Prophets: True/False, how can we tell?

[ClubV12]

Piece of cake using the two examples you posted. Joeseph Smith and Ellen White. In such a contest, using the seven tests, Joe hasn't got a "prayer". No faith, no prejuiced, no Ph.D. needed, just a simple comparison. Man, that was like hitting the easy button! :)

[Gustave]

A true prophet would not usurp Apostolic authority as listed in the Scriptures...

...A false prophet would "establish doctrines" by claiming they were shown the truth of the doctrines by God.

1 Corinthians 12,28

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues

[Sonny]

Apostolic authority

This is baloney!

After the disciples had passed away from the scene, the leadership of the church fell into the hands of the church “Fathers,” who were of Greek origin.

The Greeks were insulted that the New Testament writers ignored the highest form of love in their language (heavenly eros) and used an obscure word (agape) instead. They felt that the disciples of Christ, who were all Jews (except Luke), did not really understand their language and, therefore, a correction had to be made. The first to attempt this was Marcion (died in 160 A.D.). He was succeeded by Origen (died in 254 A.D.) who actually changed John’s sublime statement “God is agape” [1 John 4:8] to “God is eros.” However, the battle did not stop there; it continued until we come to Augustine, the fourth century bishop of Hippo (North Africa) and one of the great “fathers” of Roman Catholic theology.

Augustine realized how futile it was to substitute eros for agape. Instead he did a very smart thing. By using Greek logic, he took the concepts of agape as well as eros and married the two together, producing a synthesis which he called caritas (Latin) and from which we get our English word charity, the word that is often used in our KJV for agape. This word caritas was not only accepted by Christendom but became the key word to define divine and Christian love in Roman Catholic theology. Its meaning was a mixture of agape and eros so that the gospel was perverted from “Not I, but Christ” [Galatians 2:20] to “I plus Christ,” a concept of the gospel still prevalent today. The moment the pure meaning of agape was corrupted, the gospel became perverted with self-love, and the Christian church lost its power and was plunged into darkness. It was not until the Reformation (16th Century) that Luther realized the problem and tried to break the synthesis. However, the church today is to a large degree still groping in darkness as to the true meaning of the gospel.

[Pastor_Chick]

Who was the first prophet?

How did those of that generation KNOW whether the prophet was "true" or "false"?

[Scion]

I like the list that Club gave a couple pages back. I've seen a list put out by the SDA Church a while ago that seemed to be tailor-made to "prove" that EGW was a prophet. It included things like a prophet not having "breath" when in vision. But on reading the proof for it, they (mis)quoted a line from Daniel and made it a point of testing just because something similar happened to Ellen White. I'm not sure which of our scholars was responsible for including things like that...

I do believe Ellen White was a prophet, of course, but I think the points that Club lays out, right from the Scripture, are much more useful, and less likely to draw criticism from non-Adventists looking into the issue.

A good question was asked in the last post, "Who was the first prophet." You know, I would say Adam. He spoke to God, and then gave instructions to Eve about God's will after she was formed. What do you think about that?

[phkrause]

Well I always thought there were only 7 tests for a prophet! Well I was just informed there are 12. Here is a link. http://www.seventh-day.org/testsofproph.htm

You'll need to scroll down to find them. I do hope this helps a little.

[ClubV12]

One of those 12 tests notes that a true prophet will be a sabbath keeper. Which on one hand makes sense, keeping all the commandents. But is does seem a bit narrow, that was rather eye opening.

[Gustave]

This is baloney!

[fccool]

Quote:

You realize the word "Bishop" is in the Bible, right?

...You also know what the Bible says of the office of Bishop, right?

...Do you realize how many "Popes" met their end by the hand of pagan Romans?

The Bishop in NT means overseer. It's administrative in nature. You can't really read "Pope" into it.

Sure, you can argue apostolic succession. This is after all the Catholic church claim. But you have to ask yourself as how did things go so horribly wrong in middle ages?

[Jody]

Dear phk, Thank-you for the link. I think it would be good to go over the 12 tests,and see if they apply to every biblical prophet, though they did all apply to the prophetic gift of EGW. But I was most blessed, brought to tears even by the personal testimony of Elder Harold Nathan Williams included at the end of the list. I could not stop reading it once I started. I was not raised SDA, but my own testimony is that I was given a copy of "The Final Conflict" which is a condensed booklet of the last chapters of "The Great Controversy", when I was in the world, smoking, drinking, using drugs, etc. I remember when I was reading it thinking there was something very compelling about it. It was a few years later, when I walked into my first little 8-13 member congregation in the small town of Anza Ca. and learned who the writer of that booklet was. I have believed she was a special messenger of God ever since, by what she has written and the love of God and Jesus, expressed in exhortation, counsel, and reproof, and warning that pours forth from the pages. This has only served to strengthen that conviction, and my heart pours forth with praise to my Father in Heaven for this gift.

