70 x 7

[Truth Files]

But Miller was a false prophet .... he missed three datings

He used what you agree with as his selected time values and failed

.... and he ignored the Lord's admonishment that no one can predict the dating of His second coming [Matthew 25:13; Acts 1:6-7]

And many who bought his story had their faith destroyed when his predictions do not come to pass

So the credibility factor of your suggested SDA sources is not there

Close only counts in the game of horse shoes [and Miller missed altogether] ... the Bible prophets are never wrong

.... and I do not see William Miller's name on any prophetic book of the Bible

If he was a prophet it would be there, and his predictions would have been 100% accurate

[ClubV12]

Miller wasn't a prophet, just a theologian studying his bible, as was Snow, Hiram and many others who came to the same conclusions. Now Ellen White was a prophet, but thats after the fact anyway....

[miz3]

Miz3 said:

The Bible does not say "weeks of years"! It just says weeks!

>But, one must understand this by study [a good concordance of the verse you give will tell you what the "heptad" is

Lexicon Results Strong's H7620 - shabuwa` שָׁבוּעַ

Transliteration

shabuwa`

Pronunciation

shä·vü'·ah (Key)

Part of Speech

masculine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

Properly, pass part of שָׁבַע (H7650) as a denom. of שֶׁבַע (H7651)

TWOT Reference

2318d

Outline of Biblical Usage 1) seven, period of seven (days or years), heptad, week

1) period of seven days, a week

2) Feast of Weeks

3) heptad, seven (of years)

>And the proof of this measurement of time can be calculated when rendered properly

>483 prophetic years actually transpired from 445 B.C. [the returning date of the Israelite captives from the Babylonian captivity to the Lord's cutting off in 33 A.D. [study the book of Nehemiah for the Biblical account of the return]

>This calculation proves the bible's accuracy and the validity of the component of the "heptad" [7 360 day years] used to make the calculation

No other time value for "week" makes any sense with respect to the historical record

>You can believe this .... or not .... your choice

Look Strong is entitled to his opinion and so are you. However, the Bible does not say anything about the "heptad". Such constructions are not valid in regard to the Bible passages anywhere.

If God had meant "heptad" He would have clearly delineated this concept within the passage and no such concept exists either explicit or implicit.

You are trying to force an "implicit" method where none exists in the Bible anywhere!

To you and John317 because the passage does not make sense unless you put your nonsense methods and facts of your own into the passage does not make the passage say what you say it does.

Rather than admit you flat out don't understand the passages you have to "inject" all kinds of twisted, nonBiblical garbage into the passage to make it fit you cherished views.

My friends that is now how Truth works! God meant exactly what He wrote through Daniel and the others. If God had wanted all these fancy shmancy additions God would have put them in the Bible. God didn't and so you are wrong in your message and in your methods!

[Truth Files]

I would have to tell you that you have a long way to go with your understanding of the prophetic scriptures

What you call "nonsense" is the Lord's prophetic truth

Not a good place for you to be standing .... better think about this

And you demeanor is really rank .... this tells me much about you

[ClubV12]

And you demeanor is really rank...

Your not the first to notice that Stephen, miz3 is known as the "interogator", bright lights, rubber hoses, intimidation, the whole nine yards.

[miz3]

I would have to tell you that you have a long way to go with your understanding of the prophetic scriptures

What you call "nonsense" is the Lord's prophetic truth

Not a good place for you to be standing .... better think about this

And you demeanor is really rank .... this tells me much about you

I will agree that Daniel and Revelation are God's Truth. However, your nonsense is what you "inject" into the Lord's Truth!

If I were you I would not worry about me but I would worry about where you stand because you have added things to God's Word that God never put into His Word.

In addition, although you are free to call my demeanor whatever you like, saying so demonstrates of lack of substance to your assertions.

[miz3]

TruthFiles,

Tell me where in the Bible is the "heptad" principle either explicitly stated or implicitly stated. If it is there then an elementary student would be able to discern it.

However, if it takes a polished, experienced, phd theologian to understand it then it is NOT THERE!

God did not make the Bible so that only the "theos" could understand it.

As Jesus Christ Himself states (paraphrased) "the knowledge of the Kingdom of Heaven is given to you (uneducated fisherman, the people)".

