Was Christ Truly Tempted in all Points as Fallen Humanity?

[John317]

... God could have sin pitch" and I could see the horrid look on their faces when the minister even tried to reinforce that story.

Do you mean the pastor said "God could have sinned"?

Or did he say Jesus could have sinned?

Have you read chapter 4 in the book, published by the SDA church, called Seventh-day Adventists Believe... 28 FB? You can access this book online.

See the section under "Could Christ Sin?"

The horrid look on people's faces may have been because they realize how horrid it would have been if Christ had sinned.

It's horrid to consider that all humanity would have been doomed to eternal death.

[John317]

...I conclude that this must be one of the subjects that have to be passed in SDA Theology studies and must have indoctrinatedly uniform the majority experiencing this, but try bringing it down to the general laymen and savor the interesting negative reaction.

It is the belief of the entire world church. The prophet of God, Ellen White, states it plainly over and over again.

I myself am a general layman.

If what you say is true and accurate, I think there may be a difference between some of the beliefs of SDAs in Indonesia and SDAs in North America.

This is a teaching that is found in the Sabbath School quarterlies and in many SDA publications.

You won't find a single SDA publication or SDA pastor teaching that Christ could not have sinned.

[Gustave]

Agree.

But yet none of the above means that Jesus had no choice whether to be faithful to God, nor do they mean that Jesus could not have sinned.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Correct, but by becoming what He was not by Divine right (i.e., human) He could fail. He was the last Adam.

By becoming man God did not cease being God Robert...

...Herein lies the root ( and problem ) of the Adventist rubric.

He remained God, but He became what He was not - the Son of Man (the last Adam). As man He could sin.

The thing that we need to realize is what we call in theology, “the kenosis doctrine,” based on Phil. 2:6-8. When Christ became a man in the incarnation He had to give up not His divinity, but His divine prerogatives, in other words, the independent use of His divinity. Even His God-consciousness had to be given up. Jesus discovered He was God only by revelation. He was not God-conscious as a baby. He had to grow up in knowledge. He had to grow up in everything because He had given up the independent use of His divinity and was made in all things like unto us (Heb. 2:17).

Therefore, He was totally God-dependent all through His earthly ministry. John 5:30 says, “I can do nothing of myself.” John 6:57 says, “I live by the Father.” See also John 8:28 and John 14:10. All these texts state very clearly that Christ was totally God-dependent.

[Gustave]

God could have sin pitch" and I could see the horrid look on their faces when the minister even tried to reinforce that story.

That's because anyone who has even a minute time "in the Bible"....

...Would recognize a peccable Christ as ALIEN to the Christ spoken of in Scripture.

[John317]

God could have sin pitch" and I could see the horrid look on their faces when the minister even tried to reinforce that story.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

That's because anyone who has even a minute time "in the Bible"....

...Would recognize a peccable Christ as ALIEN to the Christ spoken of in Scripture.

First of all, the horrid look on people's faces may have been because they realize how horrid it would have been if Christ had sinned.

It's horrid to consider that all humanity would have been doomed to eternal death. It isn't necessarily because they are disagreeing with the pastor.

There is more than one reason people can have a horrid look on their faces when the preacher says Christ could have sinned.It may be because they agree and understand the horrible consequences of failure.

[Gustave]

Temptation itself is not sin.

Exactly.

That is why Jesus, as man, was tempted in all points like as we are and yet without sinning. He lived a sinless life in sinful flesh!

Amazing feat to say the very least of it.

Here is an amazing FACT for you.

Matthew 15,18

But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man:

Read James 1: 1 - 20 a couple of times...

...Then crack your Bible open to the following.

...And read it over a couple of times.

Romans 6,12

Let not SIN therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey IT in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God

You are claiming Christ was born with Original "Sin"...

...This is ALSO absolute blasphemy.

...Are you suggesting that because Adam needed to be saved.

...That Christ also needed to be "saved"?

[John317]

...You are claiming Christ was born with Original "Sin"...

The Bible does not teach "Original sin," Gustave. SDAs don't believe in original sin as Augustine of Hippo taught it.

Catholics teach that Mary was born immaculately but we have no such belief because it is not taught in the Bible.

We believe as the Bible teaches, that Christ took the same human nature as his mother and as his human ancestors, Adam, Abraham, and David.

Were you unaware of this?

[Robert]

You are claiming Christ was born with Original "Sin"......This is ALSO absolute blasphemy....Are you suggesting that because Adam needed to be saved....That Christ also needed to be "saved"?

