70 x 7

[Lysimachus]

My friend hch,

If you want to establish a year/day Principle the only places I know that this is possible:

1. In the imagination of humans throughout history!

2. The writings of Ellen White!

I singled Ellen White as a separate item from number one because SDA believe that she is "inspired Scripture".

Otherwise Ellen White fits nicely into number one because like all other humans she is entitled to her opinion on the issue!

Thus, all this complex garbage and intricate math with varied calendars, and etc. is exactly that "GARBAGE"!

Such garbage does not come from the Lord. It is just confusion.

It bothers people to read Daniel and Revelation and find they don't understand it and this drives them crazy! So in the way of human nature they grab at any straw for plausible explanations. If no credible explanation shows up, then it is time to create a complex, contorted, convoluted, intricate, etc. mess in order to:

1. "Con" the common human!

2. Elevate the greatness of the human expositor and/or the Church!

3. Etc. Etc.

Unfortunately for these religious theorists the Bible and the Bible only refutes quite easily their con game! Jesus Christ was always doing this with the Jewish Leaders of His day! The common people loved it because finally they were able to hear God's Voice in terms simple enough a child could understand it!

This garbage on this thread is not God's Voice and no child could comprehend it! It does not have the approval of God because:

1. It is not Biblical!

2. It is too complex!

[John317]

2 Peter 3:8

Quote:

But there is one thing, my dear friends, that you must never forget: that with the Lord, a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Now this is a more worthy proof of 1 day=1K years and 1K years=1 day than those offered for 1 day=1 year.

I don't agree. Notice it says "a day is like a thousand years." It is not saying that a day = a thousand years. But then it also says that "a thousand years is like a day." Does this mean that in prophetic time a thousand years, such as the millennium, is actually one day? Clearly not.

It also says that this is how God sees time. In other words, God's view of time is totally different from ours, and we need to consider this when we think it's been such a long time since Christ promised to return to judge the wicked. Therefore it is not telling us how long a period of time is in the Bible.

[miz3]

We do believe Ellen White's messages to the church were inspired, but we don't claim that she is "Scripture." She wouldn't have wanted anyone to see her writings in that way.

It pains me to say this, but when ClubV12 admits numerous times that he believes Ellen White is "Scripture" he reflects what the vast majority of SDA believe and also practice!

The way you, John317, use Ellen White on this very forum demonstrates that by practice you think so too. However, you are too smart to get trapped into admitting that Ellen White is Scripture because you know the danger of such a stand. However, like I said there is clearly a vast difference between your practice and your words.

Second, the year/day thing is not Biblical because Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6 SAY NOTHING ABOUT THIS BEING A PRINCIPLE. I have already shown this.

However, John317 you are entitled to your own opinion. If you want to think there is such a method for calculating Daniel and Revelation then be my guest. This of course does not mean that you can state that something is fact when the Bible clearly and unambiguously does not support such a "year/day principle".

Neither Numbers 14:34 nor Ezekiel 4:6 state in any way shape or form that we need to apply these methods to all "prophetic times".

[ClubV12]

Whoosh,,, that was sound of another black ball attempting to stain my garment hurled over my head,,,

Had to jump out of the way.

Sadly, it has been my experience, thus far, that many SDA's do not give the inspired writings of Ellen White, messenger of the Lord, as much credence as it is due. But I shall in no wise treat them with any less respect than others.

Now those who knowingly "fight against" the Spirit of Prophecy, thats another issue all together!

[John317]

The way you, John317, use Ellen White on this very forum demonstrates that by practice you think so too. However, you are too smart to get trapped into admitting that Ellen White is Scripture because you know the danger of such a stand. However, like I said there is clearly a vast difference between your practice and your words.

Please show what post you refer to when you say the way I use Ellen White on this very Forum demonstrates that I think Ellen White is equal to Scripture or that she is in fact Scripture. I'm asking you to give the post# and the name of the thread where your claim is shown clearly to be true.

Your words above appear to show that you believe you can read people's hearts and minds.

It is one thing to tell people that it appears to you that they believe something, but it is altogether different to tell them that they are too smart to say what they really think.

Is this how you want others on this Forum to talk to you?

Please do not talk this way to other people here unless you plan for them to write the same to you and tell you what motivates you and what you are really thinking.

Doing it is against the rules of the forum in order to keep the exchanges civil.

