70 x 7

[miz3]

Quote:

"But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

Daniel

12:4.

When these words were written the Grecian Kingdom had not come yet. When the Grecian Kingdom of the Daniel two image came on the scene there was indeed an EXPLOSION OF KNOWLEDGE AND THERE WAS INCREASED MOVEMENT ESPECIALLY UNDER THE ROMAN EMPIRE!

Literally the World of Daniel was turned upside down by the Grecian and Roman Kingdoms. The Hellenistic explosion is well known in Western History! Then came the Romans and they spread not only Hellenistic concepts and culture but they spread Roman culture all over the Middle East, Mediterranean, and even on up into what is now Europe!

The impact of the Grecian and Roman Kingdoms was cataclysmic in comparison to what had been in Daniel's day!

Even before 1844, there have been other explosions in movement and knowledge. The Great Age of Exploration with the explorers that literally went round the World. The explosion of knowledge was again profound (1500's, 1600's, 1700's) long before 1844! Long before the Twentieth and Twenty-first Centuries!

Thus the rise in knowledge and the movements of humans has happened many times throughout history after Daniel, not just in the days following 1844!

Thus, you cannot use that text and that phrase to say Daniel was talking only about 1844 and onward!

[Lysimachus]

You must know some "interesting children".

I am sure these "children" you speak of could follow all the posts Lysimachus wrote and be conversant in them and all their calculations, etc.?

After all I am sure this is sooooooo simple that Lysimachus just dashed this off in an hour or two of light reading one evening!

You are right about one thing it is not complex to see that Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6 do not have a blanket, all pervasive, Biblical Principle that a day equals a year in "prophetic time".

The context of Daniel and Revelation also do not lead one to automatically think in "long periods of time". If such were the clear and unambiguous fact then "everybody" would see it and use it. That is simply not the case!

You cannot use "context" or "implied" in the passages of Daniel and Revelation to make the "year/day". Face it, it is just not there!

[ClubV12]

I wonder how those who reject Ellen Whites writings as personal opinion treat the statements like, "I saw.." or "I was told..". Such statements are either inspired, or not, on these there is no middle ground.

As it concerns William Miller, reporting on a vision she states:

"Preachers and people have looked upon the book of Revelation as mysterious and of less importance than other portions of the Sacred Scriptures. But I saw that this book is indeed a revelation given for the especial benefit of those who should live in the last days, to guide them in ascertaining their true position and their duty. God directed the mind of William Miller to the prophecies and gave him great light upon the book of Revelation." {EW 231.1}

White, E. G. (1882; 2002). Early Writings of Ellen G. White; Early Writings (231). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

This whole section talks about Daniel, John the Revelator and William Miller as divine instruments of God. This section is clearly "inspired" writing. To reject it, is to reject the messenger herself.

[Truth Files]

"To reject it, is to reject the messenger herself"

Good idea to do this .... she was a false prophet and the list if her divinations is a long one

I could post them, but I will not .... those with an interest can find them on the Internet

[ClubV12]

The internet is filled with with all kinds of views and interpretations and folks calling out, "Here, I have the truth". Depending solely on themselves on declaring we can understand the truth for ourselves and have no need of anyone save the Holy Spirit.

The Lord does not lead them, the Lord does not work in that manner. In the counsel of many you will find the truth. Who are those with whom you counsel with Truth Files? Your just another lonely voice relying entirely upon yourself and ignoring the counsel of many, the brethren. Those who separate themselves for their brethren have no anchor. Even the Lords messenger, Ellen White, was careful to consider the counsel of the brethren. Urging them to draw closer together, to search for themselves the word of God. As she herself did, to gather together to compare scripture to scripture and seek the counsel of the Lord Himself.

Nothing new here, the internet if filled with men who have removed themselves from the counsel of many and loudly proclaim, "Here, I have the truth".

[Lysimachus]

I wonder how those who reject Ellen Whites writings as personal opinion treat the statements like, "I saw.." or "I was told..". Such statements are either inspired, or not, on these there is no middle ground.

