70 x 7

[hch]

Like I said you lose on the year/day hoax!

Since reading through this thread from page 1 to the present, I am convinced that no amount of argument will prevail: Truth is in the mind of the beholder.

There is a movement online that teaches "prophecy fulfilled" the historicist view taken to extreme. This appears to be akin to the view that some espouse in this discussion. Summarized, they clearly believe that all Bible prophecy was fulfilled at the time of Christ's First Advent or immediately thereafter.

It is good to study to show ourselves approved of God. And if the Lord sends truth that an individual chooses not to consider, it is ultimately a matter that is between that soul and God.

[Aussiemike]

How can you believe the jesuit doctrine that the year/ day principle is a hoax when your own beliefs say that the 70 weeks (490 days ) are 490 year? Thats a day for a year isnt it?

The hebrew in that verse does not contain the word years. It literally says '70 weeks' it does not say weeks of years.

[Lysimachus]

I used to believe that the "Daily" was Paganism, and so did my father. I have given it up, and so has he. That was ever since I read Heidi Heiks masterpiece work that completely demolishing all our "sound" arguments entitled The "Daily" Source Book. Nothing under the heavens comes close to the irrefutable research gone into the subject of the Daily.

I used to believe that the 1260, 1290 and 1335 will be future. And so did my father.

Within recent months, I have been forced to give up the "dogmatic" notion that Ellen White's statements concerning "repetition of prophecy" necessarily means a repetition of the "time-lines", rather, a repetition of the elements that happened IN those past time lines. It is understanding the nature of that repetition that is vital, not that the prophecy itself repeats, but the elements of the prophecy repeat. I still believe it is possible that the 1260, 1290, and 1335 may repeat, but if they do repeat, I doubt we'll know when they started until the day of the Second Advent, and we can look back in retrospect.

Just like the Protestants and Pioneers were not able to see the starting date of the 1260 and 1290 and 1335 until AFTER the end-dates transpired, so likewise God's people will not see the beginning dates of these numbers until the Second Coming if they happen to repeat.

It was after reading these books from Heidi Heiks, that I have been forced, based on Biblical and historical grounds, to give up a lot of my dogmatic positions, and stand firm on the historical positions.

I recommend every serious Adventist student to read these books: 508, 538, 1798/1843, and the "Daily" Source Books.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: hch

How can you believe the jesuit doctrine that the year/ day principle is a hoax when your own beliefs say that the 70 weeks (490 days ) are 490 year? Thats a day for a year isnt it?

The hebrew in that verse does not contain the word years. It literally says '70 weeks' it does not say weeks of years.

It never seems to occur to miz3 that every time he rejects the DIVINE day-for-year principle, he is cozing up to Jesuit Cardinals Francisco Ribera and Robert Bellarmine, and joining hands with them against the reformation.

miz3 is joining hands with Counter-Reformation theology.

[miz3]

Daniel chapter two sets the parameters for the beginning and ending of all the prophetic material contained in the Book of Daniel!

That means none of the events predicted therein could ever cover thousands of years.

Second there is no time period mentioned in the Book of Daniel that spans thousands of years. Every time period is mentioned in days, weeks, and times (always short number of years).

Everything begins with the Babylonian Empire and ends with the Roman Empire! That's it!

NO THOUSANDS OF YEARS! NO PREDICTIONS OF THE SDA CHURCH! NO INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT! NO SDA SANCTUARY DOCTRINE!

Why? For all the reasons stated above and the key fact that there is no Biblical year/day principle!

[miz3]

In Daniel 7:11 "I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame."

The burning flame cited here is the glory of Christ's Advent that destroys the wicked at His coming.

Daniel chapter seven is not referring to the Second Coming! In fact it refers to the Messiah (Jesus Christ) and the Crucifixion! That's is why Christ could boast that He has overcome the World! NOT THOUSANDS OF YEARS LATER, BUT RIGHT AT THE CRUCIFIXION AND THE RESURRECTION!

The center of all human history is the Cross of Jesus Christ and His Resurrection! The Cross and the Resurrection are the Victory over sin, not the Second Coming! Christ has already given the Kingdom of Heaven to the Saints. That Victory is why Paul says we share in that Victory NOW over the sin that has kept us in slavery!

This is a Spiritual issue not a "historical issue"! Daniel like the rest of the Bible is about Spiritual Victory (as opposed to Adam's defeat) not "historical victory".

This is why you and SDA are wrong and will continue to be wrong. The Jews made the same mistake about "prophecy??????" in their day! The Jews are still looking for their "historical messiah"! They will never find it! You are repeating their blunder!