[Lysimachus]

Second, the year/day thing is not Biblical because Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6 SAY NOTHING ABOUT THIS BEING A PRINCIPLE. I have already shown this.

Oh yes it does miz3!

Clearly, and unequivocally, Ezekiel was a SYMBOL of his own nation when he was lying down on his side for 40 days! Each one of these days stood for 40 years. This is a no-brainer. All of our intelligent Reformers were unanimous on the meaning of Ezekiel 4:6, but here you come along, with your own PRIVATE interpretation of scripture, and wish to convince us that you know what this verse is talking about more than ALL of them put together!

I'm sorry miz3, but it just doesn't work that way. It's time to face the music, and move forward.

Time is too short to be playing games like this. Enough has held us back from hastening the Lord's return, and we're frankly very weary of it.

[miz3]

The year-day principle stand without impeachment, and was INGRAINED in Protestant hermenuetical principles, long before there was a William Miller, and LONG before there was an Ellen White.

Just on the 2300 days alone, there were approximately 75 expositors the world-over who subscribed to the day-year principle, and unanimously concluded, ALL independent of one another, that the 2300 evening-mornings of Daniel 8:14 terminated somewhere around 1843, 1844, or 1847 (depending on certain variables in their starting calculations). When one studies how the Holy Spirit moved, convicting these men on the terminus of the 2300 without being influenced by one another, one cannot help and be in AWE how much control the Holy Spirit was in guiding men's minds to subscribe to the Day-For-Year Principle.

I don't care if you line up a million scholars end to end from as far back as you want to take it. That does not make unBiblical theories TRUTH!

THE BIBLE AND THE BIBLE ONLY IN ITS OWN LANGUAGE TELLS US WHAT IS TRUTH!

During the "dark ages" Bibles were chained to monastery walls and kept from the common people so that only the "the big spiritual brains" could interpret it. You are sounding like these very same folk when you say that only by "scholarship" can we understand the Word of God. That means just like in the "dark ages" you commoners sit back listen to us and then believe us! Spout what we spout and you will know the facts.

I reject that "spiritual elitism" garbage that you are spouting! Such "elitism" is only further proof of that your stuff is not the truth but is just "theo nonsense"!

As I told John317 you are entitled to use whatever method you want to calculate whatever you like. What you are not entitled to is making the Bible say what it does not say.

Shame on you for trying to brow beat me with your elitist theo garbage! You and your theo friends can think you are the "cats meow" but I don't.

The Jewish rulers of Christ's day also thought they were the "cat's meow" but they weren't. Like them it is apparent that you do not know the Scriptures!

[Lysimachus]

I don't care if you line up a million scholars end to end from as far back as you want to take it. That does not make unBiblical theories TRUTH!

THE BIBLE AND THE BIBLE ONLY IN ITS OWN LANGUAGE TELLS US WHAT IS TRUTH!

During the "dark ages" Bibles were chained to monastery walls and kept from the common people so that only the "the big spiritual brains" could interpret it. You are sounding like these very same folk when you say that only by "scholarship" can we understand the Word of God. That means just like in the "dark ages" you commoners sit back listen to us and then believe us! Spout what we spout and you will know the facts.

I reject that "spiritual elitism" garbage that you are spouting! Such "elitism" is only further proof of that your stuff is not the truth but is just "theo nonsense"!

As I told John317 you are entitled to use whatever method you want to calculate whatever you like. What you are not entitled to is making the Bible say what it does not say.

Shame on you for trying to brow beat me with your elitist theo garbage! You and your theo friends can think you are the "cats meow" but I don't.

The Jewish rulers of Christ's day also thought they were the "cat's meow" but they weren't. Like them it is apparent that you do not know the Scriptures!

And you are clearly ignoring the Biblical arguments I did give, along with several links (such as 80 year-day parallels, etc.).

If you reject the day-year theory, miz3, you will never see that the Antichrist/Beast Power is realized in the Papal System.

I am convinced that this will spell disaster for many of those in the last days, and such a refusal will indirectly cause them to receive the Mark of the Beast, and be lost.

This issue is a lot more serious than you may think. It's a life or death matter--especially for those who willfully and obstinately reject these sound hermeneutical principles of prophetic interpretation.

[John317]

[miz3]

Oh yes it does miz3!