The "educated theos" of Christ's day missed a lot of it because they "injected" their complex theories, methods, and linguistics, etc. by adding to the Word of God.

Nothing has changed since then. People still add, inject, develop etc. human devisings in order to explain the Bible and then pat themselves on the back that were the smart ones to figure the puzzle out! Such theos are only out to wow the masses not to understand what God actually says.

[Truth Files]

The beginning of the return of Israelites to the land of Israel from the nations in the 20th century is a prelude to the events of the time of the end of this present age reflected in the scope of Bible prophecy. [isaiah 11; Jeremiah 30; Ezekiel 36,37,38, 39; Daniel 9,12; Micah 4,5; Joel:2,3; Zechariah 12,13,14]

Israel's absence or presence in the land of Israel has a direct correlation with stopping and restarting the prophetic clock.

Israel today is positioned for the start of the beginning of the 70th week decreed for the nation by the Lord which will then run its course for a period of 7 years and culminate in His visible presence on the earth. [Daniel 9,12].

The Lord has maintained the Abrahamic covenant with Israel and will carry out His promises to the nation including the establishment of His earthly kingdom for 1,000 years. He will rule the earth from Jerusalem [Micah 4]

Abraham lived in Ur a province of ancient Babylonia which was the center of the Sumerian civilization. He was a descendant of Noah's son Shem and he recognized that there was only one true God. Babylonia's post flood culture was one of paganism.

Abraham is the father of modern Israel and most of the Arab nations that exist today. The southern Babylonians [sumerians] occupying the land of Shinar and the northern Babylonians [Assyrians] occupying the land of Magog are their ancestors. [Genesis 12:1-8]

The countries of modern day Iraq, northeastern Syria, eastern Turkey, and northwestern Iran include a large portion of both of these ancient areas. The inhabitants today are a mixture of Semitic, Hamitic, and Japhetic lineage [a majority are adherents of Islam today].

The Lord had already warned humanity about building their cities and the consequences of organizing to a level that would lead to self-determination and separation from His providence and direction. [Genesis 11:1-9]

This development had grown considerably by the time He called Abraham to leave the area and migrate to establish the land of Israel. [Genesis 10: 8-12]

His purpose was to separate a people for Himself who would be different from all of the rest of humanity [unbelieving nations of the Gentiles] by recognizing Him as the only true God and creator of the universe.

Israel would then be a witness to an unbelieving, unsaved world by their relationship to Him through their coming Messiah and King Jesus Christ.

Part of His purpose with Israel has been a success by producing the scriptures contained in the Bible through the nation's prophets, scribes, and apostles.

Israel is also the nation that the Lord came to for His mission on the cross and will be the nation that He will return to at the end of this present age.

Israel as a national people did not fulfill their part of the Lord's expectations and failed in their relationship with Him.

As a result He has subjected them to exist in the world without His providence and they have paid the price. Greater difficulties are scheduled at the end of this present age.

It is significant that the nation of Israel is existing as an independent political entity in the land of Israel today after many centuries of domination by the Gentiles and exile from their land.

The nation's continuous intransigence against the Lord's providence and direction has resulted in the loss of His personal guidance and revelation. Israel as a nation is still in this condition at the present time.

The Lord's long term preservation of Israel's national identity is specifically for His ultimate plans.....not Israel's self-generated nationalism.

The years following the reign of Israel's prominent kings David and his son Solomon included political division of the nation and subsequent invasion and assimilation of ten of the tribes of Israel by the Assyrians.

Successive dominance of a remnant part of the nation followed by the three Middle Eastern empires of neo-Babylon, Persia, and Grecia.

The neo-Babylonians conquered what was left of the remnant, took many captives, and relocated the population. It was under the rule of the next empire, Persia, that a remnant of Israel was allowed to return to the Land of Israel [445 B.C.].

This began the count down of the 70 weeks of years [490 literal years] decreed for the nation. 483 years have lapsed with one 7 year period yet to be experienced by Israel after their second return from the nations of the Gentiles to the land of Israel. [Daniel 9:24-27]

If the death and resurrection of Jesus occurred around 33 A.D. then the following calculation can be made. The time lapse would be 444 calendar years to the first century from 445 B.C. plus 33 additional years to equal 477 years.

