be justified. That's what Paul is saying.

Clearly no one can be justified by the law:

Gal 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace (i.e., you've had it...you're lost).

[BobRyan]

1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the law of God by our faith - God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

Eph 6:2 says that the 5th commandment is binding and is the first commandment with a promise -- in that list of Ten.

James 2 - "So live as those who are to be judged BY the Law of Liberty" which says "Do not commit adultery" and "Do not murder" for "he who is guilty of one is guilty of all".

1John 2 says that the one who claims to know Jesus but does not keep His commandment is a liar.

Heb 8 says that under the New Covenant the Law of God is written on the heart.

1Cor 6 says that we are not to be deceived into thinking that Christians engaging in rebellion against God's law will go to heaven.

John 14:15 Jesus' pre-cross teaching on the Law and Grace "If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments".

No wonder you struggle with the details of Ex 20 where God says that the Gen 1-2:3 facts "alone" make the Sabbath binding on mankind and Mark 2:27 where Jesus says that at the MAKING of the Sabbath day - it was MADE for MANKIND.

Rom 2:13-16 "For it is not the HEARERS of the law that are JUST before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE justiFIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge the secrets of all mankind"

Sonny - I notice that when you address these texts you come at it from the POV of the lost as you deny each text claiming that to be called to obey the law would mean that you must live a sinless life - so that you do not need a savior. That is the "obey and live" model of the Old covenant under which the lost person is living to this very day.

In these texts the Bible is addressing the saved saint - but you keep approaching it from the classic Bible POV of the lost person. Why do you keep doing that?

1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the law of God by our faith - God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

[miz3]

I look around at those who claim to be "born again" and I see lots of law breaking!

Are you really "born again" if you don't keep all of the Law?

If you believe that the Law must be kept 100% then you are not "born again" until you keep ALL THE LAW!

I think Sonny is on to something here.

[fccool]

What law are you talking about here? There were multiple laws given to multiple generations of pre-Hebrews, Hebrews and post-Hebrews. How about this law?

Whoever rebels against the laws of the land shall be put to death. Josh. 1:18 ? Should we keep that one? Why not?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Who is released from the law? The one who dies to the law! You can't be dead to the law if you keep WILLFULLY breaking breaking the law.

Come on Gerry, be honest. Where did your humanity die? Romans 7:4 You died to the law (it demanded your death) in the body of Christ.

When you accepted this then you were "released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound"....(Rom 7:6)

Are you charging me with dishonesty?

Paul says: ESV | Ro 7:4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.

You are right, we die to the law through the body of Christ. How does that happen? Paul again makes that clear:

ESV | Ro 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

To be baptized into Christ Jesus is symbolic of dying with Christ. Dying with Christ is dying to sin. And dying to sin means you no longer LIVE in sin. There is a world of difference between living in sin and inadvertent/unintentional sinning. So spare that red herring about not living Christ's life. And Paul clearly says that when the believer rises from the watery grave, he is to "walk in newness of life." Paul's argument in Rom 7:1 is that as long as one is alive, he/she is bound to the law of marriage. The only way that one is released from that law is for one to die, otherwise he/she would be guilty of adultery. If a believer continious to break the law, that means he/she has not died to sin or to the law, and therefore still bound to the law. That's why Jesus said, "No man can serve two masters..." That would be spiritual adultery.

Living in the spirit is denying the desires of the flesh and obeying the commandments that God writes in the heart - ALL 10 or the principles of the 10. Does God write all 10 immediately and simultaneously? Since sanctification is a lifetime process, I suspect that this is also a gradual process.

[Sonny]

I think Sonny is on to something here.

Thank you.

[Sonny]

I look around at those who claim to be "born again" and I see lots of law breaking!

Do you know anyone who seeks not their own wealth, but another's wealth?

"You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth." [DA 439]

Do you know anyone who never even thinks of his or herself, but instead lives for those around them?

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

Do you know anyone who thinks not, plans not, lives not for her or himself?

"Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself." [EGW]

I don't! Therefore if we are going to be under the binding, jurisdiction of the law we've had it!

This does not negate growth. Genuine faith produces a change in the lifestyle.

[Sonny]

Are you charging me with dishonesty?

[BobRyan]

What law are you talking about here? There were multiple laws given to multiple generations of pre-Hebrews, Hebrews and post-Hebrews. How about this law?

Whoever rebels against the laws of the land shall be put to death. Josh. 1:18 ? Should we keep that one? Why not?

Civil laws end when the civil government ends or is subjigated - obviously.

The theocracy of Israel ended a long time ago - but it is coming back in the New Earth if you want to see a case where sin will bring about death and not forgiveness.

in Christ,

Bbo

[BobRyan]

Paul says: ESV | Ro 7:4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.

You are right, we die to the law through the body of Christ. How does that happen? Paul again makes that clear:

ESV | Ro 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

To be baptized into Christ Jesus is symbolic of dying with Christ. Dying with Christ is dying to sin. And dying to sin means you no longer LIVE in sin. There is a world of difference between living in sin and inadvertent/unintentional sinning. So spare that red herring about not living Christ's life. And Paul clearly says that when the believer rises from the watery grave, he is to "walk in newness of life." Paul's argument in Rom 7:1 is that as long as one is alive, he/she is bound to the law of marriage. The only way that one is released from that law is for one to die, otherwise he/she would be guilty of adultery. If a believer continious to break the law, that means he/she has not died to sin or to the law, and therefore still bound to the law. That's why Jesus said, "No man can serve two masters..." That would be spiritual adultery.

Living in the spirit is denying the desires of the flesh and obeying the commandments that God writes in the heart - ALL 10 or the principles of the 10. Does God write all 10 immediately and simultaneously? Since sanctification is a lifetime process, I suspect that this is also a gradual process.

Well said.

in Christ,

Bob

[Sonny]

But it's not the gospel and it's not what the NC Sabbath points to. Sanctification is progressive...it is always unfinished, where as what Christ did in our humanity is a finished work.