Was Christ Truly Tempted in all Points as Fallen Humanity?

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

As I've said and shown from Scripture several times...

...God can DO ANYTHING except NOT BE GOD.

...Therefore God is NOT a free moral agent.

That doesn't make sense to me, Gustave. We can't do anything except be human, but that doesn't mean we aren't a free moral agent.

To be a free moral agent means that a person has real choices. He could do one thing or another.

God is surely free to make choices, is He not?

Simply because God cannot will Himself into non-existence is no evidence that God is not free to choose.

Did God freely choose to make the world and Adam, or did God HAVE to do that?

Also God could've just chose to not save man kind period and start over.

[Gustave]

You can't just pick out one scripture verse, throw it out as meaningless, and insert a different text to take it's place like this. "All Scripture is profitable for doctrine...."

It's not one scripture verse - it's the consensus of "all Scripture"...

...Which is why it's taught to the degree that it is.

...Exception being the Jehovah's Witnesses and other Adventists.

Matthew 10,28

And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are NOT able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell

That's Jesus saying that if a person is "killed" it's ONLY the body that dies...

...Reason: Jesus says they CAN'T kill the soul because they are not ABLE to kill the soul.

...= The soul is still LIVING past the death of the body.

Romans 8,38

For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor might,Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Death does NOT separate the saved Christian from the love of Christ Jesus...

...That's explicit Overaged.

Hebrews 12,22

But you are come to mount Sion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to the company of many thousands of angels, And to the church of the firstborn, who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, AND to the spirits of the just made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new testament, and to the sprinkling of blood which speaketh better than that of Abel.

Like I said previously - Hebrews 12 speaks of a General assembly in "heaven"....

...Present ARE angels, God & the SPIRITS "of" the just which have been made perfect.

...If the spirits of the just are not there ( at the assembly ) what about God & the angels?

Phili 1,22

And if to live in the flesh, that is to me the fruit of labour, and what I shall choose I know not.But I am straitened between two: having a desire to be dissolved and to be with Christ, a thing by far the better. But to abide still in the flesh, is needful for you

Be dissolved = "TO SEPARATE INTO COMPONENT PARTS"

Notice the last thing the Apostle says - it's important to those Christians he was preaching to....

...That he continue to abide in the flesh.

...Contrasted with abiding OUT OF THE FLESH and being with Christ.

...Which was FAR better.

Can you honestly tell me you think Paul was saying he believed he would just be knocked out at death....

...And that was better than working miracles and preaching the Gospel?

[Gustave]

I'm back - had a great time with my Dad and took in the fair...

...Thank you all who wished me well.

[John317]

...

Matthew 10,28

And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are NOT able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell

That's Jesus saying that if a person is "killed" it's ONLY the body that dies...

...Reason: Jesus says they CAN'T kill the soul because they are not ABLE to kill the soul.

...= The soul is still LIVING past the death of the body.

God can destroy both body and soul. We cannot kill the soul because God is able to resurrect the person. The soul is the entire person. A man can take your present life by killing your body, but a man has no power over your eternal life. Only God has such power. God will one day resurrect the wicked and destroy both their body and soul in a fire that will never be quenched. But the righteous will be resurrected and awarded immortality. It is in this sense that only God has the power to destroy both body and soul.

Genesis 2:7

then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

Genesis 2:7

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Ezekiel 18: 20 says that souls can die.

Notice the process:

dust + breath of life= living soul

God did not put a living soul within us. When we have breath within us, we are living souls. When our breath of life leaves our bodies, we die, and the Bible then calls us dead souls.

Genesis 3:19

By the sweat of your face

you shall eat bread,

till you return to the ground,

for out of it you were taken;

for you are dust,

and to dust you shall return."

NOTE: Nothing is said here about a conscious entity living beyond the death of the body. We are dust. When we die, we return to dust, and the spirit [breath of life] which God gave to us returns to Him who gave it.