Original sin is a lie. You aren't born guilty of Adam's sin. Yes, we are born to a condemned race. We stand condemned because we are Adam's children. We stand condemned because we belong to a fallen race, indwelt with iniquity, but we aren't guilty of sin until we commit sin. Since we are born without the Spirit of God our minds and natures are in agreement and sinning is natural.

Jesus was born spiritually alive. This means He was born with His mind under the control of God's Spirit. Hence He never gave into our sin nature. However, because He associated Himself with our fallen humanity He positioned Himself under the curse. Hence Gal 4:4

[John317]

[John317]

...Yes, you indeed did catch a typo I made, Christ eternally was the 2nd Person of the Trinity...

...I'm still in a state of shock I actually made that typo!

That's OK, friend. I know Catholics believe the same as we do when it comes to that aspect of the Trinity, so I was pretty sure it was a typo. Everyone can make them. :-)

[Gustave]

Original sin is a lie. You aren't born guilty of Adam's sin. Yes, we are born to a condemned race. We stand condemned because we are Adam's children. We stand condemned because we belong to a fallen race, indwelt with iniquity, but we aren't guilty of sin until we commit sin. Since we are born without the Spirit of God our minds and natures are in agreement and sinning is natural.

Jesus was born spiritually alive. This means He was born with His mind under the control of God's Spirit. Hence He never gave into our sin nature. However, because He associated Himself with our fallen humanity He positioned Himself under the curse. Hence Gal 4:4

You have Catholicism confused with Lutheranism here...

...What you just said is more in line with Catholicism.

...Than it is with ProtISM.

...What gives here Robert?

[Gustave]

He remained God, but He became what He was not - the Son of Man (the last Adam). As man He could sin.

The thing that we need to realize is what we call in theology, “the kenosis doctrine,” based on Phil. 2:6-8. When Christ became a man in the incarnation He had to give up not His divinity, but His divine prerogatives, in other words, the independent use of His divinity. Even His God-consciousness had to be given up. Jesus discovered He was God only by revelation. He was not God-conscious as a baby. He had to grow up in knowledge. He had to grow up in everything because He had given up the independent use of His divinity and was made in all things like unto us (Heb. 2:17).

Therefore, He was totally God-dependent all through His earthly ministry. John 5:30 says, “I can do nothing of myself.” John 6:57 says, “I live by the Father.” See also John 8:28 and John 14:10. All these texts state very clearly that Christ was totally God-dependent.

You must have missed my previous posts on Kenosis...

...Where I showed how Scripture explicitly states the Eternal Christ.

...Had the same mind post Incarnation as He did pre Incarnation.

...There was NEVER a time when the Son wasn't "totally dependent" on the Father.

The Eternal Son, in 'flesh'...

...Lived "in flesh" the same life He did prior to taking on human nature.

...Again, THAT is Trinity 101 even for Prots - it is only rejected by JW's and the like.

[Robert]

...There was NEVER a time when the Son wasn't "totally dependent" on the Father.

Before the incarnation He wasn't dependent.....He was One of the Trinity.

[Gustave]

Before the incarnation He wasn't dependent.....He was One of the Trinity

You need to read Philippians 2 again....

...Paying close attention to what the author said the mind of Christ was PRIOR to adopting flesh.

I'm thinking the following is where you got that idea from....

...Of course the idea traces back well past 1996.

Seventh day Adventist Review, Oct 31, 1996

A plan of salvation was encompassed in the covenant made by the Three Persons of the Godhead, who possessed the attributes of Deity equally. In order to eradicate sin and rebellion from the universe and to restore harmony and peace, ONE of the divine Beings accepted, and ENTERED into, the role of the Father, ANOTHER the role of the Son. The remaining divine Being, the Holy Spirit, was also to participate in effecting the plan of salvation. All of this took place before sin and rebellion transpired in heaven. By accepting the roles that the plan entailed, the divine Beings lost none of the powers of Deity. With regard to their eternal existence and other attributes, they were one and equal. But with regard to the plan of salvation, there was, in a sense, a submission on the part of the Son to the Father.

The above is NOT the Trinity, not even close....

...Christ is the Eternal Son of God.

[Robert]

Phil 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross!

[Gustave]

Phil 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did NOT consider equality with God something to be grasped [ SEIZED ], 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross!

"Grasped" does not mean "UNDERSTOOD" in the Greek....

...It means to firmly lay your hands on something.

[BobRyan]

Christ was tempted in our infirmities...

...Exactly as the text which teaches of this says.

Hebrews 4,15

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; BUT was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin

[BobRyan]

Do you believe Christ could have lost his salvation and been erased by the Father had he sinned?

