Prophets: True/False, how can we tell?

[miz3]

Miz3, again I will take some time for you here since you seem not understanding the CSDA position at all and it is unfortunate.

I said that we have more right to the name, just like the Reformers were more entitled to the name Christian than the Roman papal church that was persecuting them, do you see that? Jesus was doubly the Son of God by the life he lived than the Jews that were repudiating Him.

When Martin Luther went and nailed his Theses on the church's door in Wittemberg, he could have not provoked the ire of the beast but he had his God' given duty to do and consequences did not relent him. In the same way the CSDA Church, since they are more worthy of the calling than has become the last Church called, thus showing more honor for God then the SDA GC controlled organization, God has chosen her.

Hope you get me more clearly.

I do get it clearly.

1. The Reformers and Martin Luther did not steal anything from the Roman Catholic Church. They did not steal their name.

2. The CSDA has stolen the legal name of the SDA Church.

The reformers may have been more worthy but they did not steal. That is a fact.

Regardless of your opinion that you at CSDA are more worthy does not give you the right morally or legally to STEAL!

That is also fact!

[miz3]

Now as for the claim of victory over all known sins, what is so marvelous in your eyes? Yahshua came in our flesh and lived a sinless life. He claimed sinlesness, and he will for his children to be pure, and perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect. The whole law and the prophets were hung upon RIGHTEOUSNESS BY FAITH. Israel had to trust in God and accept His salvation to live a sinless life and have victory over their enemies. What did it say of Abraham? He believed (trust)God and it was accounted to him as Righteousness" Victory over sin, all known sins and repeated ignorant ones is mentioned all through the Bible.

And I hope you understand that we are not claiming holy flesh but the same victory that you claimed when you got into the SDA church except that we let it become a integral day to day part of our life, just as Yahshua did. My food is to do the will of Him who sent me." Jn 4:34

Why does the plain scripture takes on a mysterious meaning to you Miz3?

What does all these saying to you? How do you understand them? Shall we make God a liar?

1Jn 3:9 " Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

1 Jn 5:18 "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

Romans 6:3 "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?"

Furthermore Mrs. White says:

"This probationary life is given to bring man back to this perfection which is to be the character of all who shall be saved. The law of God is a reflection of His character.--Letter 46, March 22, 1900, to David Steed, an Australian believer. {TDG 90.5}

for when Christ shall come in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, we must be all ready to be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, and to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Your only safety is in coming to Christ, and ceasing from sin this very moment. {ST, August 29, 1892 par. 5}

Search the Scriptures, examine your own hearts, meditate, pray, till you realize, by vivid conviction, your true state, till you see the peril which threatens you. Never rest till you know beyond all controversy that you have been transformed by the spirit of Christ; till you have clear evidence that you have been born again. Never rest till you know that Christ abideth in you. It will be vain for you to hope to meet the approval of God, until you come up to the Bible standard. The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are children of God" {RH, November 7, 1882 par. 17}

Not even by a thought could Christ be brought to yield to the power of temptation. . . . Christ declared of Himself, "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me." {FLB 49.6}

Jesus did not allow the enemy to pull Him into the mire of unbelief, or crowd Him into the mire of despondency and despair." {FLB 49.7}

"Christ's humanity was united with divinity, and in this strength He would bear all the temptations that Satan could bring against Him, and yet keep His soul untainted by sin. And this power to overcome He would give to every son and daughter of Adam who would accept by faith the righteous attributes of His character." 50{FLB 49.8}

1. As for Abraham even after Abraham's faith was accounted to him for Righteousness Abraham still sinned for many years there after. Apparently God counted Abraham righteous even though Abraham clearly had NOT OVERCOME ALL KNOWN SIN!

So you are clearly wrong about that!

2. As to "holy flesh" I never accused you of that.

3. The plain Scripture is not mysterious to me. It is very clear to me. Apparently it is a mystery to you since you got the Abraham thing wrong and that issue was very simple indeed.