As it concerns William Miller, reporting on a vision she states:

"Preachers and people have looked upon the book of Revelation as mysterious and of less importance than other portions of the Sacred Scriptures. But I saw that this book is indeed a revelation given for the especial benefit of those who should live in the last days, to guide them in ascertaining their true position and their duty. God directed the mind of William Miller to the prophecies and gave him great light upon the book of Revelation." {EW 231.1}

White, E. G. (1882; 2002). Early Writings of Ellen G. White; Early Writings (231). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

This whole section talks about Daniel, John the Revelator and William Miller as divine instruments of God. This section is clearly "inspired" writing. To reject it, is to reject the messenger herself.

Very well stated ClubV12. Oh how I wish I could quote Ellen White more when addressing and speaking to non-Adventists. In fact, I do many times, because the words she writes speaks for themselves, and utters rebuke to their unbelieving character.

Without question, she was a true Prophet of God. Regardless of what Truth Files, miz3, or the entire Protestant/Fundy/Dispensational/Antinomian world wishes to consider her. Had they lived in the days of Paul, they would have rejected Paul and found occasion against him. Had they lived in the days of Jeremiah, they would have accused him of being an upstart and trouble-maker.

Prophets are NEVER popular in their own day.

Like Ellen White perspicaciously stated:

"Those who refuse to be hewed by the prophets and fail to purify their souls in obeying the whole truth, and who are willing to believe that their condition is far better than it really is, will come up to the time of the falling of the plagues, and then see that they needed to be hewed and squared for the building." (Early Writings, p. 71)

Like the words of Hosea says:

"Therefore have I hewed [them] by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth." (Hosea 6:5)

"Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he." (Proverbs 29:18)

Have you noticed a lot of unhappy people in here? I wonder why.

"Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper." (2 Chron 20:20)

Because Ellen White steps on their sins, they don't like her. While they will deny that this is the reason, and find all sorts of occasions here and there to show that she "contradicted" herself and the Bible, truly deep down inside their hearts, that is the CRUX of the matter. But they just don't want to admit it.

The kinds of tactics that the false, Antinomian Protestant world employs on Ellen White is the of the VERY same nature and character as the tactics employed by atheists on the Bible. You can go on the web and find SCORES and SCORES of "apparent contradicts" littered all throughout the Sacred Writings that the atheists use all the time, and in fact, they go so far as making the Bible out to look ridiculous by quoting texts out of context. In fact, you can line up the criticisms posed by the critics against Ellen White SIDE BY SIDE with those of the atheists against the Bible, and there is virtually NO DIFFERENCE. But no matter what you say, they will continue on their obstinate course.

The Protestant (mostly Dispensational) world refuses to acknowledge these penetrating, and cutting facts.

Thankfully, we are able to prove ALL our doctrines solely on the Word of God without the use of Ellen White. So I will continue to support doctrines on the Bible, but I will not hold back quoting them some earth-shaking statements that she has made to see if maybe, just MAYBE they will help to arouse them out of their death stupor.

[John317]

... I have seen how, where, when etc. you use Ellen White and I believe that you use her like you use Scripture. You use her to prove almost all your points. If you use Ellen White to prove Truth then in my view that is using Ellen White as Scripture!

You misunderstand my reason for quoting Ellen White.

I only quote Ellen White for the purpose of showing what she believed. It's people's choice whether to accept what she wrote.

For example, when I quote Ellen White in regard to the Godhead (or on any other topic), I am only giving evidence of what she wrote. It's important for Seventh-day Adventists to understand what she taught.

I don't quote her to non-SDAs unless they ask about her.

This is different from my reason for quoting Scripture. I quote Scripture to prove truth; I quote Ellen White to show what she taught. Those are two different things.