May He bless our Sabbath this Day!

[Woody]

Thanks pk. But I am always a bit skeptical of articles where the author is to ashamed of his work to assign his name to it. :(

[phkrause]

Dear phk, Thank-you for the link. I think it would be good to go over the 12 tests,and see if they apply to every biblical prophet, though they did all apply to the prophetic gift of EGW. But I was most blessed, brought to tears even by the personal testimony of Elder Harold Nathan Williams included at the end of the list. I could not stop reading it once I started. I was not raised SDA, but my own testimony is that I was given a copy of "The Final Conflict" which is a condensed booklet of the last chapters of "The Great Controversy", when I was in the world, smoking, drinking, using drugs, etc. I remember when I was reading it thinking there was something very compelling about it. It was a few years later, when I walked into my first little 8-13 member congregation in the small town of Anza Ca. and learned who the writer of that booklet was. I have believed she was a special messenger of God ever since, by what she has written and the love of God and Jesus, expressed in exhortation, counsel, and reproof, and warning that pours forth from the pages. This has only served to strengthen that conviction, and my heart pours forth with praise to my Father in Heaven for this gift.

May He bless our Sabbath this Day!

Thanks, but you can thank God. I never thought that the tests for prophets were so pin pointed like that. Like I mentioned, I had always heard there were only 7, but I emailed a very good friend of mine up at AUC, and he sent me this link so I thought I share it with all. Happy Sabbath to all too.

[Windsor]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Apostolic authority

This is baloney!

After the disciples had passed away from the scene, the leadership of the church fell into the hands of the church “Fathers,” who were of Greek origin.

The Greeks were insulted that the New Testament writers ignored the highest form of love in their language (heavenly eros) and used an obscure word (agape) instead. They felt that the disciples of Christ, who were all Jews (except Luke), did not really understand their language and, therefore, a correction had to be made. The first to attempt this was Marcion (died in 160 A.D.). He was succeeded by Origen (died in 254 A.D.) who actually changed John’s sublime statement “God is agape” [1 John 4:8] to “God is eros.” However, the battle did not stop there; it continued until we come to Augustine, the fourth century bishop of Hippo (North Africa) and one of the great “fathers” of Roman Catholic theology.

Luke was not one of the twelve.

[Gustave]

Luke was not one of the twelve.

An office does not terminate at the death of the holder....

...You do realize Judas LEFT an office & that he was replaced, right?

[Gustave]

The Bishop in NT means overseer. It's administrative in nature. You can't really read "Pope" into it.

[Light Fox]

Hello,

Well, this is an interesting discussion topic. I recall that list pk shared from when I was in the Adventist denomination as well; I never have thought particularly highly of it as a valid test. What it has appeared like is a list of things that happened to Ellen White that also can be found to have happened to occasional specific prophets in the Bible. Those things were taken, and then put into a list to say "Lets test prophets by this - hey look, Ellen White passes."

Many Biblical prophets would fail the above list of 12, for example. Despite what #1 claims about Jonah, no such facts are recorded in Scripture about a qualification on his preaching. #2 was not met by John the Baptist, who was called the greatest prophet born among women. #4 is describing one incident with Balaam, not a general rule. #5 is the same; a one-time occurrence assumed to apply to all visions. #6 is outright false from 1 Kings 13:18-22, and the list goes on. Only about 3 of the list are actually Biblical tests of prophets, being the ones Christ and the prophets meant to be used as tests; fruits, and the law and the testimony.

As it turns out, it has never been much of a problem because I have yet to meet anyone who *actually* uses these lists to test a prophet. Instead, they use them to validate a prophet they accept (Ellen White in this case). When it comes to testing new prophets, I think we can get to a valid consideration of another aspect of the title of this thread.

...."How do you know if a prophet is true or false?" Let me ask you - if someone comes to you claiming to be a prophet, what is your reaction? I can tell you the reaction I have seen when various people come making the claim, or any vaguely similar one. It is skepticism and automatic suspicion. I have yet to see anyone ask if a prophet is true. Instead, they seek for ways to know if they are false.