Clearly, and unequivocally, Ezekiel was a SYMBOL of his own nation when he was lying down on his side for 40 days! Each one of these days stood for 40 years. This is a no-brainer. All of our intelligent Reformers were unanimous on the meaning of Ezekiel 4:6, but here you come along, with your own PRIVATE interpretation of scripture, and wish to convince us that you know what this verse is talking about more than ALL of them put together!

I'm sorry miz3, but it just doesn't work that way. It's time to face the music, and move forward.

Time is too short to be playing games like this. Enough has held us back from hastening the Lord's return, and we're frankly very weary of it.

Ok, Ezekiel is SYMBOL! Just because Ezekiel is symbol does not mean that all symbol is treated in the same way. Ezekiel does not say that we are treat all symbol the same as Ezekiel 4:6. Thus your "SYMBOL" theory cited above does not even come close to cutting it.

You cannot show me from the text itself that there is a "Broad all using principle". Such is only a human assumption. It does not matter how much unanimity you have for your "theo garbage" it still does not make it true.

Next I don't care whether you are convinced or not. That's not my job. The Holy Spirit is the one Whose job that is. I am only a humble one who shares.

If you are not convinced you are not accountable to me. Whether you are convinced or not I will keep sharing what I know!

Your interpretation is just as PRIVATE AS ANY I HAVE SEEN! I quote you Scripture and believe it means what it says. You cite Scripture and then write a treatise on what that singular verse means, using linguistics, history, inferred logic, cultural concepts, etc. In doing this you complicate the simple plain Word of God as if God left out something and now has designated your big brain to fill in what God left out.

I hate to tell you this, BUT GOD LEFT NOTHING OUT THE SCRIPTURE THAT REQUIRES YOU TO FILL IT IN!

Thus, it demonstrates just how arrogant, elitist, and PRIVATE INTERPRETER you are!

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: RLH

I have many books and study Bibles by prominent non-SDA scholars who agree with this date of 27 AD for Christ's baptism, so no one can accurately say that this date is merely an SDA idea. It is firmly fixed in history. [/quote']

You are very correct John317. There are a many great non-SDA scholars who subscribe to these dates. Unfortunately, they seem to be more quiet and stay in the "background". I would assume it is because many of them are not as passionate about Bible prophecy as Adventists and Dispensationalists. Calvinists and Presbyterians, for example, are Historicists and Preterists. Yet they rarely talk on prophecy. They are more absorbed with issues revolving soteriology it seems, or the nature of salvation.

[John317]

.. What you are not entitled to is making the Bible say what it does not say.

This applies to everyone, including yourself, of course.

Remember that people could say the same thing about you.

It is best to talk about the evidence and show it rather than draw broad conclusions and make accusations like you have here.

If the Bible does not say what people claim, it is almost always very evident, and therefore there is no need to go back and forth with accusations about who makes the Bible say what it doesn't say. It will be plain for readers to see for themselves.

I would be much more interested in seeing you show by evidence and argument that Lysimachus' posts are wrong. Take his arguments and the points of evidence one by one and show that they are false. Can you do this?

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Oh yes it does miz3!

Clearly, and unequivocally, Ezekiel was a SYMBOL of his own nation when he was lying down on his side for 40 days! Each one of these days stood for 40 years. This is a no-brainer. All of our intelligent Reformers were unanimous on the meaning of Ezekiel 4:6, but here you come along, with your own PRIVATE interpretation of scripture, and wish to convince us that you know what this verse is talking about more than ALL of them put together!

I'm sorry miz3, but it just doesn't work that way. It's time to face the music, and move forward.

Time is too short to be playing games like this. Enough has held us back from hastening the Lord's return, and we're frankly very weary of it.

Ok, Ezekiel is SYMBOL! Just because Ezekiel is symbol does not mean that all symbol is treated in the same way. Ezekiel does not say that we are treat all symbol the same as Ezekiel 4:6. Thus your "SYMBOL" theory cited above does not even come close to cutting it.

You cannot show me from the text itself that there is a "Broad all using principle". Such is only a human assumption. It does not matter how much unanimity you have for your "theo garbage" it still does not make it true.

Next I don't care whether you are convinced or not. That's not my job. The Holy Spirit is the one Whose job that is. I am only a humble one who shares.

If you are not convinced you are not accountable to me. Whether you are convinced or not I will keep sharing what I know!