The conversion factor for 360 day prophetic years can be calculated by dividing 365 by 360 which is 1.0138. Prophetic years are shorter so there are more of them included in the time frame of 477 calendar years.

There are 483.5826 [477 x 1.0138] prophetic years in the time frame. If one adjusts this result by leap year days, the final calculation is very close to 483 years [69 weeks of years].

Daniel's vision of the time frame allows for this amount of time to lapse after which the Messiah Prince would be cut off and have nothing.

The last segment of 7 years [1 week of years .... 1 heptad of 7 years]) is still yet future and requires Israel's return to the Land of Israel from the nations.

This final 7 years will include future prophetic events leading up to the visible return of Israel's Messiah who is Jesus Christ.

A remnant of Israel returned during the Persian Empire and were subjects of the next rulers of the Middle East. Attempts were made to regain independence from their Greek overlords, but with limited success.

Much difficulty was experienced as a result of the behavior of the Greek kings of the north who continuously imposed cultural and religious practices upon the remnant.

Similar conditions were experienced under Roman rule in the first century and the small Jewish remnant was eventually attacked, persecuted, killed, and scattered .... virtually removed from the land of Israel.

The end of the 69th week [483 years] decreed for Israel lapsed at the departure of Jesus from the earth [about 33 A.D.]. Subsequent Roman invasions are not included in the scope of Biblical prophecy as it relates to the time of the end.

Israel's current presence in the Land of Israel is a prelude to the beginning of the 70th week which will lead up to the coming of their Messiah a second time.

The nation will experience an unprecedented time of trouble ("Jacob's" trouble), but a believing remnant part will be rescued by the Lord at His second coming. [Jeremiah 30]

He will establish His literal Kingdom and rule over Israel and the world for 1,000 years. [Micah 4; Revelation 20]

Another satanically inspired human rebellion will occur at the end of His Kingdom which will result in the total destruction of the earth, its rebellious inhabitants, and the entire universe. [Revelation 20]

The Lord will then recondition the universe and the earth for eternity without imperfection. All evil will be eliminated including satan, the fallen angels, and all unsaved humans [Revelation 19; 20; 21].

[miz3]

Too complex besides not being Biblical!

[miz3]

Without the unBiblical "heptad" the whole thing falls apart!

[Truth Files]

It appears to me that you are a troll with a psychological tick miz3 .... I see them on Internet message boards all of the time

I have a rule about trolls [those who run around and attach to the posts of others for the purpose of attracting attention to themselves by condescending refutations

.... I simply don't respond to them

Much like the adult/child relationship when the child falls to the floor and throws a fit .... the appropriate adult response is to ignore the child

[miz3]

So this how you react to those who question your "adult" position.

I merely asked for Bible proof of the "heptad"!

(Words edited by the moderator.)

[John317]

>483 prophetic years actually transpired from 445 B.C. [the returning date of the Israelite captives from the Babylonian captivity to the Lord's cutting off in 33 A.D. [study the book of Nehemiah for the Biblical account of the return]

>This calculation proves the bible's accuracy and the validity of the component of the "heptad" [7 360 day years] used to make the calculation

No other time value for "week" makes any sense with respect to the historical record

Are you using lunar or solar years for your computation?

I think 490 years works better, beginning in 457 BC, which was when Artexerxes gave the command found in Ezra 7. That command fits the prophecy of Daniel 9: 24 much more fully than that of Nehemiah 1 & 2. The command in Nehemiah 1 & 2 is mostly concerned with the rebuilding of the walls.

The full 70 weeks (490 years) takes you from 457 BC to 34 AD, when the gospel went to the gentiles. All 70 weeks go together. There's no biblical reason to cut off the last week from the other 69 and transfer it to a period thousands of years after the end of the 69 weeks. If you believe there is a good biblical reason for doing this, please explain and show the reason.

Doesn't 483 years from 445 BC take you to about the year 38 AD?

It seems to me that the full 490 years from 445 BC would take you to about 45 AD.

Are you agreed that Christ's public ministry commenced in 27 AD?

[John317]

There is one big flaw in all these prophetic theories regardless of who they come from.