4. It is also clear that you do not understand the Scripture and the "sinful nature" and how Sanctification works.

5. You also clearly do not understand how the simpler of the two processes works and that is Justification.

6. You also do not know the truth about the "human nature of Jesus Christ". You believe that Jesus Christ had a "sinful nature" like you and I. This is not Biblical.

7. The reason you believe falsely about the Nature of Jesus Christ is because you are confused by the "uninspired portions" of Ellen G. White. You take her uninspired portions instead of reading what the Bible states.

8. You should check out my exchange with Sonny on the "Creeds" thread concerning the Nature of Jesus Christ and what Jesus Christ did at the Cross. It will help you understand what the Bible says on the subject.

[ClubV12]

What unspired portions of Ellen Whites writings would that be miz3?

I have found very little if any statements that are uninspired. While there is a continual drum beat they exist, no one seems to be able to present the evidence!

If you make the accusation, back it up, or shut up.

[CoAspen]

You have lots to learn and read and understand....in the mean time knock off telling people to 'shut up'!!

[ClubV12]

Put up or shut up! It's a common phrase, "ante up" is another way of saying it.

You got some quote you'd like to lay on the table for discussion? We hear this a LOT, I'd like to address it head on, get it out in the open, quit the subtle attacks, deal with it. Or,,, quit saying it if you can't back it up.

[ClubV12]

If you don't believe in Ellen White at all, no problem, for unbelievers it's all uninspired to them. If you DO believe she was an inspired prophetess of God and are having trouble understanding a specific quote, let's take a look at it.

That is one of the ways to determine a true from a false prophet, which is the purpose of this thread.

[Musicman1228]

If a prophet is proven to be wrong in even one element of a prophecy that they claim has been given them by God then that claim, along with the prophet, is false.

GC, p-433:

The temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament." Revelation 11:19. The ark of God's testament is in the holy of holies, the second apartment of the sanctuary. In the ministration of the earthly tabernacle, which served "unto the example and shadow of heavenly things," this apartment was opened only upon the great Day of Atonement for the cleansing of the sanctuary. Therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in heaven and the ark of His testament was seen points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary in 1844 as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement.

Here is a perfect example of EGW getting wrong a prophetic interpretation that she claims came from God, and an example of her 'cut and paste' theology whereby she makes an interpretation that is 'out of context' with what is really there.

What EGW conveniently leaves out (cut and paste) is a significant verse that comes just before the one she cites that shows EXACTLY when the 'temple of God in heaven' was opened.

"Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” Rev. 11:15.

Clearly it can be seen that the Temple in Heaven appears in the sky AFTER the 7th Trumpet has already sounded. The 7th Trumpet indicates that probation is now closed for ALL mankind because the kingdoms of the world have now become the Kingdom of God.

Since EGW says that the Temple of God was seen in 1844 this must mean that she believes that the 7th Trumpet has already sounded prior to or concurrent with this event, indicating that the kingdoms have been transferred in 1844. Since we ARE NOT in Heaven, since probation for the world HAS NOT closed, since neither the 6th or 5th Trumpets have yet sounded, that means that the 7th Trumpet HAS NOT yet sounded, WHICH MEANS THAT EGW WAS WRONG IN THE INTERPRETATION THAT SHE SAID SHE GOT FROM GOD. Her interpretation is false, therefore she is also false.

As stipulated before It only takes a prophet being wrong ONCE to consider that prophet to be false. If you have any self-honesty you will acknowledge this, and acknowledge that EGW is (in fact) a false prophet. If you do not acknowledge this then it effectively shows your level of self-honesty.

[miz3]

Musicman1288,

I don't think it proves Ellen White was a false prophet at all!

I think it clearly demonstrates that Ellen White had opinions on theology, last day events, etc. As such her OPINIONS could indeed be wrong and many of them are.

