Was Christ Truly Tempted in all Points as Fallen Humanity?

[John317]

You seem to be confusing Jesus of Nazareth, who had a beginning, with the pre-incarnate Christ, who had NO beginning.

Originally Posted By: Gustav

WOW! I think I understand why you believe the way you do John....

...I'm glad you said what you just did.

...I'll be back - and I'll be bringing some help for you.

Are there ANY SDA Pastors here who would be willing to respond to what John317 just said?

Was the pre-incarnate Son of God a man before he was born as a human in Bethlehem?

If not, then Jesus the man had a beginning. He began with the conception within Mary's womb. He was God, yes, but He wasn't only God; He was also man. Such a being-- fully God and fully man-- had never existed before.

Did God die? No.

Did Jesus of Nazareth die? Yes.

Could God have ceased to exist? NO.

Could Jesus of Nazareth have ceased to exist if He had sinned? Certainly.

You're going to find that all SDA pastors believe this.

[Raphael]

This a further anatomy study of Christ's nature.

Christ’s unique twin nature of God & man were & will always be in constant harmony. Though in mortal human form capable of discomfort and death, He maintained a sinless state from birth till His rapture, staying in perfect harmony with His own divinity. Now there are ideas of real possibilities of failure to avoid a hoax impression, which disrupts the harmony between His two natures because His divine part cannot tolerate (even) possibilities of a failure. Fortunately so far, these two natures of Christ have and will remain in constant harmony but it has and remain so, not by chance but by certainty, which is an attribute from His divine side and not His human side, though they are intertwined in one singularity, with the divine part naturally superior and the human part naturally as a subject to the divine part, not the other way around.

[skyblue888]

In Jesus of Nazareth, the two natures, the human and the divine, were combined but His divinity was kept back the whole time, othwerwise he would have had an advantage over us. He was wholly dependent upon God. He lived as a man, not as God. As a man "He supplicated the throne of God till his humanity was charged with a heavenly current that should connect humanity with divinity." D.A.363.

"In him was found the perfect ideal. To reveal this ideal as the only standard for attainment; to show what every human being might become; what, through the indwelling of humanity by divinity, all who received Him would become--for this, Christ came to the world." E.G. White, Education,73,74.

[skyblue888]

Here is a very interesting commentary upon Col.2:9,10:

"In Christ dwelt the fullness of the Godhead bodily. (He supplicated the throne of God till His humanity was charged with a heavenly current that should connect humanity with divinity) This is why, although He was tempted in all points like as we are, He stood before the world, from His first entrance into it, untainted by corruption, though surrounded by it. Are we not also to become partakers of that fullness, and is it not thus, and thus only, that we can overcome as He overcame?" E.G. White, MS 16, 1896; 7 B.C.907. *parenthesis supplied

The Holy Spirit through the apostle Paul prayed that Christ might dwell in our hearts through faith that we may be filled with all the fullness of God. (Eph.3:14-19)

So this shows that he could have fallen under temptation if he had not supplicated the throne of God that his humanity might through faith be connected with the divinity of the Father by the Holy Spirit.

It is the same with us. We are to daily supplicate the throne of God by pleading the merits of Christ, appropriating His merits to ourselves by claiming them, and thus our humanity is to be connected with the divinity of Christ that we may be made "more than conquerors" (Rom.8:37) over all our inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil and that the character of Christ might be impressed upon us until the full corn shall be in the ear. (Mark 4:26-29) This is what Jesus has been waiting for. He cannot return until this is accomplished.

"Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own.. Were all who profess His name bearing fruit to His glory, how quickly the whole world would be sown with the seed of the Gospel. Quickly the last great harvest would be ripened and Christ would come to gather the precious grain." C.O.L.69.

sky

[skyblue888]

By becoming man God did not cease being God Robert...

...Herein lies the root ( and problem ) of the Adventist rubric.

Gustave

____________

Though John did a good job at answering this, I will only add this. He did not cease being God but His divinity was kept back, held down the whole time. If he had used His own divinity in the contest with evil, all would have been lost. Satan would have triumphed.

"He clothed His divinity with humanity. He was all the while as God, but He did not appear as God... He walked the earth as a man." E.G. White, 5 B.C.1126.

sky

[Gustave]

Ellen White herself says that when Christ became man, He did not cease to be God.

[Raphael]

Christ's divinity being held back or not is not what I was pointing out. It was the relation between the two natures of Christ (again, either held back or not). There always has to be harmony between the two. Even though held back, the human nature of Christ still had to comply with the divine part by not failing or having its failure POSSIBILITIES because it would not be in harmony with His divine (held back) nature if otherwise.

Once again, Christ's being humanly hungry, pained and killed is not in conflict with His divinity. Sinning, failing or its POSSIBILITIES are in direct conflict with His divine nature (again held back or not).

[skyblue888]

But it was as though His divinity was not in the picture at all since it was held back the whole time. He lived only as a man becoming one with the Father through faith in His promises.