There is no year/day Principle anywhere in the Bible!

Please give us your understanding of the fulfillment of Daniel 7: 24-27.

[John317]

But Miller was a false prophet .... he missed three datings

.... and I do not see William Miller's name on any prophetic book of the Bible

If he was a prophet it would be there, and his predictions would have been 100% accurate

Miller was not a prophet-- he was a Bible expositor and a student of the prophecies, and that is all he ever claimed to be. He never claimed to be a prophet. He was a self-educated, licensed Baptist minister, a farmer by trade. He had no personal desire to preach but felt that God had called him to give the message he found in the Bible after years of personal study. During the time he preached, he was asked to preach in hundreds of churches all over the eastern part of the USA, including churches of most of the various denominations. No one at the time could find fault with his prophetic interpretations.

Miller was obviously wrong about Christ's return to the earth.

His primary error was that he believed the sanctuary to be cleansed was this earth, although the Bible never teaches that the earth is the sanctuary. The only sanctuaries in the Bible are the earthly and the heavenly. In 1844, there hadn't been an earthly sanctuary in close to 2000 years. There is, however, a heavenly sanctuary that needs cleansing, according to Hebrews 9: 23. It was typified by the earthly cleansing on the Day of Atonement. Lev. 16.

9:23 [it was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

[hch]

Originally Posted By: hch

Thus there is an instance where Daniel 8:14 is literal time in the first (local) application and a day for a year in a secondary 2300-year application.

The local application is fine!

But for you to make a "secondary application" is a tortured logic. Besides the Daniel passage never ever implies that there is a "secondary app" existent!

Secondary apps are the result of one's imagination.

As to Ezekiel 4:6 that was a local app only! The context of the passage does not allow you make a broad sweeping Principle out it. Again this is tortured logic in order to stretch the actual facts.

Does not cut it!

[Truth Files]

"Are you using lunar or solar years for your computation?"

1.The 360 day prophetic year must be used

2.Example 1260 days = 3.5 years [time (1), times (2), half time(.5)]

3.One must also adjust for leap years during the period

If the death of Jesus occurred around 33 A.D. then the following calculation can be made. The time lapse would be 444 calendar years to the first century from 445 B.C. [Decree to return and build the city of Jerusalem] plus 33 additional years to equal 477 years. The conversion factor for 360 day prophetic years can be calculated by dividing 365 by 360 which is 1.0138. Prophetic years are shorter so there are more of them included in the time frame of 477 calendar years.

There are 483.5826 [477 x 1.0138] prophetic years in the time frame. If one adjusts this result by leap year days, the final calculation is very close to 483 years [69 weeks of years]. Daniel's vision of the time frame allows for this amount of time to lapse after which the Messiah Prince would be cut off and have nothing.

The next 70th week [1260 days +1260 days] has never taken place as described for Daniel's people [not the church of today] ..... this time frame is scheduled for the end of this present age and it will transpire just as a number of the prophets tell

Jesus Himself gives the projection of this same 70th week in His discourse which is a focus upon His nation of Israel [not the church of today] at the time of the end [Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21] .... His Revelation covers the same time frame .... "the things hereafter"

Just "after" the fullness of the gentiles has been added to His church of today [Romans 11:25-36; Revelation 1:19]

Israel has rejected Him as the nation's Messiah and King, and still does today .... but this condition is going to change and He will confirm the covenant [Jeremiah 31:31-37] with a believing remnant part of the nation during the 70th week

All 6 objectives will be met for the "many" [Daniel 9:24]

This believing remnant will consist of the 144,000, those who will flee, and those still residing in the nations at the time [Revelation 7:1-8; 14:1-7; Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:15-16; Luke 21:21-22; Revelation 12:6; 12:14-17]

These are the same who will survive the tribulation period [Zechariah 13:8-9] and gathered to enter and populate [reproduce as mortals] His coming millennial kingdom [isaiah 11: 27:13; Ezekiel 36; Joel 3:16-21; Micah 5:7-8; Zechariah 14:6-11; Matthew 24:29-31; Acts 1:6; Romans 11:25-36]

[cricket]

I know there's three (or five) pages on this topic, but honestly, I still don't even know what event (or events) this is supposed to be calculatin'. Initially I was drawn to it because of the title of the thread, which to me meant it would be about forgiveness.