I do believe however, there is evidence available that demonstrates that she is clearly a (prophet) messenger sent by God for that time. Just because she was sent for that time does not mean that she is not relevant for our time as well.

Ellen White had many opinions and she wanted others to know them because she believed her OPINIONS were valuable. Some are!

We do the same on this website. However, opinions can be true and they can be false. Why should Ellen White be treated as a "leper" just because she got opinions wrong.

The problems come when those supporting her "Deify" her and everything she wrote. They make her into an "idol" just as the RCC does for "Mary" the mother of Jesus.

[CoAspen]

[ClubV12]

On THIS web site we find professed Seventh-day Adventists who say they DO believe in Ellen White and are insinuating, asking or making the accusation that many of her statements are "personal opinion" or "uninspired".

For those that DO believe Ellen White is a prophet:

Is the above statement in GC, page 433 an "opinion" or an "inspired" statement?

Musicman, the question does not apply to you:

If you don't believe in Ellen White at all, no problem, for unbelievers it's all uninspired to them. We already know your position. There are tons of web sites and books dedicated to addressing the question of Ellen Whites status as a prophet. THIS is not one of those dedicated sites!

[miz3]

ClubV12,

My answer to Musicman1288 also applies as my answer to your question concerning the Great Controversy page 433.

It is "OPINION".

You are free to disagree and promote your idolatry of her and her writings. Your Deification of her and her work does nothing to change her wrongness of opinion.

[ClubV12]

Just asking a question miz3, got your answer.

Do you think, in this quote, GC-433 her "opinion", as you put it (I disagree) is correct or incorrect? Did Christ enter the Most Holy Place in 1844, or not, miz3?

[ClubV12]

Fundamental beliefs of Seventh-day Adventists, #24

"There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry."

GC, p-433:

"The temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament." Revelation 11:19. The ark of God's testament is in the holy of holies, the second apartment of the sanctuary. In the ministration of the earthly tabernacle, which served "unto the example and shadow of heavenly things," this apartment was opened only upon the great Day of Atonement for the cleansing of the sanctuary. Therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in heaven and the ark of His testament was seen points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary in 1844 as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement."

I submit:

If you consider the above GC quote as an "incorrect opinion" you also deny fundamental belief #24. Can you even BE a Seventh-day Adventist AND deny any of the fundamental beliefs? This assumes you have had sufficient time and understanding to accept or reject any given fundamental belief.

Can one be baptized into the Seventh-day Adventist church and NOT believe in all 28 fundamental beliefs? Can one continue to be a "member in good standing" while publicly declaring their unbelief in one of the 28 fundamental beliefs? Can the Seventh-day Adventist church continue to exist if it abandons the Investigative Judgment doctrine?

[John317]

I think Ellen White was a great prophet but not the best gospel preacher.

Who do you believe was? How about Isaiah?

Ellen White would never have claimed to be the best gospel preacher. She was well aware of her limitations.

Have you read the two volumes of Ellen White's Sermons & Talks?

[John317]

... Can the Seventh-day Adventist church continue to exist if it abandons the Investigative Judgment doctrine?

No, it can't. Without the Investigative Judgment, the Sabbath and many of our other distinctive beliefs lose their true significance. In short, we really have no reason for being a separate church if we are wrong on the Investigative Judgment.

[John317]

"And they rose early in the morning, and went forth into the wilderness of Tekoa: and as they went forth, Jehoshaphat stood and said, Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper". - 2Ch 20:20 KJV

And:

"Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despire prophecies. Test all things; hold fast what is good." 1 Thess. 5: 19-21.

Rev. 12: 17; 19: 10, make clear that God's last-day people will keep the commandments of God and have the Spirit of prophecy manifested among them. Compare 1 Cor. 12: 28 and Eph. 4: 11-14.

[John317]

The Bible says King Saul prophesied even while he pursued David to kill him.