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: John317

Ellen White herself says that when Christ became man, He did not cease to be God.

Why then did Ellen say "GOD" could sin and loose His salvation John?

Originally Posted By: John317

But you apparently fail to understand what is being said.

I'm afraid I'm understanding what Ellen said better than you have

Originally Posted By: John317

Jesus was tempted by sin and the Devil.

Where was Jesus tempted by "sin" ( withinhimself ) John?

...I know of every place Scripture says He was tempted by or of the Devil.

...HUGE difference.

Originally Posted By: John317

Was God tempted by sin and the Devil?

God was temped "BY" or "OF" the Devil for the Same reason Jesus was called out of Egypt...

...Because the Scriptures said He would be called out of Egypt EXACTLY.

...As the Scriptures said God wouldn't sin or fail.

[quote=John317

Did God get tired?

As God "took on" our human flesh and in all ways EXCEPT FOR SIN was like us....

...God knows exactly what it feels like to feel tired.

________

"The enticements which Christ resisted were those that we find it so difficult to withstand." D.A.116.

Don't forget that it was our humanity that He took upon Him, our humanity which had been degraded by sin for 4,000 years.

[Overaged]

Why then did Ellen say "GOD" could sin and loose His salvation John?

As the Scriptures said God wouldn't sin or fail.

As God "took on" our human flesh and in all ways EXCEPT FOR SIN was like us....

...God knows exactly what it feels like to feel tired.

Gustave! Good to see you are still with us man! How do you put up with all of us crusty old Adventists for this long, eh? ("eh" is Canadian vernacular for "huh?").

Anyways; you raised a good point here. The scriptures do tell us that God would not "sin" or "fail." This is an important point.

And; as has been shown here; the Scriptures also say that Jesus (God) was "tempted." But it must be that since God *could* be tempted, then He *could* have given in to it; but only if He chose to. That is not wrong Biblically to conclude this. Ellen White and the Adventist Church both recognize the dual truths that Jesus could have *chose* to sin; and that the Bible says; in fact, that He never did/will sin.

When the Bible says that Jesus would never sin or fail; it does not mean that He could not be tempted somehow. And if He could potentially or actually be tempted, then it must needs be that IF He chose to; He could have sinned. We are only saying that anyone, if they choose to sin, and stay in that sin, would lose their salvation.

[John317]

Ellen White herself says that when Christ became man, He did not cease to be God.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Why then did Ellen say "GOD" could sin and loose His salvation John?

Where does she say that "God" could sin and lose his salvation?

Jesus of Nazareth was God in the flesh, but Jesus was not here on earth as God Almighty. He was here as a man. As a man, He developed a human personality, and as a man, He was totally dependent on the Father. Jesus the man didn't know everything but he relied on God for all His wisdom and knowledge.

Remember that Jesus Himself the man said, "I can do nothing of myself." (John 5: 19, 30) Did God say, "I can do nothing"?

Ellen White also said God did not sink and die but humanity did. It is impossible for God to die, and nowhere does the Bible teach that God died.

Luke 3: 23 says that Jesus was about 30 years of age. That speaks of Christ's human nature. Yet if we are speaking of Christ's divine nature, we can say that he eternally existed (as in John 8: 58).

"The human and the divine natures were not confused or changed when Christ became man, but the human nature remained a truly human nature, and the divine nature remained a truly divine nature" (Systematic Theology, Wayne Grudem, page 557). This expresses what SDAs believe concerning the human and the divine natures of Jesus Christ.

[skyblue888]

It makes no sense at all to claim that Jesus of Nazareth could not sin or be tempted to sin. Who in his right mind, professing to be a follower of God, could accept or teach such a thing!!! The whole plan of salvation would fall or stand depending on Jesus resisting the very enticements we find it so difficult to withstand from the flesh and from without.

By the grace of God He overcame them all and now He gives us His grace through faith in His merits that we may overcome them as He overcame then.

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: John317

Ellen White herself says that when Christ became man, He did not cease to be God.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Why then did Ellen say "GOD" could sin and loose His salvation John?

Where does she say that "God" could sin and lose his salvation?

Jesus of Nazareth was God in the flesh, but Jesus was not here on earth as God Almighty. He was here as a man. As a man, He was totally dependent on the Father. Jesus the man didn't know everything but he relied on God for all His wisdom and knowledge.

Ellen White also said God did not sink and die but humanity did. It is impossible for God to die, and nowhere does the Bible teach that God died.

Luke 3: 23 says that Jesus was about 30 years of age. That speaks of Christ's human nature. Yet if we are speaking of Christ's divine nature, we can say that he eternally existed (as in John 8: 58).

"The human and the divine natures were not confused or changed when Christ became man, but the human nature remained a truly human nature, and the divine nature remained a truly divine nature" (Systamtic Theology, Wayne Grudem, page 557). This expresses what SDAs believe concerning the human and the divine nature of Jesus Christ.

Big Amen to that.

sky

[John317]

Gustave! Good to see you are still with us man! How do you put up with all of us crusty old Adventists for this long, eh?