[miz3]

Quote:

IV. Dealing With a "Year-Day" Quibbler

Miller was also the constant object of criticism, slander, scoffing, and abuse. At times he was so aroused by the unfairness of the attack that he became extremely severe in his retorts. He was by nature a past master at irony and sarcasm, and occasionally gave expression to an impatience he afterward deeply regretted. Few have been called upon to bear the amount reproach that fell to his lot, though on most occasions he was severe without being discourteous. Aside from straight exposition, here is an example in forthright dealing with the quibble that the 2300 prophetic days of Daniel 8:14 merely mean literal days:

"'But' says the critic, 'it is "evenings-mornings."'

"No matter: all men seem to understand it days; for it is so translated in every language with which we are acquainted at the present day. Therefore, this can never be made plainer, if this compound Hebrew word should be criticized upon until the judgment shall set. I am sick of this continual harping upon words. Our learned critics are worse on the waters of truth than a school of sharks on the fishing-banks of the north, and they have made more infidels in our world than all the heathen mythology in existence. What word in revelation has not been turned, twisted, racked, wrested, distorted, demolished, and annihilated by these voracious harpies in human shape, until the public have become so bewildered they know not what to believe? 'They have fouled the waters with their feet.' I have always noticed where they tread the religious spirit is at a low ebb; it becomes cold, formal, and doubtful, at least. It is the mind of the Spirit we want, and God's word then becomes spirit and life unto us." (Bliss, Memoirs, p. 207)

Miller then proceeds to expound its meaning, on the year-day principle.

"The words "evenings-mornings" convey to our mind the idea of days; thus this vision is 2300 days long,' says the reader. "es. But how can all this be?' says the inquiring mind. 'Can three kingdoms rise up and become great; from a small people become a strong nation; conquer all the nations of the earth, and then, in its turn, be subdued and conquered by a kingdom still more fortunate; and so on through three successive kingdoms, and do this in little over six years? Impossible.'

"But God has said it, and I must believe. Now the only difficulty is in time.'

"How can this be?'

"Very well,' says the dear child of God; 'I remember me: God says I must "dig for the truth as for hid treasure." I will go to work, and, while I am digging, I will live by begging. Father in heaven, I believe it is thy word; but I do not understand it; show me thy truth.'

"I had rather have one humble prayer of this kind, with an English Bible in my hand, than all the Hebrew, Greek, and Latin Bro. S. ever knew.

"The child then takes the word day, and compares spiritual things with spiritual, to find what his heavenly Father means by days in a figurative sense. The first text he lights upon is in Num. 14:34, 'each day for a year.'

"'May this not be it?' says the child.

"He takes hold of it by faith, carries it home, lays it up in his cell of sweets, richer than a lord, and again goes forth in search of more. He now lights upon Eze. 4:6: 'I have appointed thee each day for a year.' He is now rich in very deed—two jewels in one cell. He does not stop to criticize, like a Stuart, and query, and reason himself out of common sense and reason too; but, Abraham-like, he believes, and lays up his treasure at home.

" 'I see,' says the child, 'this use of days was so ordained by my Father in two cases; and two witnesses are enough. But I am not certain that I have a right to use these jewels in this place. I will go and beg, and dig again.'

"In this excursion he lights on Daniel 9:23-27: 'Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people.'

" 'Seventy weeks of what?' says the critic.

" 'I do not care a fig,' says the believing child, 'whether you call it days or years: I know how long it was in fulfilling.'

" 'How long?'

" 'Exactly four hundred and ninety years: from the decree given in the seventh year of Artaxerxes, four hundred and fifty-seven years before Christ, unto his death, thirty-three years after the birth of Christ, making exactly four hundred and ninety years, or seventy sevens of years of the vision.'"

(Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 4, pp. 689-691)

This is not proof that you are correct. In fact it shows the very opposite.

If you notice the so-called "spiritual child" LIFTS THE PHRASE "each day for a year" OUT OF CONTEXT!

You cannot just lift phrases here and there in the Bible out of their context and then use in ways that please you. This such a week article that it is almost funny!

