Prophets: True/False, how can we tell?

[miz3]

I gave you Bible references ClubV12.

Isn't that good enough? I thought the Bible was the highest and best evidence available?

Is the Bible not the Best Evidence, ClubV12?

What is the best evidence in your view, ClubV12?

[ClubV12]

The bible and the bible alone miz3, I hear you!

That hasn't worked out so well for the Methodists, Baptists, Jehovah Witness, Mormons, etc. etc. to a few hundred of various interpretations of the meaning of the bible. What are they missing, that the SDA church has??

But hey, if you can go it alone and don't need anyone to help you, well, good luck with that.

As for me, I'll take all the help I can get. Many people have been a very welcome help right here on this web site, for instance! I've certainly learned a lot. My appreciation for the counsel of and with the brethren (and that includes the sisters) for the accurate interpretation of scripture, in combination with the writings of Ellen White have been a God send in understanding His word. Praise God for that!

Who was that guy that said "no man is an island"? He was onto something.... :)

[miz3]

ClubV12,

I don't know what the problem for you and others is in regard to the Bible. However, if you keep getting it wrong when you read the Bible maybe its because you don't have the right help.

I believe the Bible says something like the Holy Spirit will teach you all things. Maybe you missed that One.

Such is the fatal mistake of many!

One more thing, the JW and the Mormons are not Bible and Bible only. The Mormons rely on a Prophet just like SDA do! Isn't that an interesting little fact?

Could SDA be like the Mormons? Is that solid ground ClubV12?

[miz3]

ClubV12,

Did you get that "island thing" from Ellen White? Or was it some other inspired source?

[nuff sed]

This is a quotation from John Donne (1572-1631). It appears in Devotions upon emergent occasions and severall steps in my sickness - Meditation XVII, 1624:

"All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated...As therefore the bell that rings to a sermon, calls not upon the preacher only, but upon the congregation to come: so this bell calls us all: but how much more me, who am brought so near the door by this sickness....No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee................Nuff sed....

[ClubV12]

No man is an island miz3, it's a lonely road when one goes it alone.

"Could SDA be like the Mormons? Is that solid ground ClubV12?"

Why yes, the Seventh-day Adventists are like the Mormons in that the SDA also recognize a prophet. The solid ground is being able to recognize which prophets are genuine and which are not. That is the discussion on this thread!

Are you able to discern which prophet is the real one, miz3? Joseph Smith or Ellen White? Or, perhaps you reject both? I've studied BOTH myself, it is clear one of them is a fraud, Joseph Smith. The other, Ellen White is without question the Lords messenger.

"I don't know what the problem for you and others is in regard to the Bible."

Let me help you with that, if you would, it sounds like a plea for help.

The "problem" is that many folks fail to recognize that God gave us a multitude of ways to understand His word. In this day and age we have unprecedented access to writings and history books and commentairies that bible scholars in the past didn't even dream of! What I don't understand is how one could be so foolish to ignore these wonderful sources of information the Lord has made available for us?

It is "fanaticism" to suggest to folks they have no need of these things. Of course we will always have to deal with that issue. Ellen White herself was considered a fanatic in her own day!

Do you accept Ellen White as a prophet of God, miz3, or Joseph Smith?

[Scion]

Quote:

I believe the Bible says something like the Holy Spirit will teach you all things. Maybe you missed that One.

Sure... but can we recognize the voice of the Spirit when the Spirit speaks through other people? That also happens quite a lot in the Bible, and so I think Club said it just right. We have to learn to recognize who is truly speaking for God (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) and who is just speaking for himself or herself.

All the false prophets out there will say, "God told me to do this or that." And I think most of them probably believe it. This is why we can't rely on just what we think. The Scriptures tell us we are given our brethren, especially those in responsible positions (apostles, prophets, teachers, etc.) for the "perfecting of the saints." And if God gives us these things, are we justified in saying, "Sorry, I don't need that gift. I'll figure it out myself"?

[BobRyan]

Peter acceped Paul as a prophet - was "Peter like the mormons"?

Paul accepte Moses as a prophet - was "Paul like the mormons"?

Christ in Matt 24 accepted Daniel as a prophet - was "Christ like the mormons"?

(I can hear a lot of Mormons at this point saying "yes! yes! yes!"

What silly "like the mormons" arguments are those who say "do not accept a prophet of God lest you be like the mormons".

1Thess 5 says that we are not to despise prophetic messages.

1Cor 14 says we are to desire earnestly spiritual gifts but ESPECIALLY that you may prophesy.

Those who reject the Bible teaching on prophets by saying "just give me the Bible" are really saying "I want the Bible - not the words in the Bible".

How odd.

in Christ,

Bob

[Scion]

Quite right! I was talking to a Sunday keeping evangelist a few weeks ago, who was trying to convince me that there were no prophets after John, who wrote Revelation.

I showed him those verses, and also (I think?) the one we use that talks about the testimony of Jesus being the spirit of prophecy. Then we moved on to the Sabbath issue. At the very end of the conversation, I asked him, "So you are telling me that even if I show you, in YOUR Bible, that the people who followed Jesus were keeping the Sabbath after His death, you would not believe it?"