[Lysimachus]

1. No evidence that Daniel two extends to Christ's Second Coming!

[miz3]

If this were a true conclusion, that might seem like the end of the matter.

But as I read Revelation 10, the little book of Daniel is opened and John hears the command to prophesy again. Since the book of Daniel is the one that was prophesying as it is opened within the context, when it is to prophecy again, it continues to prophesy until Christ stands for His people the final time (see Daniel 12:1)

Revelation is not referring to the Book of Daniel. Daniel is nowhere mentioned in the Book of Revelation.

This is just pure made up babble on your part!

[Lysimachus]

I'm convinced miz3 that the reason why you are so desparate to respond to everyone's posts against you is because your conscience is bothering you. You are doing everything in your power to try and "justify" not believing in the foundations of our Adventist messages, so therefore, in order to make yourself feel better, you have to go out of your way to try and stretch away and explain away all the prophecies.

One day, if you do not change, I guarantee that you will look back and wail, and be sorry that you wasted so much of your life trying to destroy the foundations laid by God. Oh how you will wail.

[ClubV12]

I don't agree that today the men leading this organization are necessarily any different, or of less caliber/character than the men who founded this organization.

There was plenty of division and arguing back in the day as well!

Some bright lights went out then as they do today. I was talking to a lifetime SDA the other day and mentioned A.T. Jones. My friend mentioned how he won't read any of Jones writings because the man left the church. I think thats a sad position, Jones was certainly led of God during a large part of his ministry. The same could be said for a lot of "bright lights" which went out in time.

I also mentioned, rather excitedly, that I was reading the Testimonies and getting such a blessing out of them. Venturing further, I mentioned recreation. He sighed, and asked what "don't do" I had recently come across. "Don't do"? Ah, I got it. Like many SDA's I understand more about the hammer affect of the Testimonies. What I found, as it concerns recreation was the NEED for it! Get out of the office, get some fresh air and sunshine, ride a horse, do some light exercise, take the family on a picnic. I see terrific balance in the Testimonies, I see the positive, not the negative. I see Ellen White as very balanced in her own life and example.

THAT is what we are missing, back in the day and in this modern time. People tend to stake out a position on one side or the other of an issue and are immovable.

Now as it concerns the "daily", Sister White never took a position on it, other than to declare the 2,300 year aspect solid as a rock. But offered no counsel on the meaning of the "daily" itself. And it is NOT to be a point of contention among us. IF that starts to happen, let it go, it's not that important. It can drive us apart rather than draw us together.

Having said that,,, I think the "daily" is the Sabbath! Daily, being a referrence to a weekly event.

Ride a horse, she says. So I jumped on my motorcycle and went for a nice ride in the country, got some fresh air and sunshine!

[Truth Files]

"Revelation is not referring to the Book of Daniel. Daniel is nowhere mentioned in the Book of Revelation.

This is just pure made up babble on your part!"

>Not true .... Daniel's visions are totally congruent, integrated, and inseparable .... the Lord's further revealtion is repetitive and a continuation of Daniel's visions, and of the other prophets of the O.T. .... the Bible is the cohesive integrated Word of the Lord who is the Author of all prophecy

[Lysimachus]

Now as it concerns the "daily", Sister White never took a position on it, other than to declare the 2,300 year aspect solid as a rock. But offered no counsel on the meaning of the "daily" itself. And it is NOT to be a point of contention among us. IF that starts to happen, let it go, it's not that important. It can drive us apart rather than draw us together.

Having said that,,, I think the "daily" is the Sabbath! Daily, being a referrence to a weekly event.

Ride a horse, she says. So I jumped on my motorcycle and went for a nice ride in the country, got some fresh air and sunshine!

Seriously, you gotta get that book by Heidi Heiks-- The "Daily" Source Book. It will blow you away! Guaranteed.

That book will not just educate you on the daily, but will help you understand the 2300 days like never before, and how to prove the beginning and ending dates, as well as understand it in relation to Christ's High Priestly ministry. There is no way I can explain just how good the book is until you actually read it. I promise you it will be well worth your time! :)

[miz3]

Daniel 2:31-15 (NASB) states

31 “You, O king, were looking and behold, there was a single great statue; that statue, which was large and of extraordinary splendor, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was awesome. 32 The head of that statue was made of fine gold, its breast and its arms of silver, its belly and its thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. 34 You continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

How are you explaining that Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome were crushed all at the same time at Christ's first Advent?

As I explained to you a couple of posts ago, this is not about "historical anything"! It is about Spiritual Everything! This is why Christ could say that He has "overcome the world" that "He has overcome death". Christ told Pilot that His Kingdom was not of this world! That is because Jesus Christ's Kingdom is a Spiritual Kingdom not a "historical kingdom"!