It also demonstrates how vapid and weak your argument is!

Secondly, your comments about my "spiritual condition" are indeed a personal attack. John317 said we are not use personal attacks.

Third you are not GOD so it is impossible for you to know my spiritual condition! This is arrogance of the Pharisees that you are displaying.

It is also an intimidation tactic used by those who are frustrated when they are losing the issue! You have no cogent ammunition so you attack my Spirituality!

These are bullying tactics!

[Lysimachus]

This is not proof that you are correct. In fact it shows the very opposite.

[miz3]

You misunderstand my reason for quoting Ellen White.

I only quote Ellen White for the purpose of showing what she believed. It's people's choice whether to accept what she wrote.

For example, when I quote Ellen White in regard to the Godhead (or on any other topic), I am only giving evidence of what she wrote. It's important for Seventh-day Adventists to understand what she taught.

I don't quote her to non-SDAs unless they ask about her.

This is different from my reason for quoting Scripture. I quote Scripture to prove truth; I quote Ellen White to show what she taught. Those are two different things.

OK!

I cannot judge your motives. That is not for me to do.

However, it has indeed "appeared to me" that you have used Ellen White as Scripture!

I think it best to not argue about this (your motive for using Ellen White) because such an argument is not Biblical and second, there is no way to prove one way or the other who would be correct. Only you and God know the Truth.

So for me this issue is closed! (unless provoked to have to respond rather than remain silent)!

[John317]

Look at you. I was right! You use elitist words like "Hermeneutical". That is not people talk. That is elitist talk!

Hermeneutical, he! he! Why don't you like Christ talk the common language of the people?

If you go to libraries or the Internet and read the journals of theology or if you take college courses in the Bible, you will see people using the word "hermeneutical." It's a perfectly good and useful word referring to principles of interpretation.

It isn't necessary to only use words that are commonly spoken on the street. If that were the case, we also wouldn't use words such as "justification," "sanctification," or "propitiation," etc.

Instead of merely attacking the use of the word "hermeneutical," try discussing the meaning of the writer's statements. Is what he says true? If not, why isn't it?

[John317]

I cannot judge your motives. That is not for me to do.

However, it has indeed "appeared to me" that you have used Ellen White as Scripture!

This is better. Thank you. :-)

How about if we don't judge each other's motives and if we assume that everyone we're writing to is being sincere and honest? If we don't do that, it really makes is almost impossible to have reasoning and worth-while exchanges with others. :-)

[John317]

... To reject it, is to reject the messenger herself.

True, but more importantly, it is a rejection of the God who gave Her the messages.

Quote:

I saw the state of some who stood on present truth, but disregarded the visions--the way God had chosen to teach in some cases, those who erred from Bible truth. I saw that in striking against the visions they did not strike against the worm--the feeble instrument that God spake through--but against the Holy Ghost. I saw it was a small thing to speak against the instrument, but it was dangerous to slight the words of God. I saw if they were in error and God chose to show them their errors through visions, and they disregarded the teachings of God through visions, they would be left to take their own way, and run in the way of error, and think they were right, until they would find it out too late. Then in the time of trouble I heard them cry to God in agony, "Why didst Thou not show us our wrong, that we might have got right and been ready for this time?" Then an angel pointed to them and said, "My Father taught, but you would not be taught. He spoke through visions, but you disregarded His voice, and He gave you up to your own ways, to be filled with your own doings."--Broadside, To Those Who Are Receiving the Seal of the Living God, Jan. 31, 1849. {1SM 40, 41}

It does not become anyone to drop a word of doubt here and there that shall work like poison in other minds, shaking their confidence in the messages which God has given, which have aided in laying the foundation of this work, and have attended it to the present day, in reproofs, warnings, corrections, and encouragements. To all who have stood in the way of the Testimonies, I would say, God has given a message to His people, and His voice will be heard, whether you hear or forbear. Your opposition has not injured me; but you must give an account to the God of heaven, who has sent these warnings and instructions to keep His people in the right way. You will have to answer to Him for your blindness, for being a stumbling block in the way of sinners. {1SM 43.1}

