Are Roman Catholics Correct about SDA: Part 3

[Sonny]

The New Covenant (Jer 31:33 and Heb 8) promises forgiveness of sins and adoption by God as well as the New Heart - new Birth.

Gal 1:6-11 says that this is the ONE and ONLY GOSPEL that was in effect even in the OT

Here's the problem with Tradition, Historic Adventism. They present heresy...a false gospel. The gospel isn't what you do...or Christ in you, that's sanctification - the fruit of the gospel.

For the billionth time the gospel is what Christ did 2000 years ago in our humanity. It's the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ as the Son of mankind and the Son of God. Add anything to this and you are doing to things:

1] You are perverting the gospel

2] You aren't keeping the Sabbath

[Sonny]

The Sabbath is not a memorial of creation.

[Sonny]

We are back to a central issue that no one has answered:

Why do you rest from you normal work on the Sabbath? What does "doing no work" mean symbolically?

[Gerr]

We are back to a central issue that no one has answered:

Why do you rest from you normal work on the Sabbath? What does "doing no work" mean symbolically?

It's been answered many times in the past. You just refuse the answers as non-answers because they don't suit you! Here are the reasons again:

1. To do no regular work on the Sabbath is to acknowledge that God is the Creator.

2. To do no regular work on the Sabbath is to obey His command. And there is no higher form of worship that we can render to our Creator than to obey His commands.

3. To do no regular work on the Sabbath is to acknowledge that as Creator, He has the right to command.

4. To do no regular work on the Sabbath is to acknowledge that He ALONE can make me holy. That means He alone can justify me, sanctify me, and cleanse me from sin.

5. To do no regular work on the Sabbath is setting aside time for fellowship with other believers for worship, contemplation, celebration

6. Others can add their own reasons...

[Sonny]

1. To do no regular work on the Sabbath is to acknowledge that God is the Creator.

[skyblue888]

"Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy..." and "Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect" are two promises if received as the voice of God speaking to the soul, as opposed to receiving them as the word of God merely written. Merely written they are as destitute of the Holy Spirit as were the hills of Gilboa without dew or rain.

sky

[Sonny]

"Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy..." and "Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect" are two promises if received as the voice of God speaking to the soul, as opposed to receiving them as the word of God merely written. Merely written they are as destitute of the Holy Spirit as were the hills of Gilboa without dew or rain.

sky

You really didn't say anything, Sky. No disrespect meant....

[BobRyan]

"Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy..." and "Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect" are two promises if received as the voice of God speaking to the soul, as opposed to receiving them as the word of God merely written. Merely written they are as destitute of the Holy Spirit as were the hills of Gilboa without dew or rain.

sky

That is true - it is the difference between the Old Covenant and a lost person under condemnation - or the New Covenant and a saved saint having the Law of Jer 31:33 written on the heart.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Here are the reasons again:

1. To do no regular work on the Sabbath is to acknowledge that God is the Creator.

2. To do no regular work on the Sabbath is to obey His command. And there is no higher form of worship that we can render to our Creator than to obey His commands.

3. To do no regular work on the Sabbath is to acknowledge that as Creator, He has the right to command.

4. To do no regular work on the Sabbath is to acknowledge that He ALONE can make me holy. That means He alone can justify me, sanctify me, and cleanse me from sin.

5. To do no regular work on the Sabbath is setting aside time for fellowship with other believers for worship, contemplation, celebration

6. Others can add their own reasons...

All true.

In Ex 20:8-11 God says "REMEMBER he Sabbath day to keep it holy" then the text goes BACK to the Gen 1-2:3 event and says that the Creation event ALONE is sufficient to "make the Day Holy" and binding on mankind.

God does not say in Ex 20 "I now make the Sabbath" or "I now make it Holy" - rather God says that we are to REMEMBER that He already made it Holy and binding on mankind.

Even Christ makes this point in Mark 2:27 saying that at the MAKING of the Sabbath it was MADE for "mankind".

impossible to miss these simple points of scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

"Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy..." and "Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect" are two promises if received as the voice of God speaking to the soul, as opposed to receiving them as the word of God merely written. Merely written they are as destitute of the Holy Spirit as were the hills of Gilboa without dew or rain.

sky

You really didn't say anything, Sky. No disrespect meant....