[miz3]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Daniel 12:4

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

So for one to take the position that Daniel did not have anything to say that was relevant for his time is to deny that Daniel clearly stated to King Nebuchadnezzar "Thou art this head of gold." That view detaches Daniel from his time.

For one to take the view that Daniel was relevant to his time and that is it, is to deny the word of God that states that Daniel is to be understood in the endtime.

There is no secondary application!

You are basing your whole premise on a false fact! That false fact is that the word "endtime" or as in Daniel 12:4 which you cited above "time of the end" means "some way down to our day or even further into the future".

The phrase "time of the end" could mean the time when the prophecy ends. It does not necessarily mean way into the future (as in our time now)!

For Daniel anything after his death would be future and the prophecy indeed was to end after his death. The events cited by Daniel could be explained quite rationally by things that happened after Daniel's death until the birth of Jesus Christ. You may not like such interpretations but they are nonetheless more valid than to think God meant something way down to our time.

The bottom line is that the phrase "time of the end" could mean the "the time of the end" of the prophecy! It is a valid point.

[miz3]

cricket,

They are spouting complex garbage that is not worth trying to figure it out. God would never, ever make anything so complex, so tortured, so contorted, etc.

How can anyone get a Spiritual Blessing out of something this full of complex nonsense!

God didn't write the Bible so only scholars could show off how brilliant they are in figuring complex puzzles. It is just another reenactment of the Dark Ages when the RCC priests held the only interpretations because the people were too "dumb" to understand.

These human merchants of "intelligence" want everyone to come to them for the "truth". It is only through them that "truth" can be known. This is of course so much garbage because God intends that you, cricket, should be able to see the Truth for yourself aided only by God's Holy Spirit! You do not need these "intelligence merchants" and their fancy shamcy theories.

When God is ready for you to understand the message of Daniel or any other part of the Bible God will lead your honest truth seeking heart right to the correct Truth! Just continue to ask God for His guidance in the Scripture and to know things on God's timing not anyone else's timing. God knows best for you!

[Truth Files]

"I know there's three (or five) pages on this topic, but honestly, I still don't even know what event (or events) this is supposed to be calculatin'. Initially I was drawn to it because of the title of the thread, which to me meant it would be about forgiveness"

It is

This is also a signature of the Lord's providence .... His promise to forgive the sinner

This same relationship exists regarding His nation of Israel and His continued intent to bring a remnant part of the nation under His covenant [Jeremiah 31:31-37] at the end of this present age during the 70th week decreed

70 x 7 is the time lapse given for the nation's eventual redemption ..... 483 prophetic years from the return out of the Babylonian captivity ..... then a pause after His rejection by His people [2000 years and running] .... then the 70th week [Romans 11:25-36]

He will keep His promise to forgive and preserve a believing remnant of national Israel just as He promises to forgive and save the gentiles of the nations who believe in Him

[cricket]

I see the connection you are trying to make now. I get it. Still not sure that God has a time limit (or a limit on the number of times {or persons} He will forgive).

Got it. Carry on.

[John317]

"Are you using lunar or solar years for your computation?"

1.The 360 day prophetic year must be used

2.Example 1260 days = 3.5 years [time (1), times (2), half time(.5)]

3.One must also adjust for leap years during the period

I agree with you. :-)

[John317]

cricket,

They are spouting complex garbage that is not worth trying to figure it out.

It would be nice if you could figure out a nicer way to say you don't agree with someone.

Let's remember to practice the Golden Rule. It helps the conversation along. :-)

[Lysimachus]

To Truth Files,

Greetings to you Truth Files, and welcome to this board. I will confess, I was a bit surprised to see someone with your theological background have the guts to join an Adventist Forum and share his beliefs. Very few have the courage to do that. You are no doubt very passionate about what you believe, and therefore, will naturally share that passion with those of other theological persuasions. I know this from personal experience. How so? I am just as passionate about Adventist Historicism as you are about Dispensational Futurism, and am authoring a book. But sadly, I have not been greeted so well by those of opposing theological persuasions. When I have attempted to post my eschatological and theological constructs on discussion boards of a dispensational or futurist persuasion, it did not take long before I was reported to mods, and instead of dealing with my arguments, they banned me.