Early in my youth I was asked several times, Are you a prophet? I have ever responded, I am the Lord's messenger. I know that many have called me a prophet, but I have made no claim to this title. My Saviour declared me to be His messenger. "Your work," He instructed me, "is to bear My word. Strange things will arise, and in your youth I set you apart to bear the message to the erring ones, to carry the word before unbelievers, and with pen and voice to reprove from the Word actions that are not right. Exhort from the Word. I will make My Word open to you. It shall not be as a strange language. In the true eloquence of simplicity, with voice and pen, the messages that I give shall be heard from one who has never learned in the schools. My Spirit and My power shall be with you. {1SM 32.2}

"Be not afraid of man, for My shield shall protect you. It is not you that speaketh: it is the Lord that giveth the messages of warning and reproof. Never deviate from the truth under any circumstances. Give the light I shall give you. The messages for these last days shall be written in books, and shall stand immortalized, to testify against those who have once rejoiced in the light, but who have been led to give it up because of the seductive influences of evil." {1SM 32.3}

Why have I not claimed to be a prophet?--Because in these days many who boldly claim that they are prophets are a reproach to the cause of Christ; and because my work includes much more than the word "prophet" signifies. {1SM 32.4}

When this work was first given me, I begged the Lord to lay the burden on someone else. The work was so large and broad and deep that I feared I could not do it. But by

33

His Holy Spirit the Lord has enabled me to perform the work which He gave me to do. {1SM 32.5}

A Work of Many Features

God has made plain to me the various ways in which He would use me to carry forward a special work. Visions have been given me, with the promise, "If you deliver the messages faithfully and endure to the end, you shall eat of the fruit of the tree of life, and drink of the water of the river of life." {1SM 33.1}

[John317]

... she was a false prophet and the list if her divinations is a long one

Let every man and woman make up his/her own mind. This applies to the Bible as well as to the prophetic ministry of Ellen White. We each have to decide for ourselves.

[John317]

The impact of the Grecian and Roman Kingdoms was cataclysmic in comparison to what had been in Daniel's day!

But the point is that people living in those ancient times didn't live much differently from the way they lived clear up to the 18th century. That all changed dramatically in the 19th and 20th centuries.

Have you seen a list of the new inventions and new ways of travel starting in the middle 1800s and continuing into the 21st centuries?

People were still walking or riding horses until the 19th century. Then came the train, then the car, and soon afterwards the plane and the rocket.

Same with knowledge. They were using the pen until the 20th century, then we went to the computer.

Wars in the 18th century were fought pretty much the same as they had always been fought, but that changed in the 19th and 20th centuries.

The same goes for practically everything.

So there is really no comparison between the changes that occurred in the days of Greece and Rome and the changes that occurred in the last 100 years or so. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

[Guest]

And that's a fact...!

[John317]

[miz3]

The Grecian and Roman Empires in fact did bring a marked increase!

The Bible does not say by what "magnitude"!

The Bible just states that there would be greater movement and greater knowledge. The Bible did not say by what "magnitude" these would increase!

You are trying to make it fit by saying some time in the future was of greater magnitude. If we are basing things on magnitude the changes in the last 30 years is so much greater in magnitude than even the changes of the mid 19th century.

On that basis maybe then the time periods in Daniel are pointing to the last 30 years and not to the mid 19th century! They didn't have apace travel in the 19th century that is a huge leap in movement that out strips the movement of the 19th century! The micro chip has increased knowledge to a greater magnitude than the increase in knowledge in the 19th century. Magnitude is a weak argument.

If you use "magnitude" there is no end to when! The longer into the future we go the greater the magnitude increases!

Using "magnitude" we would actually have to wait for a time period in which human increase in knowledge would peak and could go no further! That then would be the generation!