After GOD has spoken, what more can Sky add? If God's word carry no force for you, how could a mere man?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: karl

So it's really "live and obey" vs "stay dead and disobey."

Obey? And you are living Christ's life of self-denial? Are you living solely for others - as in the servant of all? Or are you living with yourself in mind? Christ thought not, lived not, planned not for Himself to the point of having no place to lay His head. Are you that selfless too? I think not! So if you want to obey in order to get heaven, you'll never make it.

So are you saying that since nobody is in perfect obedience or living Christ's life that therefore there's no point in obeying God's commandments?

And just who is trying to get to heaven on the basis of his/her obedience? A red herring arguement that you are using whenever the subject of obedience comes up.

So here's the question again - are the 10c including the 4th to be obeyed or not?

[Sonny]

the New Covenant and a saved saint having the Law of Jer 31:33 written on the heart.

Correct...agape is written in the heart, which is harmony with the last 6 commandments of the moral law, but the Sabbath is not written in the heart. If it were all believers would know that the Sabbath is the 7th day.

[Sonny]

God says that we are to REMEMBER that He already made it Holy and binding on mankind.

False! The law is not binding on the believer. The believer was delivered from under law because it demands death to the one who is failing to live according to its spirit.

Christ's life answered all the demands of the law. Yours does not! So if you are under the binding demands of God's law you have it. No heaven for you!

[Sonny]

After GOD has spoken, what more can Sky add? If God's word carry no force for you, how could a mere man?

But you aren't God and you can't interpret the Bible for me. Still, you guys can't tell me why you rest!

[karl]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

God says that we are to REMEMBER that He already made it Holy and binding on mankind.

False! The law is not binding on the believer. The believer was delivered from under law because it demands death to the one who is failing to live according to its spirit.

Christ's life answered all the demands of the law. Yours does not! So if you are under the binding demands of God's law you have it. No heaven for you!

It is a fallacy to believe that because Christ died for our sins we don't have to die. It is true that Christ died that we might have life, but we get the idea that Christ died that we might keep on breathing and doing what we've always done. This is wrong. Christ considers our breathing and doing what we've always done to be death. Let the dead bury the dead. If thou wilt ENTER into life....

When we are quickened by the Holy Spirit, we obey. Come to life and obey. For it is God that worketh in you to will and to do of HIS good pleasure.

If we are dead in trespasses and sins, we disobey. Stay dead and disobey.

New creatures do new things. If the mind of Christ is in us, we do what Jesus would do. We obey. Even unto death.

[Sonny]

So are you saying that since nobody is in perfect obedience or living Christ's life that therefore there's no point in obeying God's commandments?

[Sonny]

It is a fallacy to believe that because Christ died for our sins we don't have to die.

[BobRyan]

God says that we are to REMEMBER that He already made it Holy and binding on mankind.

[miz3]

I am not sure that I understand all that Sonny is saying. However, much of what he is saying I agree with.

What I don't understand about what he is saying, I will reserve judgment on!

"Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

John 11:25.

What does this mean?

[Sonny]

1 Cor 7:19 "But what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

Let's look at the context:

10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord):

command # 1: A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband.

command # 2: And a husband must not divorce his wife.

12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. 15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. 16 How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife? 17 Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. 18 Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.

The commands he has in mind are in this context. It's about marriage & divorce, not the moral law. Please be honest before you quote things out of context!

[Sonny]

Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the law of God by our faith - God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

Now I would like to confess that this is one of the most misunderstood verses in the Bible. I have heard lots of talks, I have read a lot of material on this verse, but I am afraid I have to disagree with all of them. Let me give you a typical interpretation of verse 31 that you often read and hear:

“Do we then make void the law through faith? No! By faith God gives us His Spirit. He gives us power. And we are able to keep the law by God’s power, and by keeping the law, we are establishing the law.”

That is a typical interpretation of verse 31. I would like to suggest that this is far from what Paul is talking about. I’ll give you three reasons:

It does not agree with the context.

It does not agree historically.

It does not agree with the grammar.