He said, "I would not." I said, "Then we have nothing else to talk about." And I left.

When people say, "Give me the Bible," they mean, "The Bible as I currently understand it," not "The Bible as the inspiration of God through which I have so much left to learn... and to unlearn." I see it all the time on the issue of the Sabbath, of latter-day prophets, and just about everything else that attends the true Gospel.

[billypk]

I agree on the EGW comment. Keep her in perspective(?). The Bible is the only truth.

[BobRyan]

The bible and the bible alone miz3, I hear you!

That hasn't worked out so well for the Methodists, Baptists, Jehovah Witness, Mormons, etc. etc. to a few hundred of various interpretations of the meaning of the bible. What are they missing, that the SDA church has??

The "Bible and the Bible alone" - "Sola scriptura" is the only rule of faith and practice for the SDA church. Ellen White also insistst that this is the case. And her contemporaries in the 1800 were often called to answer the question "does your doctrine come from the Bible or Ellen White". Both they and Ellen White insisted repeatedly that our doctrines are based AND TESTED "sola scriptura".

If you will notice - in our published 27FB book and in all of our current 28FB statements published for all the world to see - at no time do we resort to a quote from Ellen White to prove the doctrine.

Thus if anyone inside or outside the SDA church wants to test or refute one of our doctrines all they have to do is show a Bible study that is actually correct - that refutes that doctrine.

So the Catholic that believes in praying to the dead or purgatory can simply produce a correct accurate Bible study showing the immortality of the soul, purgatory and the interaction of dead people who hear the prayers of the living - to make their case - and that would end our doctrines on those points.

How interesting that in all these years they are not able to do it.

All the Baptist and Presbyterian Calvinists have to do is provide a compelling accurate case from the Bible that God does not really so love the World, atonement ended at the cross (not merely the atoning sacrifice ended at the cross) and that Jesus limited his atoning sacrifice for just the sins, of the foreknown saved and not for the foreknown lost and their limited sacrifice doctrine would be proven and our view of salvation and the Sanctuary would be rejected.

How interesting that in all these years they are not able to do it.

All the Sunday churches have to do is provide a compelling accurate Bible case for the Sabbath changed from day 7 to day 1 and our doctrine on the Sabbath would end.

How interesting that in all of these years - they are not able to do it.

Thus our doctrine do stand "sola scriptura" and they are often tested by those inside and outside the church on that very basis. It is the basis of "test" to which we freely admit to subjecting our understanding of truth.

So yes indeed when it comes to "letting the chips fall where they may" on this one - we gladly do it!!

WE do not fear it - we rely on it!

in Christ,

Bob

[ClubV12]

Bob, the issue here, the question, is, do we need any sources to assist us in the study of the bible for our personal growth today? Or, do we need only the bible and the bible alone and all truth will be revealed to anybody that reads it?

Sure the SDA church is bible and the bible only based, but HOW did we get there? No one can deny the roll the Lords messenger played in understanding the foundational doctrines. Understanding them, which led to establishing them. Take away the Lords messenger from the founding Fathers and what have you got? Jehovah Witness, Baptist, something "other than" Seventh-day Adventist!

So the question for today is this: Is her work now done? We have established the doctrines, we have the bible and the bible only, so, no need of the prophet's writings or work? No need for the SDA commentary? No need for the counsel of the brethren?

Of course it is foolishness, and fanaticism, to throw out or ignore the sources God has provided for our edification.

Which is EXACTLY what we are doing when we loudly proclaim, "You need ONLY the bible and the bible alone, to understand all things." If it were as easy as that, how come we can't agree on the day/year principle? Not to mention so many other points!

[miz3]

No man is an island miz3, it's a lonely road when one goes it alone.

As I told you before I am not alone. God and the Holy Spirit are with me all the time. I could have no better Sources of knowledge than those Two.

After reading your latest post, ClubV12, it is clear that you are not Sola Scriptura.

I admire you for admitting what Bob Ryan and others refuse to admit.

That is that SDA Doctrine comes from both Ellen White and the Bible.

This has been clearly evident all along even though most in SDAism try and deny it is so. How can others trust us SDA if we so blatantly lie about the roots of our Doctrine.

[Tom Wetmore]

Moderator Notice

Once again posts have been removed because they are deemed to be off the topic and attacking another poster.

Those who accuse another of rejecting the Holy Spirit are casting a judgment for which they are completely unqualified and extremely dangerous ground. If these personal attacks do not stop, ClubV12, you will forfeit your privileges to post. Do I make myself clear?

Tom

Moderator Pro Tem

[miz3]

Ellen White did not establish doctrine, she verified it along the way. It was always her intent for the church to work through these issues with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

You keep trying to make that method of Doctrinal development be the Bible and Bible only.

If Ellen White has to CONFIRM IT then it is not Bible and Bible only.