Your interpretation is just as PRIVATE AS ANY I HAVE SEEN! I quote you Scripture and believe it means what it says. You cite Scripture and then write a treatise on what that singular verse means, using linguistics, history, inferred logic, cultural concepts, etc. In doing this you complicate the simple plain Word of God as if God left out something and now has designated your big brain to fill in what God left out.

I hate to tell you this, BUT GOD LEFT NOTHING OUT THE SCRIPTURE THAT REQUIRES YOU TO FILL IT IN!

Thus, it demonstrates just how arrogant, elitist, and PRIVATE INTERPRETER you are!

Ezekiel does not cut it alone. Have you forgotten the 70 weeks?

I have already proven that the day-year principle must be employed for the 70 weeks.

If this is true, everything you have said so far cannot stand.

[John317]

The 70 Weeks of Daniel 9 are a Part of the 2300 Days of Daniel 8

Wonderful posts and information, Lysimachus. Thanks so much for posting them. They are really worth studying.

I will be most interested in what Truth Files has to say about your posts.

[miz3]

And you are clearly ignoring the Biblical arguments I did give, along with several links (such as 80 year-day parallels, etc.).

If you reject the day-year theory, miz3, you will never see that the Antichrist/Beast Power is realized in the Papal System.

I am convinced that this will spell disaster for many of those in the last days, and such a refusal will indirectly cause them to receive the Mark of the Beast, and be lost.

This issue is a lot more serious than you may think. It's a life or death matter--especially for those who willfully and obstinately reject these sound hermeneutical principles of prophetic interpretation.

Look at you. I was right! You use elitist words like "Hermeneutical". That is not people talk. That is elitist talk!

Hermeneutical, he! he! Why don't you like Christ talk the common language of the people?

As to your main thrust here. Such scare tactics to get people to line up with your point of view has been around for millennia. The "post WWII" evangelists used this tactic to scare people into coming to alter and become SDA. it was extremely common in those days. I see that you fit right into the old SDA tactic of "fear". "You won't be saved unless you accept this message." (with raised eyebrows, "Oh boy!")

I guess this is all you have since the Bible does not support your view.

However it is still shameful behavior! I will not fall for such charlatan tactics.

[John317]

Look at you. I was right! You use elitist words like "Hermeneutical". That is not people talk. That is elitist talk!

Hermeneutical, he! he! Why don't you like Christ talk the common language of the people?

This is off topic. Deal with the evidence. Your words here are really a personal attack, the same as if someone were to attack you for being ignorant or "low-brow" on the basis of your language. It won't be allowed here from either side of a discussion. So get back on the topic.

[John317]

Please reply to post#461290.

[miz3]

This applies to everyone, including yourself, of course.

Remember that people could say the same thing about you.

It is best to talk about the evidence and show it rather than draw broad conclusions and make accusations like you have here.

Yes, they could say the same thing about me, but they would be wrong.

I have shown you the evidence. I cited the Bible in its full context showed you that what you call the "year/day Principle" does not exist.

You have not taken the same texts and shown that that such a Principle exists.

Instead I was belittled for taking such a view. I was told I was out of step with most Protestant "expositors". I was told how I disagreed with this elitist view and that elitist view. I was dumped on with more "hermeneutical" nonsense.

Everything was thrown at me but to be shown the Scripture and how "clearly" and forthrightly the "year/day all prevailing principle" is there in plain language.

Like I said I have shown you in the clearest possible language alongside the full passage of Scripture that such a "principle" does not exist.

Either you accept it or you don't!

In view of all that you now attack me as if I am the one who has not brought forth correct dialogue?

That is rich John317 even for you!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Daniel 12:4

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

History shows us that men run to and fro NOW more than they ever did in Christ's day or Daniel's day. There was virtually no change in modes of transportation in that time-span: foot power, beast of burden, sailing ship. But about the time of Abraham Lincoln (mid 1800's) steam engines to drive boats and trains. And since then you will agree it has been astounding.

History shows us that knowledge has increased NOW more than it ever did between Christ's day and Daniel's day. I do not recall the exact rate though I heard it a few years ago, but the gist of it is that knowledge is doubling every few years now.

Do you think that the "running to and fro" and the increase in knowledge that it speaks of in Daniel 12: 4 is primarily referring to the study of the book of Daniel and the increase in knowledge of the prophecy?