Eccles. 12:7

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Notice this says that the spirit [breath of life] of all people, good and bad, returns to God who gave it.

Job 27:3

All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils.

Psalm 146:4--

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Eccles. 9:5,6--

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun

Eccles. 9:10

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

Eccles. 3:18-21

I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. [19] For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. [20] All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. [21] Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?

NOTE: the death process is exactly the same for man and beast. If it were not for Jesus Christ and the resurrection, there would be absolutely no more hope for us than there is for the animals.

This is exactly what Paul says in 1 Cor. 15: 17, 18--

1 Cor. 15:17-18

And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. [18] Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

But praise God, there is a resurrection coming:

1 Thes. 4:16-18

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so [in this way] we will always be with the Lord. [18] Therefore encourage one another with these words.

NOTE: It is by the resurrection and the second coming that the righteous saved go to be with the Lord. The Bible nowhere says that the dead go to be with the Lord immediately upon death. It teaches that the dead remain in an unconcious sleep in the grave until Christ returns and raises the dead our of their gaves. Read John 11. "All that are in their graves shall hear His voice and come forth..." John 5: 28.

Where are the dead when Christ returns? In their graves, not in heaven.

.

[miz3]

Humans are not "free moral agents".

You don't sin because you chose to sin. You sin because you cannot help it, sin is what you are.

A dog cannot chose to act like a cat. Why? Because a dog is a dog. The dog cannot help acting like a dog because s/he is a dog.

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

Jeremiah 13:23.

That is a clear enough passage.

No free moral agency. We humans do what we do because of what we are. It is impossible for us to do good (not because we "choose") but because of what we are.

[Gustave]

"The text says" that he "emptied himself" to do it.

The key point you keep stepping over.

[John317]

Phili 1,22

And if to live in the flesh, that is to me the fruit of labour, and what I shall choose I know not.But I am straitened between two: having a desire to be dissolved and to be with Christ, a thing by far the better. But to abide still in the flesh, is needful for you

Be dissolved = "TO SEPARATE INTO COMPONENT PARTS"

Notice the last thing the Apostle says - it's important to those Christians he was preaching to....

...That he continue to abide in the flesh.

...Contrasted with abiding OUT OF THE FLESH and being with Christ.

...Which was FAR better.

Let's look carefully at the verse in the entire context:

KJV--Philip. 1:21-25

For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. [22] But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. [23] For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: [24] Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. [25] And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;

ESV--Philip. 1:21-25

For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. [22] If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. [23] I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. [24] But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account. [25] Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith,

[John317]

Humans are not "free moral agents".

You don't sin because you chose to sin. You sin because you cannot help it, sin is what you are.

Then why does God command us not to sin?

The Bible shows that sin is a choice. WE don't have to sin. No one can force you to sin.

Jesus told the woman caught in adultery, "Go, and do not continue sinning." He would not have told her this if she had no choice whether to sin or not.

The Bible teaches that the wicked-- those without God-- cannot cease to sin. It does not say the righteous saved cannot cease to sin.Quite the contrary: "Be angry and do not sin." Eph 4: 26.

2 Peter 2:13-14

And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the daytime. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; [14] Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children."

[Overaged]

Humans are not "free moral agents".

You don't sin because you chose to sin. You sin because you cannot help it, sin is what you are.

A dog cannot chose to act like a cat. Why? Because a dog is a dog. The dog cannot help acting like a dog because s/he is a dog.

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

Jeremiah 13:23.

That is a clear enough passage.

No free moral agency. We humans do what we do because of what we are. It is impossible for us to do good (not because we "choose") but because of what we are.

I have a dog that has proved you wrong.

[Overaged]

I'm back - had a great time with my Dad and took in the fair...

...Thank you all who wished me well.

Good to have you back and to hear that you had a great visit with family!

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

You can't just pick out one scripture verse, throw it out as meaningless, and insert a different text to take it's place like this. "All Scripture is profitable for doctrine...."