Sorry I don't think picking the 19th century is what Daniel is talking about!

[miz3]

But the point is that people living in those ancient times didn't live much differently from the way they lived clear up to the 18th century. That all changed dramatically in the 19th and 20th centuries.

That depends on how you define differently. If you define differently by technology and inventions then maybe you have a point. However, the Bible does not say "increase in technology and inventions".

The Bible says "increase in 'movement' and knowledge". The Bible does not determine "magnitude".

The fact remains compared to Daniel's day the movement of travel, including the scope of conquest increased dramatically. Again, the increase in knowledge and the movement of that knowledge increase dramatically as well. Such things indeed changed the way people lived, saw the world, and did their business.

As such you can not just shrug it off as irrelevant and pick your own date based on faulty Bible study! (no year/day principle).

The Scope of the Book of Daniel is restricted by Daniel chapter two. That means the four kingdoms.

These kingdoms would be Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome! Thus any prophetic utterances have to be within the boundaries of Babylon and the Roman Empire!

Anything else wonders outside the Biblical Parameters set down by God in the Book of Daniel.

Don't talk about the "Stone not cut out by human hands" (Kingdom of God) being the "Second Coming"! Please don't go there!

[Lysimachus]

That depends on how you define differently. If you define differently by technology and inventions then maybe you have a point. However, the Bible does not say "increase in technology and inventions".

The Bible says "increase in 'movement' and knowledge". The Bible does not determine "magnitude".

The fact remains compared to Daniel's day the movement of travel, including the scope of conquest increased dramatically. Again, the increase in knowledge and the movement of that knowledge increase dramatically as well. Such things indeed changed the way people lived, saw the world, and did their business.

As such you can not just shrug it off as irrelevant and pick your own date based on faulty Bible study! (no year/day principle).

The Scope of the Book of Daniel is restricted by Daniel chapter two. That means the four kingdoms.

These kingdoms would be Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome! Thus any prophetic utterances have to be within the boundaries of Babylon and the Roman Empire!

Anything else wonders outside the Biblical Parameters set down by God in the Book of Daniel.

Don't talk about the "Stone not cut out by human hands" (Kingdom of God) being the "Second Coming"! Please don't go there!

Miz3, can we please stay on topic? No disrespect, but you are famous for destroying and spoiling many wonderful discussions by making them branch off topic. I was really enjoying the 70 weeks topic, but you are always getting "hung up" on little side-issues here and there that seem to fester inside of you and eat you up. I really wish you would quit this.

And in case you forgot, we are still living in the period of the Roman Empire. Just its second phase.

[ClubV12]

Wow, I'm sorry, but I gotta laugh at this reasoning miz3.

There is no way you can present a reasonable argument justifying an "increase in knowledge" in Daniels time and even begin to compare that to the "increase in knowledge" in this day and age.

Look, the average, everday, reasonable man on the street would call such a comparison "nuts", and then laugh, really, I mean, I did. :)

[miz3]

Miz3, can we please stay on topic? No disrespect, but you are famous for destroying and spoiling many wonderful discussions by making them branch off topic. I was really enjoying the 70 weeks topic, but you are always getting "hung up" on little side-issues here and there that seem to fester inside of you and eat you up. I really wish you would quit this.

And in case you forgot, we are still living in the period of the Roman Empire. Just its second phase.

I am on topic!

Your 70weeks theory falls apart because there is no year/day principle! End of theory!

Second you people were the one's who brought up Daniel 12:4 with the "increase in movement and knowledge". I only responded to what you guys brought up.

Third you just want to spout your unBiblical theory without any questioning from anyone about your fatal flaws. This is why you are crying. You don't want a discussion you seem to want a pat on the back!

[John317]

Yes, I brought up that point, but then I was only responding to another poster. So I plead guilty of taking us a bit off topic. As the moderator, I don't mind if people get off the topic for a little while, as long as we get back on fairly soon.

[miz3]

Thank you John317.

[John317]