[Gustave]

Tempted like us - BUT did not SIN like we have done in response to our temptations.

[BobRyan]

I did not find "Tempted IN OUR infirmities" rather what we find is that he CAN be "touched with the FEELING of our infirmities" even now in heaven - he can be touched -- sympathize with -- our infirmities -- BECAUSE back when he was on earth He was "tempted like we ARE - yet without sin".

Real temptation!

Real threat - real problem... not a candy problem - a real one that he overcame.

One that sinless Adam did NOT overcome.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Do you believe Christ could have lost his salvation and been erased by the Father had he sinned?

Originally Posted By: John317

1) Jesus of Nazareth was a free moral agent.

2) The temptations by Satan were very real temptations. In order to be real, there has to be a possibility of falling. Otherwise it is a make-believe temptation.

3) Adam's temptations were real and he obviously had a possibility of falling. Therefore the temptations mean that Jesus of Nazareth also could have fallen.

4) Had Jesus sinned, He wouldn't have been resurrected but would have been eternally lost just like all humanity.

5) Since God was not tempted by sin, but the man Jesus of Nazareth was, God would not have ceased to exist if Jesus had sinned. We frankly don't know all the details of what would have happened if Christ had fallen, but we do know that God risked all heaven for the sake of saving our lost and dying world.

Phil 2 is clear that Christ was in the form of God - equal to God the Father - but did not choose to CLING to that equality and relationship. Rather He willingly chose to "empty Himself" and be found NOT in the "form of God" but rather "in the form of man" - on earth, weakened, and in our fallen human nature.

In John 14 Christ said "I go to the Father for the Father is GREATER than I". Clearly Christ had "emptied himself" to become a man.

Yet still sinless as was Adam before the fall.

Christ succeeded in the same sinless nature in which Adam fell. But he did so in fallen human nature weakened by 4000 years of sin - not in Adam's pristine human nature.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gustave]

Then there we have the flaw in your argument. You simply need to read Genesis 3 a bit more closely.

Adam and Eve had sinless natures.

Adam and Eve were tempted.

Adam and Eve sinned.

Christ was tempted - but unlike Adam and Eve - Christ did not choose to sin.

Again - this point is pretty hard to miss.

Jesus was not simply a "man" Bob....

...Jesus was the God - Man.

...You seemed to have missed that.

Also, Genesis 3,15 states.

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou SHALT bruise his heel"

Romans 16,20

And the God of peace SHALL bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen

God said it would eventually be OVER for Satan in Genesis...

...St Paul says it will also happen.

...One of these statements was made when Adam was still alive.

...And Paul's made after the death of "The Eternal Christ".

...What part of this are you not getting.

[Gustave]

#477850 ) Bob Ryan's post.

You are missing the point - Christ had a humble mind to the Father, "ETERNALLY"...

...Us Papists call this "Eternal Generation" which simply means that the Father has eternally been the Father.

...The Son has always been the Son & the Holy Spirit has always been the Holy Spirit.

Catholics don't believe that 3 equal members of Deity adopted & entered ROLES of Father / Son / Holy spirit....

...Subsequent to sin taking place in Eden.

...This type of belief we leave to Adventist groups.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Jesus was not simply a "man" Bob....

...Jesus was the God - Man.

No doubt - but He was the god-man who could do "NOTHING of Himself" according to His own words.

Thus the first temptation in Matt 4 was to act as God "of Himself" and turn stone into bread. An act that God alone can do.

Which gets us back to Phil 2 -

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Phil 2 is clear that Christ was in the form of God - equal to God the Father - but did not choose to CLING to that equality and relationship. Rather He willingly chose to "empty Himself" and be found NOT in the "form of God" but rather "in the form of man" - on earth' date=' weakened, and in our fallen human nature.

In John 14 Christ said "I go to the Father for the Father is GREATER than I". Clearly Christ had "emptied himself" to become a man.

Yet still sinless as was Adam before the fall.

Christ succeeded in the same sinless nature in which Adam fell. But he did so in fallen human nature weakened by 4000 years of sin - not in Adam's pristine human nature.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Also, Genesis 3,15 states.

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou SHALT bruise his heel"

[/quote']

Indeed - Christ is victor in the battle with satan - but you are blindly turning from the Gen 3 point that Adam and Eve did NOT have to first be sinful or corrupt to choose sin.

This is a not-so-subtle point that is hard to miss.

You keep arguing that for it to be POSSIBLE for Christ to sin - He must first be morally corrupt inwardly. Your speculation is not supported by the Genesis 3 bible facts with Adam and Eve.

in Christ,

Bob