That is just a slippery and dishonest way of doing your business. Such is evident to many nonSDA and that hurts God. You are trying to use technical and slippery language to justify what we all know is false. You think by using such slippery and convoluted language that you are fooling people into thinking you are a Bible and Bible only Church. God cannot be pleased with such duplicitous angling.

Then when it comes to a discussion of those very Doctrines as to whether they are true and valid Doctrines you, ClubV12, and many others in SDAism quote reams and reams of Ellen White quotes and say here it is, proof of our Doctrine and that we have it right. If then someone says that is Ellen White and not the Bible you then accuse them of rejecting God's Prophet and in doing so blaspheme God.

My oh my, what a tangled web you weave.

[ClubV12]

Tom, I don't fully understand your point on my comment. Those who reject the prophets reject the Holy Spirit. Why is that a problematic statement?

[ClubV12]

"You think by using such slippery and convoluted language that you are fooling people into thinking you are a Bible and Bible only Church."

miz3, it would be nice to have a debate without your use of offensive words to describe my position, as you often and have consistently done.

[Tom Wetmore]

Tom, I don't fully understand your point on my comment. Those who reject the prophets reject the Holy Spirit. Why is that a problematic statement?

Because the accusation/judgment of rejecting the Holy Spirit is not humanly possible. You cannot make that call. To presume that level of authority is dangerous ground indeed.

I have had to remove some of your other posts that are personal attacks on other posters. You must stop this now.

As a moderator I am openly calling you out on this since your full inbox prevents a PM. This is not open for debate here.

Please stop now before I have to take this to the next level.

Tom

Moderator Pro Tem

[miz3]

ClubV12,

What I stated is true!

[ClubV12]

"ClubV12,

What I stated is true!"

No, I don't think it is miz3, it is your opinion, mine differs.

[skyblue888]

[miz3]

I have made my point and it is clear to all.

[Musicman1228]

Is there a spirit in the world that is of Satan but that masquerades as the Holy Spirit?

[Guest]

The "Bible and the Bible alone" - "Sola scriptura" is the only rule of faith and practice for the SDA church. Ellen White also insistst that this is the case. And her contemporaries in the 1800 were often called to answer the question "does your doctrine come from the Bible or Ellen White". Both they and Ellen White insisted repeatedly that our doctrines are based AND TESTED "sola scriptura".

If you will notice - in our published 27FB book and in all of our current 28FB statements published for all the world to see - at no time do we resort to a quote from Ellen White to prove the doctrine.

Thus if anyone inside or outside the SDA church wants to test or refute one of our doctrines all they have to do is show a Bible study that is actually correct - that refutes that doctrine.

So the Catholic that believes in praying to the dead or purgatory can simply produce a correct accurate Bible study showing the immortality of the soul, purgatory and the interaction of dead people who hear the prayers of the living - to make their case - and that would end our doctrines on those points.

How interesting that in all these years they are not able to do it.

All the Baptist and Presbyterian Calvinists have to do is provide a compelling accurate case from the Bible that God does not really so love the World, atonement ended at the cross (not merely the atoning sacrifice ended at the cross) and that Jesus limited his atoning sacrifice for just the sins, of the foreknown saved and not for the foreknown lost and their limited sacrifice doctrine would be proven and our view of salvation and the Sanctuary would be rejected.

How interesting that in all these years they are not able to do it.

All the Sunday churches have to do is provide a compelling accurate Bible case for the Sabbath changed from day 7 to day 1 and our doctrine on the Sabbath would end.

How interesting that in all of these years - they are not able to do it.

Thus our doctrine do stand "sola scriptura" and they are often tested by those inside and outside the church on that very basis. It is the basis of "test" to which we freely admit to subjecting our understanding of truth.

So yes indeed when it comes to "letting the chips fall where they may" on this one - we gladly do it!!

WE do not fear it - we rely on it!

in Christ,

Bob

Good post Bob. If the doctrine is in the Bible, then it doesn't really matter who found it, or pointed to it first. It's there, and it's truth. Period. You can show it from there, without having to go anywhere else. If God used EGW to help find it, or point it out, what difference does that make? He could have just as easily used a street bum to lead others to it. Would that change the fact that it's in the Bible, and 100% biblical? Would that make what is in there not true? NO! It wouldn't change it in any way. So I don't see the big deal about whether EGW had anything to do with it or not. That's silly. Ellen White is dead, but the truth is still right there in the Bible. It's not her truth, it's God's truth. And the method He used to show it to others is His business.

Sounds like a whole bunch of quibbling over nothing to me, and not worthy of wasting too much time over. God doesn't want us to waste our time.

(and yes I am referring to miz3 jumping up and down hollering "It's not from the Bible only, it's not from the Bible only!")

Yes it is. Doesn't matter who found it or helped find it. It's still from the Bible only. Even if I found it first, that doesn't mean it came from me.

Enough time spent on that.

[BobRyan]

All true RLH.

However in the case of our doctrines - Ellen White was not the one to "first find them". As you point out there would have been no problem if God had set that up - so that she WAS in such a role - but it just so happens that she was not.

in Christ,

Bob