1 Sam. 19: 23, 24. What conclusion do you draw from this?

[Musicman1228]

When EGW wrote what she did on page 433 of the GC she knew that because of her status in the SDA church that many would take these words to be as reliable as the words of God in the Bible. And yes, I know she called herself merely a 'messenger' and not a prophet, but the church itself has had nearly 200 years to refute to the world that she is not a prophet and they have not done this. The SDA church has named her a 'prophet of God'.Also, at various times people who were deemed reliable authority within the church called her a prophet and SHE DID NOT REFUTE THEM or the church. In legal terms this is called a 'tacit agreement', and is as valid a proof as words spoken in direct agreement.

The messages to the 7 churches in Rev. 2 and 3 are to a single body of believers that will be alive and functioning as a unified 'assembly' or church at the end of time. This 'assembly' will be the Kingdom of the Heavens as defined by God in Matt. 25:1-13 and elsewhere. These 7 messages not only give instruction to this 'assembly' but help to identify that 'assembly' to those members of the Kingdom of Heaven that have doubts as to who they are.

The message to Thyatira (Rev.2:18-23) is particularly important because it identifies a 'prophetess' who leads 'MY' bondservants astray-the 'MY' indicating the King of this Kingdom, Jesus Christ. In recognizing and identifying this 'prophetess' by the functional name Jezebel not only solidifies this particular woman and her characteristics as this false prophetess, but as a result solidifies this particular 'assembly' or church as the Kingdom of Heaven at the end of time.

There is only one identifiable woman who either de facto or de jure claimed to be a prophet of God who claimed to be living at the end of time, and about whom these specific characteristics perfectly apply, but whos identity proves the bondservants (who are being led astray) are members of an identifiable denomination also functioning at the time of the end; this being Ellen White, and hence the SDA church.

The existence of Ellen White as a prophet proves that the SDA church is the end time Kingdom of Heaven, just as the end time Kingdom of Heaven proves that it's female prophet is also (identified by God) a false prophet.

[John317]

.... Some "prophets" only prophecie once. In modern times, Hiram Edson comes to mind. Some say he had a "vision", others say it was a "revelation", perhaps other suggest it was an ephiany after studying the scriptures and the thought just "came to him". I think he had a vision, myself, some kind of divine revelation was given him from God.

There's no question that Hiram Edson's thoughts were influenced by God on the morning after the Great Disappointment, but he himself never referred to it as a vision. Some historians have described it as such, yet significantly Edson never did.

James Nix, director of the Ellen White Estate, wrote his Ph. D. (or Master's?) thesis on Hiram Edson. He'd be a good one to ask about Edson's experience. I'm not sure what his answer would be about that, but it would be interesting to know. My own view is that just because Edson didn't describe it as a divine revelation doesn't mean it wasn't.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Jody

"And they rose early in the morning, and went forth into the wilderness of Tekoa: and as they went forth, Jehoshaphat stood and said, Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper". - 2Ch 20:20 KJV

And:

"Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despire prophecies. Test all things; hold fast what is good." 1 Thess. 5: 19-21.

Rev. 12: 17; 19: 10, make clear that God's last-day people will keep the commandments of God and have the Spirit of prophecy manifested among them. Compare 1 Cor. 12: 28 and Eph. 4: 11-14.

Many people, especially SDA's, have an incorrect understanding of what the 'spirit of prophecy' is. They assume that it means the writings of EGW. This could not be further from the truth. The following text tells us explicitly what the 'spirit of prophecy' really is:

For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Rev. 19:10.

It is not the testimonies of EGW that we should be concentrating on, it is the words and teachings of Jesus Christ and Him alone that will reveal to us everything we need to know about anything, including end time prophecy.

This puts a different spin on this verse:

Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. Rev. 12:17.

The spirit of prophecy is NOT EGW. The Spirit of Prophecy IS the words of Jesus Christ that He gave to those whom He trusted to remember everything He said the them while He was here on earth, that is, His own eyewitness disciples. These are not my words, but the very words of Jesus Christ Himself.

