Are Roman Catholics Correct about SDA: Part 3

[BobRyan]

skyblue888,

Pastor chick and his church think you are wrong and they also think that they, Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church are now the true remnant.

Why are they wrong?

miz3

______________________________

The CSDA people teach that the judgment of the living began in 1988 when they were taken to court by the SDA church for trademark lawsuit.

[BobRyan]

The Is 66 text says that in the New Earth ALL MANKIND comes before God to Worship - the intent of Sabbath is worship in the New Earth.

Lev 23 says that the Seventh-day Sabbath is a "day of holy convocation" -- thus the intent even at the time of Sinai for Sabbath - was worship.

The Sabbath was and is and will be forever - a day of worship.

How do you suppose these Bible texts refute the very case they explicitly make - is a mystery to all.

And of course - Christ in Mark 2 says that the "Sabbath was MADE for mankind" at its Making.

Those who continually reject the Bible on these points will find a lot of the Bible difficult to understand.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

These Sabbaths were done away at the cross because they were fulfilled in Christ.

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

You need to be apart of the NC

Only the "Shadow Sabbaths" where done away with - those that are based on animal sacrifice and so point forward in time. "Christ our passover has been slain" 1Cor 5.

That which God Himself calls the 7th day memorial of creation - remains in fact as we see in Is 66 it remains for all of eternity.

Col 2 is not talking about anything ended at the cross. It is talking about the Matt 7 pre-cross principle "do not judge lest you be judged".

in Christ,

Bob

[skyblue888]

Amen to that.

sky

[Sonny]

Only the "Shadow Sabbaths" where done away with - those that are based on animal sacrifice and so point forward in time. "Christ our passover has been slain" 1Cor 5.

[miz3]

Sonny,

Does this mean that the Seventh day of the week is not to be kept as a Sabbath?

Are you saying that the Exodus chapter 20 and the Deuteronomy chapter 5 "law" is now done away with and no longer binding?

[Sonny]

Does this mean that the Seventh day of the week is not to be kept as a Sabbath?

[miz3]

Sonny,

If we don't have to keep the Exodus chapter 20 law and the Deuteronomy chapter 5 law in regard to the Sabbath, do we have to keep all the other commandments mentioned thereto?

It seems to me I can go about committing adultery, lying, stealing and that's OK because I am no longer under the Law but under Grace as you state (Colossians chapter two).

Is this your position?

[Sonny]

If we don't have to keep

[Sonny]

Now, where's the Sabbath in here?

In the NT, under the NC, the Sabbath is not connected to the law. It's connected to the gospel!!!

In Hebrews 4:9,10, Paul says:

"...there is still a Sabbath-keeping for the people of God [i.e., the Jews]. For the one (Jew or Gentile) who has entered God's rest has also rested from his own works, as God did from his."

Weren't the Jews of Christ's time keeping the Sabbath? Yes, but their Sabbath keeping was meaningless! Why? Because they thought they could gain heaven through the keeping of the Sabbath. This is OC and it perverts the true meaning of the sabbath.

[Sonny]

In the NT, under the NC, the Sabbath is not connected to the law. It's connected to the gospel!!!

In Hebrews 4:9,10, Paul says:

"...there is still a Sabbath-keeping for the people of God [i.e., the Jews]. For the one (Jew or Gentile) who has entered God's rest has also rested from his own works, as God did from his."

Weren't the Jews of Christ's time keeping the Sabbath? Yes, but their Sabbath keeping was meaningless! Why? Because they thought they could gain heaven through the keeping of the Sabbath. This is OC and it perverts the true meaning of the sabbath.

I'm going to transfer this to "How does doing no work on the Sabbath make it holy?" It's a bit off this thread's subject.

[miz3]

Sonny,

To me the New Covenant and the Old Covenant are the same. There is no difference between the two covenants. God is the same today as He was yesterday.

That is where your problem is.

[phkrause]

Sonny,

To me the New Covenant and the Old Covenant are the same. There is no difference between the two covenants. God is the same today as He was yesterday.

That is where your problem is.

Excellent point miz3. The biggest difference is now God has written it in our hearts.

[Sonny]

Sonny,

To me the New Covenant and the Old Covenant are the same. There is no difference between the two covenants. God is the same today as He was yesterday.

That is where your problem is.

Disagree,

The old covenant is obey & live, disobey & die. That would mean that the NC is the same.

[Sonny]

The biggest difference is now God has written it in our hearts.

God writes in our heart the essence of the last 6 commandments. If God writes the Sabbath in the heart that would mean all Sunday-keepers are knowingly & persistently going against God's will. They would know it in their conscience, just like they know it's wrong to steal, commit adultery, kill, etc.