So be thankful, and count yourself very blessed and well-treated in this discussion board, because had this been a Dispensational board (such as RaptureReady.com or RaptureForums.com), and you were of another theological persuasion, it wouldn't be long before they all mob-lynched you and kicked you out. They are very strict in who they let in their cloister, and can act far more unreasonable and emotional than what you will find from members in here. Guaranteed.

I am the author of a book I am presently writing entitled "Vindicating the Historicist Hermeneutic". Perhaps the name will later to change to "Vindicating the Historical Approach of Bible Prophecy" or "Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation". In this book I have exhaustively dealt with Dispensational-Futurist ideology, as well as the 70 weeks and the flawed Dispensational/Futurist calculations of Anderson and Hoehner. Thanks to Bob Pickle for doing most of the hard-work concerning the actual flawed calculations revolving the 173,880 days.

To start out with, I will just briefly state that your belief system is built on so many layers and layers of what I consider to be false premises, that it would take, well, practically my whole book to refute everything you said in just your first post. We could discuss the concept of Israel and the Church without involving prophetic calculations or numbers, we could discuss it from the perspective of Futurism and its origins, or we could even discuss it from the angle of how we should properly understand many Old Testament prophecies and their local, Palestinian types as opposed to their New Testament Antitypes. I could show you, for example, why many old testament prophetic types were never fully realized, but will reach their acme of fulfillment on a global-world-wide spiritual basis, antitypically. This is related to a principle I define as "Conditional Types of Unconditional Antitypes". I dealt with this in an article I wrote entitled The Antitypical Fulfillment of Old Testament Typology Concerning Ancient Israel.

Or, we could just discuss the 70 weeks alone without bringing along any other variables into the picture. I would propose this to be the best approach if we are going to get something done. Why? Because if the Dispensational-Futurist calculations of the 70 weeks fail, then their entire theological and eschatological framework comes crashing down to the ground in one massive sweep. This is the fastest way to cut right through all the slack and get to the chase.

Keep in mind that I believe God's time-tables are simple, and God designed them to be simple and understood by the average layperson. The moment extreme complex figures come into play, it is a sign of Babylonian confusion. Example: When you tell someone a year is a year, they are able to count years without involving complex figures and advanced multiplications. I believe the Adventist Historicist principles of prophetic interpretation are simple and easy to make sense of by the common person. Now you may try to turn this argument on me by stating that my articles are very "detailed" and can come across "confusing". This is a half truth. What I have presented can be presented in a simple manner, but that is not the purpose of my book. The purpose of my book is to UNRAVEL the grossly complex theological and eschatological framework of Dispensational Futurism. So thus it requires complex calculations and advanced detail in order to dismantle such a complex system. In other words, it takes complexity at times to dismantle complexity. But our system can be presented in a simple, straighforward matter, whereas, the Dispensational eschatological architecture cannot. God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 15:33).

Be informed that I am limited on time, so if I am slow to respond, it is not because I am ignoring your posts. I have spent the last 10-15 years or so studying eschatology from a Dispensational/Futurist perspective, and am now more confident than ever that it is a master-mind, well-constructed deception of the most grandiose order---the most diabolical counterfeit prophecy ever constructed on the face of the planet. I am also 100% convinced that the origins of Dispensational Futurism stem back to the Papacy, and the Jesuits in the Counter Reformation. It is my conviction that this entire theological system is a cradle to help hone in the New World Order and bring about a masterpiece deception before the whole world. I could not be more settled on this based on my exhaustive years of research.

I wrote an article on this entitled The Origins of Dispensational Futurism, providing additional resources, links, and radio shows that give the necessary tools for further research.

In my next post, I will deal specifically with the Biblical and Mathmatical issues concerning the 70 weeks of Daniel 9. It is my hope that something will get accomplished as a result of this discussion, and that if I am able to prove you wrong, you might be open to the possibility of changing your mind on what you believe concerning your prophetic system, and well, be open to having to re-write your book once we are finished. ;-)

Blessings to you, and I'll be back soon.

~Lysimachus

Marcos S. - Author of Vindicating the Historicist Hermeneutic