We need to be honest with every text that we read. Paul is not saying here that by faith we keep the law through the grace of God, through the power of God, and that way we establish the law. Let me explain each one of them.

First of all, contextually. Paul is not dealing in this passage which we have covered with the doctrine of Sanctification. He is dealing with the doctrine of Justification by Faith. Yes, Paul has much to say in Romans on this doctrine of Sanctification, in chapters 6, 7, and 8. And Paul has much to say on the issue of Christian living, which must be in harmony with the law, in chapter 12 up to chapter 16. But here, in this passage, he is not dealing with the subjective experience of the Christian. He is dealing with the truth of the righteousness of God which justifies us apart from the works of the law. So the context won’t allow you to give you that interpretation.

Let us look at the second problem, historically. What do I mean that this interpretation disagrees historically? Well, it is impossible. I am going to make a statement first, and I will explain it, because I know that many will misunderstand me just making the statement: “It is impossible for you and me to establish the law.”

Now I do not mean by that it is impossible for you and me, by the grace of God, to keep the law. I am not discussing that. We will come to that when we come to the sections on sanctification and the sections on Christian living. What I am saying here, and what Paul is saying here, is that it’s impossible for you and me, and it has never happened in the history of the human race, or in the history of the Christian church, where any believer has established the law.

Now to explain that. What do I mean? What does Paul mean when he uses the word establish? It means that the law is totally and fully satisfied with you. When every demand of the law on you has been satisfied, then and then only you have established the law. And that is impossible. I’ll tell you why folks. The law demands two things from you and me. Not one, but two things:

The law demands perfect righteousness from you and me.

Because we are sinners, the law demands from you and me justice. Now it is true, Paul says in Romans 8:4 that [beginning at the end of verse 3]:

And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

If we walk in the Spirit, the righteousness of the law can be fulfilled in us. But the righteousness of the law is not the justice of the law. The justice of the law is that [Eze. 18:4 & 20]:

The soul who sins is the one who will die.

And the death that the law demands from you and me as sinners is not the first death, it’s good-bye to life forever. Therefore, it is impossible to meet the justice of the law and still live because, when you die the second death, that’s the end of you.

So there are two requirements that the law demands from each one of us. If you fail to fulfil those two requirements, you cannot establish the law, the law will condemn you, you’re still under the curse. But in Christ the law has been established. Christ met on behalf of all people the two demands. By His perfect life, He has met the positive demand of the law, which the Bible calls the righteousness of the law. And, by His death, He has met the justice of the law, so that, in the doing and the dying of Christ, the law has been established. That is what Paul is saying in verse 31. I’ll come back to it.

Let’s go to number three: grammatically. You see, the word “faith” is the key state word in this verse, 31:

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? [some translations read: Do we then make void the law through faith?]

Now the word “faith” has more than one meaning in the New Testament. Paul is not saying here, “Do we then make void the law through our faith?” He is not discussing the believer’s faith, which is one of the key definitions of faith in the New Testament. But he’s not discussing that, because, in the original, which is not in the English [translations of the] Bible, in the original, the word “faith” is preceded by the definite article. So what Paul says here is:

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? [some translations read: Do we then make void the law through the faith?]

When he uses the word faith with the definite article, it can have more than one meaning. I want to give you an example of what it can mean before I turn to this verse. Turn your Bibles to a very important passage, Galatians chapter 3, the passage that brought a tremendous controversy, not only in the Christian church, but in ours, 100 years ago. Galatians chapter 3, and I want to look at two verses, 23 and 25. And here Paul does the same thing. He uses the word faith with the definite article. I read in verse 23:

Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.

Now what is Paul saying in verse 23? The word “faith” here is not applying to the believer’s faith but to the object of faith, which is Jesus Christ. So what Paul is saying here in Galatians 3:23 is: “Before Christ came, historically, before He came to this world, before Christ came and redeemed us by His life and death, the human race was kept in prison. We were all in death row legally before Christ came.”

In other words, even Enoch and Moses, even Elijah, had no right to be in heaven. But they were there because of a promise. If Christ had failed to keep that promise, they would have to come down and die. But the fact is that, legally, the whole world was in prison, sentenced to eternal death, until the faith of Christ came. That is why Paul says in Galatians 3, verses 24-25:

So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

In verse 23, the faith had not come; in verse 25, He had already come. But after the faith had come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law [or “under the schoolmaster,” as some translations read] because Christ has set us free.