Christ's Victory was a Spiritual Victory not a puny "historical victory". "historical victories" are puny and never ever conclusive which is why kingdom after kingdom comes and goes. God has already established His Kingdom throughout history but that establishment is Spiritual not "physical and/or historical". The Trophies of Christ's Victory include Righteous Abel all the way down to today's Spiritual Giants!

This is how not only the four nations of Daniel are crushed but the whole world is crushed by Christ's Cross and Resurrection!

WOW! What a Victory it is!

Why do you refuse to celebrate? We SDA should be shouting everywhere about Christ's Victory so that the Whole World can celebrate! This is the Gospel! The gospel you are preaching is just human babble! You act like we are still in jail when in actuality Christ has set us Free!

Paul agrees with me! Why do you disagree with Paul? More important, why do you disagree with Jesus Christ?

[miz3]

Since reading through this thread from page 1 to the present, I am convinced that no amount of argument will prevail: Truth is in the mind of the beholder.

There is a movement online that teaches "prophecy fulfilled" the historicist view taken to extreme. This appears to be akin to the view that some espouse in this discussion. Summarized, they clearly believe that all Bible prophecy was fulfilled at the time of Christ's First Advent or immediately thereafter.

It is good to study to show ourselves approved of God. And if the Lord sends truth that an individual chooses not to consider, it is ultimately a matter that is between that soul and God.

Your very words condemn you! You admit that you are a "historicist". The Bible is not a history book open then to historical interpretation. The Bible is a Spiritual Book open only to Spiritual Interpretation.

You are also wrong, "truth is not in the mind of the beholder"! Truth is in the Mind of God! Truth is revealed only through the Holy Spirit to your spirit as stated in 1Corinthians chapter two verses six to sixteen! However the human spirit must be ready to receive God's Spiritual Message in order to get it right!

[Lysimachus]

Your very words condemn you! You admit that you are a "historicist". The Bible is not a history book open then to historical interpretation. The Bible is a Spiritual Book open only to Spiritual Interpretation.

"And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe." (John 14:29)

[miz3]

How can you believe the jesuit doctrine that the year/ day principle is a hoax when your own beliefs say that the 70 weeks (490 days ) are 490 year? Thats a day for a year isnt it?

The hebrew in that verse does not contain the word years. It literally says '70 weeks' it does not say weeks of years.

"Guilt by association" is a common attack when you have no real truth to impart! Are the Jesuits "ALWAYS WRONG"? Could it be that maybe in this particular case they could be correct or is your unreasonable hatred of the RCC so great that you have lost all reason?

Daniel says "70 weeks (490 days), Daniel does NOT SAY "years"! Even your Hebrew states that is actual "weeks" NOT "years"! The word "years" has nothing to do with what Daniel is saying!

Sorry aussiemike!

[miz3]

I used to believe that the "Daily" was Paganism, and so did my father. I have given it up, and so has he. That was ever since I read Heidi Heiks masterpiece work that completely demolishing all our "sound" arguments entitled The "Daily" Source Book. Nothing under the heavens comes close to the irrefutable research gone into the subject of the Daily.

I used to believe that the 1260, 1290 and 1335 will be future. And so did my father.

Within recent months, I have been forced to give up the "dogmatic" notion that Ellen White's statements concerning "repetition of prophecy" necessarily means a repetition of the "time-lines", rather, a repetition of the elements that happened IN those past time lines. It is understanding the nature of that repetition that is vital, not that the prophecy itself repeats, but the elements of the prophecy repeat. I still believe it is possible that the 1260, 1290, and 1335 may repeat, but if they do repeat, I doubt we'll know when they started until the day of the Second Advent, and we can look back in retrospect.

Just like the Protestants and Pioneers were not able to see the starting date of the 1260 and 1290 and 1335 until AFTER the end-dates transpired, so likewise God's people will not see the beginning dates of these numbers until the Second Coming if they happen to repeat.

It was after reading these books from Heidi Heiks, that I have been forced, based on Biblical and historical grounds, to give up a lot of my dogmatic positions, and stand firm on the historical positions.

I recommend every serious Adventist student to read these books: 508, 538, 1798/1843, and the "Daily" Source Books.

This post only goes to demonstrate the various and complex hocus pocus ways Daniel could be interpreted when using NONSPIRITUAL METHODS!

The paths of destruction are varied and lead only to destruction!

[Lysimachus]

"Guilt by association" is a common attack when you have no real truth to impart! Are the Jesuits "ALWAYS WRONG"? Could it be that maybe in this particular case they could be correct or is your unreasonable hatred of the RCC so great that you have lost all reason?