It's not one scripture verse - it's the consensus of "all Scripture"...

...Which is why it's taught to the degree that it is.

...Exception being the Jehovah's Witnesses and other Adventists.

Can you honestly tell me you think Paul was saying he believed he would just be knocked out at death....

...And that was better than working miracles and preaching the Gospel?

To be fair Gustave; it is not really the "conenses" of all scripture; for the simple reason that some scripture says otherwise.

The Bible states that there are two things required to make a soul. The breath of life breathed in by God, and the body made from scratch by God. It is not until BOTH are combined that there is a soul; the Bible calling it a "living soul."

The Bible says that souls can die. Souls meaning the same in these texts, as in the Genesis text. Therefore, when a "soul" dies; God says: "The dead know not anything." (Eccl 9:4-5). The body and soul are created together; they die together, and they are resurrected together. They don't get separated at any point in time.

[Overaged]

Death does NOT separate the saved Christian from the love of Christ Jesus...

...That's explicit Overaged.

Well that's what the Bible says. it says:

"I am persuaded the neither life nor death nor angels nor principalities nor things past nor things present nor any other thing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus."

That is the purpose of the resurrection. death cannot hold the christian in the grave.

PS Gustave; let me ask you a question, if I may? What is meant in this text I quoted from Paul's letter to the Romans when it says "the love of God IN CHRIST JESUS?"

[Overaged]

It's not one scripture verse - it's the consensus of "all Scripture"...

...Which is why it's taught to the degree that it is.

...Exception being the Jehovah's Witnesses and other Adventists.

Phili 1,22

And if to live in the flesh, that is to me the fruit of labour, and what I shall choose I know not.But I am straitened between two: having a desire to be dissolved and to be with Christ, a thing by far the better. But to abide still in the flesh, is needful for you

Be dissolved = "TO SEPARATE INTO COMPONENT PARTS"

Which Bible version did you use here? The actual meaning taken from the KJV word usage is only derived from a word meaning "to breakup;" but the intended meanings are "depart" or "return;" and either can be literal or figurative.

[Twilight II]

Humans are not "free moral agents".

You don't sin because you chose to sin. You sin because you cannot help it, sin is what you are.

A dog cannot chose to act like a cat. Why? Because a dog is a dog. The dog cannot help acting like a dog because s/he is a dog.

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

Jeremiah 13:23.

That is a clear enough passage.

No free moral agency. We humans do what we do because of what we are. It is impossible for us to do good (not because we "choose") but because of what we are.

I agree.

This is why we must be "born again".

We must move from the ground of our old "Adam nature" and step onto the ground of our "Second Adam nature".

Which is a gift from God enabled by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

God has dealt with our "sinful nature", not just our "sinful acts".

[Raphael]

Because sinning is truly a choice that needs to be exercised, particularly in Christ's case (..can't go around blaming sin or temptations cos if in that case anyone may get away having a convenient culprit to blame) that means its about decision-making... about the famous freedom of choice...

Simply because Christ or anyone was provided freedom of choice wouldn't mean the real possibilities of committing suicide (one of many sins)... even in reality, the statistics of those 'suiciding' compared to the majority of the world's populace are insignificant.

Perhaps suicide is too extreme, how about going around banging one's head on the wall... oh, these are real possibilities for everyone, aren't they?

Because everything comes down to personal decision-making with NO CULPRITS to blame and conveniently get-away with... therefore in the future heavenly life, will these risk resulting (still) existing freedom of choice ... still pose true possibilities of sin, failure and its siblings?

Perhaps one could say that there are no temptations in the future heaven.. would that be trying to say... because of temptations... not my accountable me...

Heavenly themes are to lofty, how about in this world... the freedom of choice has availed an infinite list of options but how many of them truly happen? Even in this world, real possibilities of say... eating and pooping in the same time are so far-fetched.. yet lo they are true events that are very well considered to transpire... aren't they?

I feel I am entering another world and need to end...