At the same time, however, I wouldn't doubt that it's also talking about the increase in intellectual knowledge and in the travel of people throughout the world.

[miz3]

John317,

I have looked back at my words and I have not made any personal attacks.

I have shown the evidence. I have labeled elitist usages as such because they are!

If you are looking for a way to shut me up that is your prerogative. After all you are the moderator.

I just think it is a shame that when I used clear unambiguous Bible proof that you were wrong you are now offended.

I was the one threatened that I would be lost and burn in hell unless I saw things Lysimachus way! I would say that is pretty personal. I never said anything close to that.

Yet you jump on me and let the other poster go!

[John317]

In view of all that you now attack me as if I am the one who has not brought forth correct dialogue?

That is rich John317 even for you!

As Moderator:

All I am saying here is that we need to talk to each other in civil, thoughtful ways. We can do that even though we disagree over things. If we can't, then it is better to terminate the discussion. The Holy Spirit cannot bless discussions where people have anger or bitterness towards each other.

As I said before, remember the Golden Rule. I am saying this to all, including myself.

Let's keep the discussion focussed on the topic and evidence and get off the personalities or the persons.

[miz3]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: miz3

The way you, John317, use Ellen White on this very forum demonstrates that by practice you think so too. However, you are too smart to get trapped into admitting that Ellen White is Scripture because you know the danger of such a stand. However, like I said there is clearly a vast difference between your practice and your words.

Please show what post you refer to when you say the way I use Ellen White on this very Forum demonstrates that I think Ellen White is equal to Scripture or that she is in fact Scripture. I'm asking you to give the post# and the name of the thread where your claim is shown clearly to be true.

Your words above appear to show that you believe you can read people's hearts and minds.

It is one thing to tell people that it appears to you that they believe something, but it is altogether different to tell them that they are too smart to say what they really think.

Is this how you want others on this Forum to talk to you?

Please do not talk this way to other people here unless you plan for them to write the same to you and tell you what motivates you and what you are really thinking.

Doing it is against the rules of the forum in order to keep the exchanges civil.

Notice what I said, John317! I said the way you use Ellen White on this forum demonstrates....! That is an expression of personal opinion. It is not a personal attack. I have seen how, where, when etc. you use Ellen White and I believe that you use her like you use Scripture. You use her to prove almost all your points. If you use Ellen White to prove Truth then in my view that is using Ellen White as Scripture!

That is what I see and what I believe. It is no less an opinion when ClubV12 stated that I do not believe in the "inspiration" of Ellen White when I have stated before that I believe some of her writings are "inspired".

You did not chastise ClubV12 for stating his opinion as to what he thinks I am and what I believe.

I am seeing, maybe I am wrong, a double standard here!

I think like ClubV12 I am entitled to my opinion of what you believe just as ClubV12 is entitled to his opinion of what I believe. I see no difference in the two posts.

I was expressing an opinion!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I think 70 x 7 is a piece of lumber... you know, like a two by four? Now if it was a 4 x 4 it would be a piece of medical gauze... but then again, I have an 8 x 8 cake pan...

Funny that 70 x 7 wasn't in the book of Numbers..

okay...I'll go back and hide in my corner....

[miz3]

Your hilarious, rudywoofs!

Thanks I needed that!

[miz3]

I have seen many children be able to understand it. In fact, I learned it and understood when I was in the second grade. My children learned it when they were young.

Anyone can learn that in prophecy a "day" is equal to a literal year. That really is not all that complex, and yes, it is most definitely biblical. We're sorry that you can't see it. You probably saw it at one time but have obviously learned to reject it.

You must know some "interesting children".

I am sure these "children" you speak of could follow all the posts Lysimachus wrote and be conversant in them and all their calculations, etc.?

After all I am sure this is sooooooo simple that Lysimachus just dashed this off in an hour or two of light reading one evening!

You are right about one thing it is not complex to see that Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6 do not have a blanket, all pervasive, Biblical Principle that a day equals a year in "prophetic time".

The context of Daniel and Revelation also do not lead one to automatically think in "long periods of time". If such were the clear and unambiguous fact then "everybody" would see it and use it. That is simply not the case!

You cannot use "context" or "implied" in the passages of Daniel and Revelation to make the "year/day". Face it, it is just not there!