[Sonny]

In the NT, every time the commandments are brought up, the Sabbath isn't mentioned:

Mark 10:19 You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Do not defraud,' 'Honor your father and your mother.'"

Rom 13:9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

1Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Cor 6:9 Don't you know that evil people will not receive God's kingdom? Don't be fooled. Those who commit sexual sins will not receive the kingdom. Neither will those who worship statues of gods or commit adultery. Neither will men who are prostitutes or who commit homosexual acts. 10 Neither will thieves or those who always want more and more [greedy]. Neither will those who are often drunk or tell lies or cheat. People who live like that will not receive God's kingdom.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Sonny,

To me the New Covenant and the Old Covenant are the same. There is no difference between the two covenants. God is the same today as He was yesterday.

That is where your problem is.

Disagree,

The old covenant is obey & live, disobey & die. That would mean that the NC is the same.

We have the option to remain dead in trespasses and sins or to be made alive by the quickening of the Spirit, in which case we will not only keep the law but we'll exhibit the fruit of the Spirit as well.

So it's really "live and obey" vs "stay dead and disobey."

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

The biggest difference is now God has written it in our hearts.

God writes in our heart the essence of the last 6 commandments. If God writes the Sabbath in the heart that would mean all Sunday-keepers are knowingly & persistently going against God's will. They would know it in their conscience, just like they know it's wrong to steal, commit adultery, kill, etc.

That is not quite true.

A great many Sunday keepers (including R.C Sproul today) firmly believe they are supposed to honor the Sabbath and that the Sabbath FROM CREATION WEEK is applicable to all mankind. He is confused by man-made-tradition into thinking that the Sabbath was changed from the 7th day to the 1st day at the cross - but he is fully convinced he is supposed to keep it.

The same was true of D.L Moody and the same is true of most Catholic scholars and teachers for many centuries.

It is only a relatively recent minority of Christians in more recent times that have "invented" the idea of breaking the Sabbath as if it were "a good thing".

David had multiple wives - and wrote sections of the Bible. We cannot conclude from that that God does NOT include the writing of His Law on the heart. The argument against the Bible can never be of the form "many people choose to ignore that text".

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

The Sabbath is not a memorial of creation.

Hint. Ex 20:8-11

"REMEMBER" the Sabbath day --

FOR IN SIX days the LORD MADE the heavens and the earth

THEREFORE the Lord BLESSEd the Sabbath day and MADE it Holy.

It just doesn't get any easier than that.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

The biggest difference is now God has written it in our hearts.

God writes in our heart the essence of the last 6 commandments. If God writes the Sabbath in the heart that would mean all Sunday-keepers are knowingly & persistently going against God's will. They would know it in their conscience, just like they know it's wrong to steal, commit adultery, kill, etc.

Ah, Robert! Can't you see that when a person's well-being is on the line, the last 6c have little force without the first 4?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Sonny,

To me the New Covenant and the Old Covenant are the same. There is no difference between the two covenants. God is the same today as He was yesterday.

That is where your problem is.

Disagree,

The old covenant is obey & live, disobey & die. That would mean that the NC is the same.

And where in the NC does it say that we can disobey God and still live?

[BobRyan]

The New Covenant (Jer 31:33 and Heb 8) promises forgiveness of sins and adoption by God as well as the New Heart - new Birth.

Gal 1:6-11 says that this is the ONE and ONLY GOSPEL that was in effect even in the OT.

Heb 4 says that the "Gospel was preached to US JUST as it was to them ALSO".

The New Covenenat went into effect in Gen 3.

The old covenant "Obey and Live" was the rule of Genesis 2. Today those who are lost -- are lost under the Old Covenant because without Christ they are under the "obey and live" rule which they cannot fulfill - so they stand condemned.

in Christ,

Bob

[Sonny]

So it's really "live and obey" vs "stay dead and disobey."

Obey? And you are living Christ's life of self-denial? Are you living solely for others - as in the servant of all? Or are you living with yourself in mind? Christ thought not, lived not, planned not for Himself to the point of having no place to lay His head. Are you that selfless too? I think not! So if you want to obey in order to get heaven, you'll never make it.

[Sonny]

God writes in our heart the essence of the last 6 commandments. If God writes the Sabbath in the heart that would mean all Sunday-keepers are knowingly & persistently going against God's will. They would know it in their conscience, just like they know it's wrong to steal, commit adultery, kill, etc.

[Sonny]

And where in the NC does it say that we can disobey God and still live?

God is looking for faith. He didn't come to call the self-righteous, but sinners. If you are living Christ's life then you are obeying the law, if not you are disobeying. Understand?