[John317]

When EGW wrote what she did on page 433 of the GC she knew that because of her status in the SDA church that many would take these words to be as reliable as the words of God in the Bible. And yes, I know she called herself merely a 'messenger' and not a prophet, but the church itself has had nearly 200 years to refute to the world that she is not a prophet and they have not done this. The SDA church has named her a 'prophet of God'.Also, at various times people who were deemed reliable authority within the church called her a prophet and SHE DID NOT REFUTE THEM or the church. In legal terms this is called a 'tacit agreement', and is as valid a proof as words spoken in direct agreement.

You seem clearly to assume that Ellen White was dishonest and a manipulator.

She never denied that she was a prophet of God. But she never laid claim to the title because there were so many people who gave a bad reputation to the name. For the same reason, Christ didn't go around publicly claiming the title of Messiah.

Read 1 SM 28-37.

Anyone who doubts that Ellen White was a prophet isn't reading her. She said: "... now when I send you a testimony of warning and reproof, many of you declare it to be merely THE OPINION OF SISTER WHITE. YOU HAVE THEREBY INSULTED THE SPIRIT OF GOD. You know how the Lord has manifested Himself through the Spirit of prophecy." 1 SM 27.

(Ellen White often referred to her writings as "the Spirit of prophecy.")

"Early in my youth I was asked several times, Are you a prophet? I have ever responded, I am the Lord's messenger. I know that many have called me a prophet, but I have made no claim to the title. My Savior declared me to be His messenger. 'Your work," He instructed me, 'is to bear My word.'" 1 SM 32

On page 36, she wrote that her work included much more than the name prophet signifies, and that her "commission embraces the work of a prophet" but that it does not end there.

[John317]

Many people, especially SDA's, have an incorrect understanding of what the 'spirit of prophecy' is. They assume that it means the writings of EGW. This could not be further from the truth. The following text tells us explicitly what the 'spirit of prophecy' really is:

....The spirit of prophecy is NOT EGW.

We've already been over this topic dozens of times on the Forum. SDAs don't believe that Spirit of prophecy was Ellen White. All you have to do do know this is read the Sabbath School quarterlies on the topic. The Spirit of prophecy is the Holy Spirit who speaks through the prophets. Therefore the Spirit of prophecy includes the writings of Ellen White, but it also includes the whole of the Scriptures.

[miz3]

Do you think, in this quote, GC-433 her "opinion", as you put it (I disagree) is correct or incorrect? Did Christ enter the Most Holy Place in 1844, or not, miz3?

Ellen White's OPINION in this case is WRONG!

Jesus Christ entered the Most Holy Place long before 1844.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

Do you think, in this quote, GC-433 her "opinion", as you put it (I disagree) is correct or incorrect? Did Christ enter the Most Holy Place in 1844, or not, miz3?

Ellen White's OPINION in this case is WRONG!

Jesus Christ entered the Most Holy Place long before 1844.

That is your opinion. I'll accept the Bible testimony and the words of Ellen White over your own opinion any day.

[miz3]

We've already been over this topic dozens of times on the Forum. SDAs don't believe that Spirit of prophecy was Ellen White. All you have to do do know this is read the Sabbath School quarterlies on the topic. The Spirit of prophecy is the Holy Spirit who speaks through the prophets.

Now that is a clever twist!

For decades the SDA Church has indeed said that the Spirit of Prophecy is Ellen G. White. They indeed meant her in a very unique way to that they (SDA) are the last day church.

Just ask the SDA who sit in the pews. The "brethren" or the SDA smart brains are tired of taking a beating on this point and have now come up with this clever twist so that Ellen White is included in a list of prophets.

Bob and weave, twist and slight of hand is the norm within the SDA Church. Most pew sitters have not got this new message in regard to Revelation's use of the phrase "Spirit of Prophecy".