[Lysimachus]

This post only goes to demonstrate the various and complex hocus pocus ways Daniel could be interpreted when using NONSPIRITUAL METHODS!

The paths of destruction are varied and lead only to destruction!

I believe the Bible is a literal book that is to be interpreted literally. Not literalistically. Neither is it to be interpreted allegorically.

To interpret it literally is to interpret it spiritually. We take time periods seriously. We do not worship a God who cannot give us definite times, nor predict the future. We worship a God that knows the end from the beginning, and we can put our finger on exact historical events so that we might look back in retrospect, see their fulfillment, and then we can believe.

[ClubV12]

There are many good books to read, I'll get around to it and add to my list those on the "daily".

But, I've come to the conclusion that first I need to finish the Testimonies. Which have inspired me to read and study more in my bible as the definitive source of truth. It will take a few years to catch up to you guys! But I can't think of a better foundation to begin with than the bible with the SOP as a guide book.

I'm trying to find that balance between using the SOP as a "short cut" to understanding the bible and lean more on the original source. As did the pioneers. Ellen White was remarkably quiet on most aspects of doctrine. It was left to the people to search the scriptures, counsel together, and establish each point along the way.

[Guest]

Amen Club! You can't go wrong with the Bible and the Testimonies.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

"Guilt by association" is a common attack when you have no real truth to impart! Are the Jesuits "ALWAYS WRONG"? Could it be that maybe in this particular case they could be correct or is your unreasonable hatred of the RCC so great that you have lost all reason?

If it is a doctrine that destroys the reformation, they are wrong. No doubt about it.

Originally Posted By: miz3

Daniel says "70 weeks (490 days), Daniel does NOT SAY "years"! Even your Hebrew states that is actual "weeks" NOT "years"! The word "years" has nothing to do with what Daniel is saying!

Sorry aussiemike!

So you are saying that the 70 weeks are 1.4 years in length? Please define to me the beginning and ending point of this prophecy, and what Messiah showed up 1.4 years later from what starting date.

The Reformation does not depend on the year/day junk! The Reformation stands on the Pauline Gospel of Faith! Thus, the Reformation does not stand in any way shape or form on your prophetic hocus pocus!

As to your 1.4 years I have not said anything at all. What I have said is that the Bible regarding Daniel nine does NOT say anything about 1844 and beyond.

That means Daniel speaks in straight language. It is for the reader to find what that straight language is saying. One thing we do know is that Daniel is NOT TALKING ABOUT THOUSANDS OF YEARS! Meaning Daniel's focus was on the Cross and Resurrection of Jesus Christ and NOT on the 1844 junk!

[Lysimachus]

The Reformation does not depend on the year/day junk! The Reformation stands on the Pauline Gospel of Faith! Thus, the Reformation does not stand in any way shape or form on your prophetic hocus pocus!

As to your 1.4 years I have not said anything at all. What I have said is that the Bible regarding Daniel nine does NOT say anything about 1844 and beyond.

That means Daniel speaks in straight language. It is for the reader to find what that straight language is saying. One thing we do know is that Daniel is NOT TALKING ABOUT THOUSANDS OF YEARS! Meaning Daniel's focus was on the Cross and Resurrection of Jesus Christ and NOT on the 1844 junk!

I'm not playing games here miz3. I said I want you to define for me the 70 weeks time period. I never mentioned anything about 1844. I am only referring to the 70 weeks here. ALONE. The 70 weeks were interpreted as 490 years by even Jesus Christ Himself, and the Apostles, and the Church Fathers, long before anyone knew anything about 1844.

I want you to explain to me where the start and end is of the 70 weeks.

[miz3]

I'm not playing games here miz3. I said I want you to define for me the 70 weeks time period. I never mentioned anything about 1844. I am only referring to the 70 weeks here. ALONE. The 70 weeks were interpreted as 490 years by even Jesus Christ Himself, and the Apostles, and the Church Fathers, long before anyone knew anything about 1844.

I want you to explain to me where the start and end is of the 70 weeks.

Regardless of what the True solution is one thing we do know is that the year/day junk does not apply because the year/day junk does not exist as a time principle!

So whatever your solution it must NOT USE THE YEAR/DAY JUNK!

[Lysimachus]

Regardless of what the True solution is one thing we do know is that the year/day junk does not apply because the year/day junk does not exist as a time principle!

So whatever your solution it must NOT USE THE YEAR/DAY JUNK!

So then tell me on what rule/hermenuetical basis are you able justify translating 70 weeks as 490 years? Last time I checked, a week is 7 days. I'm assuming at this point that you do not believe the 70 weeks was 1.4 years. I hope not anyway.