So the word faith in Galatians 3 does not refer to the believer’s faith, but to the object of the believer’s faith, which is Jesus Christ.

With this in mind, let’s go to Romans 3. How then does Paul use the word “faith” in verse 31 of chapter 3? Well, the context tells us here that he is discussing the doctrine of Justification by Faith. He has told us in verse 28 that the righteousness of God which justifies us by faith is apart from the law. That means our keeping of the law does not contribute towards the righteousness which justifies us. But the question in verse 31 is, “What about God’s righteousness? Does God’s righteousness satisfy the law?” In other words, is God righteous when He justifies us sinners? Can His righteousness stand up with the law in the judgment? The answer is yes.

In other words, what Paul is defending here is, once again, the legal framework of the atonement. That’s why, if we destroy the legal framework of the atonement, which some of our theologians are trying to do, we have destroyed one of the key passages, one of the key teachings of the New Testament.

Let me ask you a question. If you stand before the judgment seat of God today, and the law says to you, “Have you obeyed me?” What are you going to say?

“Well, we have been taught that the law no longer applies.”

And God will say, “Who told you that?”

“Well, some theologian with a Ph.D.”

And God will say, “Since when was he your Saviour?”

The Bible is the measuring stick of truth. And the Bible says [Heb. 9:22]:

In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

On the cross, Jesus met the justice of the law. And, by His life, He met the positive demands of the law. And when I stand before the judgment seat of God, and the law of God says to me, “Have you obeyed me?” I will not say to the law, “Well, I did my best.”

The law says, “I did not ask that question.”

“Well, I kept most of the law.”

The law will say, “I did not ask you that question either. Have you obeyed me in every detail?”

“Well, I goofed up a few times.”

And the law says, “I’m sorry, you must die. Once is enough.”

But I thank God I will not answer the law that way. I will say, “Yes, I have obeyed you perfectly.”

The law will say, “When did you obey me perfectly?”

“When I was in Christ. Then I had perfect obedience.”

But the law will say, “You’re a sinner, you must die.”

And I will say to the law, “Well I have bad news for you, I have already died.”

The law will say, “When did you die?”

I will quote to the law Galatians 2:20:

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live....

The law will say, “Well, if that’s your position, then you are free to live.”

And I will say to the law, “Thank you.”

Because, in Christ, the law has been established on behalf of you and me. That is what verse 31 says. God doesn’t bypass His law to justify us. God holds His integrity to His law when He justifies me through His Son Jesus Christ. Because, in His Son’s holy history, God has met every demand of the law for you and for me. That is the “good news” of the Gospel.

[Sonny]

Eph 6:2 says that the 5th commandment is binding and is the first commandment with a promise -- in that list of Ten.

Eph 6:2 1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 "Honor your father and mother"--which is the first commandment with a promise-- 3 "that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth." 4 Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.

Yes, it's good to do this, but it's not binding as a means to heaven. Nothing there says it's binding.

[phkrause]

Faith is what God wants from us under the NC. In return He begins to write agape into our hearts:

Exactly Sonny, when we accept him as our Lord and Savior, in Faith. He writes his agape (His Moral Law=The 10 Commandments) on our hearts. This is the difference between to OC and the NC.

[Sonny]

1 John 2 says that the one who claims to know Jesus but does not keep His commandment is a liar.

Here's the context:

1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

First of all, forgiveness means you are sinning, right? Keep that in mind.

3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

What are these commands?

# 1 (9) Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.

# 2 (10) Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.

If you are a born again believer you will not practice hate towards your brothers and sisters. It's not making the moral law binding.

[Sonny]

He writes his agape (His Moral Law=The 10 Commandments) on our hearts.

No! Remember what agape is: Agape is a selfless love that is done without one's self in mind. If God gives me agape so that I can agape Him back, God becomes self-centered. Instead God, through faith in Him, gives me agape so that it can go out to my neighbors.

If the Sabbath is written in the heart then all believers would know through their consciences that the Sabbath is the 7th-day, period!