[John317]

Did God get tired?

Originally Posted By: Gustave

As God "took on" our human flesh and in all ways EXCEPT FOR SIN was like us....

...God knows exactly what it feels like to feel tired.

God does indeed know what it feels like to be tired and hungry. But that doesn't mean that God was tired and hungry.

God knows all things, so He didn't have to be tired and hungry personally in order to know what it feels like to be tired and hungry.

Do you agree?

[John317]

Was God tempted by sin and the Devil?

Originally Posted By: Gustave

God was temped "BY" or "OF" the Devil for the Same reason Jesus was called out of Egypt...

Yet the Bible clearly teaches that God cannot be tempted:

James 1:13

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil...

Jesus of Nazareth the man was certainly tempted by the Devil and by sin, but God was not tempted, nor can He be.

[Gustave]

Yet the Bible clearly teaches that God cannot be tempted:

[John317]

Where is the heresy in believing that Jesus was free to choose? I'm not asking about heresy according to the creeds but heresy in accordacance with the teachings of Holy Scripture.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

The Creeds simply systematize Scripture...

I agree they attempt to do this, but they are sometimes wrong, and they are not an authority. They are historically important and of interest for what they teach us about the beliefs of the Christian church, but they shouldn't ever be used in place of the Bible. When the Creeds disagree with the Bible, it's absolutely necessary to accept the Bible's testimony and reject the Creeds.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

...Scripture says God would absolutely come AND save us.

Agree.

Quote:

...Scripture identifies Christ as the 3rd Person of the Godhead.

Agree.

[Added later: as skyblue pointed out, Christ is the second person of the Godhead. The Holy Spirit is the 3rd Person of the Godhead.]

Quote:

...Scripture is EXPLICIT that God does not sin OR fail.

...Old Testament Scripture affirms that Christ would ABSOLUTELY SAVE US.

Agree.

But yet none of the above means that Jesus had no choice whether to be faithful to God, nor do they mean that Jesus could not have sinned.

The prophecies don't interfere with human freedom. God's will is accomplished without forcing people to do anything contrary to their own human will. For instance, God didn't force Judas to do what he did, nor did God make Pilate or Ananias do anything against their will. Yet the prophecies predicted what they would do.

[skyblue888]

Quote:

...Scripture identifies Christ as the 3rd Person of the Godhead.

Agree.

_____________

John you agreed with that?

sky :)

[John317]

Gustave:

...Scripture identifies Christ as the 3rd Person of the Godhead.

John3:17:

Agree.

_____________

John you agreed with that?

sky

No. I believe Gustave misspoke. Christ is of course the second person of the Godhead.

Thanks for pointing this out. I should have done the same.

[skyblue888]

:)

I wonder if he made a mistake or what

sky

[John317]

Jesus was tempted by sin and the Devil.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Where was Jesus tempted by "sin" ( withinhimself ) John?

...I know of every place Scripture says He was tempted by or of the Devil.

...HUGE difference.

James 1:14-15

But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. [15] Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

Hebrews 4:15

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Yes, Jesus the man was tempted from within himself as other humans are. He was not merely tempted from outside Himself.

For instance, his hunger (inside Himself) caused him to desire to make bread from the rocks. That is, His human hunger made Him tempted to use His divine power to go against God's will. Jesus resisted the temptation and followed the commandments of God.

As another instance, when Jesus was in the Garden before His crucifixion, He had the desire (within Himself) to avoid death. That is, Jesus had the internal desire to go against the Father's will. In this instance, Jesus' will was not in harmony with God's will. That is why Jesus submitted His will to the Father's. Again, Jesus resisted the temptation to follow His own human will and He overcame.

Remember that temptation itself is not sin.

[skyblue888]

Temptation itself is not sin.

Exactly.

That is why Jesus, as man, was tempted in all points like as we are and yet without sinning. He lived a sinless life in sinful flesh!

Amazing feat to say the very least of it.

sky

[John317]

Yes, there was nothing easy about it. We know that Christ had real struggles.

I think we minimize the struggles and temptations Christ experienced when we talk as if it was all a slam-dunk. God went through those temptations with Jesus the same as He goes through them with us. This is vitally important for humans to realize. God doesn't remove the temptations and the struggles we have, but God goes through them with us. We have access to the same power to resist and overcome that Jesus had as a man on this earth.

Satan, of course, wants us to be ignorant of this truth. It's to his advantage for human beings to believe that Jesus' human nature was completely different from their own, and that Christ resisted and overcame through powers that we do not have.

[Raphael]

Just had Wednesday prayer meeting... exchange ideas with fellow SDAs and its minister upon this tongue twisting "free choice therefore God could have sin pitch" and I could see the horrid look on their faces when the minister even tried to reinforce that story. I conclude that this must be one of the subjects that have to be passed in SDA Theology studies and must have indoctrinatedly uniform the majority experiencing this, but try bringing it down to the general laymen and savor the interesting negative reaction.