Whether it is written or confessed or not, almost no one actually believes that prophets still exist; either believing Ellen White was the last one, or that she herself was false and that prophecy ended with the close of the Canon.

Christ tells us to beware of false prophets. Presumably, this means there will be true prophets, else He would have just said "beware of prophets."

....The question in the OP is how you know if a prophet is true or false, but I think more often, the real question people ask is "How can I prove that this prophet is false?" In my experience, the answer to that for the majority is one of the following:

..a) "Can I find any comparisons with known false prophets?"

.. "Can I find anything that conflicts with how I already think a prophet should act and talk?"

Both of these are, obviously, absurd. For a), why would you expect that Satan would not seek to muddy the waters with people acting in ways similar to how God would lead an actual messenger? Falsehood is not the measure of truth. Yet more often than not, the "test of a prophet" is not to the law and the testimony, but "Are they at all similar to David Koresh/Wayne Bent/Jim Jones/(Fill in the cult leader)?"

The second of these is equally illogical, as God rarely sends messengers if there is not a need for correction.

The *actual* test found in the Scripture - To the Law and the Testimony - is the only valid answer for the question in the title of this thread, as I see it. And as I have seen it, it's rarely followed, since "prophecy" has become a dirty word when mentioned in regards to anyone not in the "accepted list." People are terrified of being misled by a false prophet, when they ought to be equally concerned with rejecting a true one.

[Pastor_Chick]

When I was exposed to the writings of Ellen G. White, I did not "test" her whether she was true or false. I was hungering and thirsting for righteousness, and I took her writings and read what she wrote.

I became a "Christian" because of the Spirit of her message to my heart. When I had unanswered questions, she filled in between the lines. When I needed correction, she reproved me. When I needed encouragement, she lifted me up. When I needed assurance in Christ, she provided the Word of God and His promises.

What a test! I could only believe.

[ClubV12]

Indeed Pastor Chick. I never needed to apply any tests myself. By the time I finished Steps to Christ, the Great Controversy and Desire of Ages it was obvious she was inspired of God. As my understanding of her work grew it became clear she was more than just inspired, she was a prophetess.

[Pastor_Chick]

Indeed Pastor Chick. I never needed to apply any tests myself. By the time I finished Steps to Christ, the Great Controversy and Desire of Ages it was obvious she was inspired of God. As my understanding of her work grew it became clear she was more than just inspired, she was a prophetess.

Club,

Nice to find some agreement here. The hard work comes with interpreting some of her writings. I am not giving up.

[ClubV12]

Well, I hear that! It's as difficult at times as it is interpreting scripture. She does give us a clue. The Testimonies themselves are the key to understanding. And like the bible, that means an extensive cross reference, double checking, comparing, prayer and the Holy Spirit softening our hearts to receive the good news. God bless.

[phkrause]

When I was exposed to the writings of Ellen G. White, I did not "test" her whether she was true or false. I was hungering and thirsting for righteousness, and I took her writings and read what she wrote.

I became a "Christian" because of the Spirit of her message to my heart. When I had unanswered questions, she filled in between the lines. When I needed correction, she reproved me. When I needed encouragement, she lifted me up. When I needed assurance in Christ, she provided the Word of God and His promises.

What a test! I could only believe.

[phkrause]

Indeed Pastor Chick. I never needed to apply any tests myself. By the time I finished Steps to Christ, the Great Controversy and Desire of Ages it was obvious she was inspired of God. As my understanding of her work grew it became clear she was more than just inspired, she was a prophetess.

[Brother Peter]

When you read the bible cover to cover you will find out that a "true" prophet is not a very popular person especially to the sin loving coward.Why?, because they always bring a message from God that put a spot light on the sin that is being fostered in their lives.

___________

Bro P.

[miz3]

Not always.

Moses was pretty popular with the Jews of Christ's day even though they didn't really know Moses very well.

The Jews of David's day found him very popular! In fact they viewed David as the embodiment of the Jewish Nation!

Of course your attempts to draw conclusions in regard to pastorchick's prophetic claims don't even come close. Pastorchick is clearly a false prophet as I have already clearly outlined in numerous posts already.

[ClubV12]

Well, there is often an exception to the rule. David may be one such example.

As for Moses, he was long gone when the people liked him. When he was alive, not so much.