BobRyan Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 #477850 ) Bob Ryan's post. You are missing the point - Christ had a humble mind to the Father, "ETERNALLY"... ...Us Papists call this "Eternal Generation" You are free to quote you as the authority or basis of your beliefs. But the SDA solution is to appeal to the Bible for our doctrine. In this case - Phil 2 and John 14 are pretty compelling. Christ as God the Son - existed with God the Father "from everlasting to everlasting". From eternity. One God in three persons. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Gustave Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 No doubt - but He was the god-man who could do "NOTHING of Himself" according to His own words. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted September 22, 2011 Moderators Posted September 22, 2011 Original sin is a lie. You aren't born guilty of Adam's sin. Originally Posted By: Gustave You have Catholicism confused with Lutheranism here... Are you saying that Catholics don't believe people are born guilty of Adam's sin? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted September 22, 2011 Moderators Posted September 22, 2011 You keep arguing that for it to be POSSIBLE for Christ to sin - He must first be morally corrupt inwardly. Your speculation is not supported by the Genesis 3 bible facts with Adam and Eve. Originally Posted By: Gustave Adam and Eve's was a willful sin and while they did not have original sin.......They COULD and DID sin. OK, so you concede that for a person to sin, they need not have original sin. Originally Posted By: Gustave What I've been demonstrating to you and the SDA's here is that......For Ellen's heretical doctrine to take place. Our Perfect "God" would be required to MUTATE into a sinner... ...Which is something Scripture says is IMPOSSIBLE. Mutate? It would be better if you were to use biblical language. Where does the Bible say that it was impossible for Christ to have sinned? All SDAs agree that Christ never did sin. But where does it say in Scripture that Jesus of Nazareth never COULD have chosen to sin? How do you think it glorifies Jesus and God to say Jesus never could have sinned-- that He was not free to choose, that He had no choice but to do what He did? Why did Jesus come to this earth? Originally Posted By: Gustave ...To get around this you claim there was a man Jesus and a God Jesus....A blasphemous heresy which is Alien to Christianity. It is a basic teaching of Christianity that Christ had two natures. But no one here is saying that Christ was two people. Christ was one, single man, not two. I believe the following questions will point up the importance of distinguishing between the man Jesus and the eternal, pre-incarnate Word, who is God: 1) Did God die? 2) Was God ever thirty years old as Luke says of Jesus? 3) Was Mary the mother of God? Or was she the mother of Jesus' human nature? 4) Did God actually get tired, sleepy, thirsty, and hungry? Did God need or want something to eat and drink? 5) Is John 1: 1 talking about Jesus of Nazareth? Or is it talking about the pre-incarnate Word of God, who became the man Jesus? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted September 22, 2011 Moderators Posted September 22, 2011 ...I've quoted the Creed as a systemization of Scripture......And I've quotes hordes of Scriptures that absolutely say the Creed was right. ...When it CONDEMNED anyone who suggested a mutation capable Christ that could have sinned. I don't believe the Creed is saying the same thing as the Bible teaches regarding Christ. Frankly I don't care whether the creed condemns anyone. It's absolutely without authority. I believe the Bible teaches that Christ could have chosen to do other than He did. He did not HAVE to do what He did. He chose to do those things out of His love for us. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Gustave Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 Are you saying that Catholics don't believe people are born guilty of Adam's sin? No, that's Lutheranism. Original sin is the privation of sanctifying grace in consequence of the sin of Adam.... ...Concupiscence is the natural result of the privation of sanctifying grace. ...Adam and Eve lived within God's Grace - they were ejected from it = death. ...And every generation from Adam adopts the consequence of that sin. ...It is NOT the persons fault - it is a moral deformity. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted September 22, 2011 Moderators Posted September 22, 2011 Gustave, would you please quote a Catholic catechism on original sin in order to help verify what the Catholic Churches teaches? Here's the wikipedia: Quote: Original sin is, according to a theological doctrine, humanity's state of sin resulting from the Fall of Man. This condition has been characterized in many ways, ranging from something as insignificant as a slight deficiency, or a tendency toward sin yet without collective guilt, referred to as a "sin nature", to something as drastic as total depravity or automatic guilt by all humans through collective guilt. The doctrine is not found in Judaism, and its scriptural foundation is in the New Testament teaching of Paul the Apostle. (Romans 5:12-21 and 1 Corinthians 15:22). It began to be developed by the 2nd-century Bishop of Lyon Irenaeus in his controversy with the dualist Gnostics. In the theology of the Catholic Church, original sin is regarded as the general condition of sinfulness, that is (the absence of holiness and perfect charity) into which humans are born, distinct from the actual sins that a person commits. This teaching explicitly states that "original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants". In other words, human beings do not bear any "original guilt" from Adam and Eve's particular sin. The prevailing view, also held in Eastern Orthodoxy, is that human beings bear no guilt for the sin of Adam and Eve. Although Orthodoxy prefers using the term "ancestral sin",which indicates that "original sin is hereditary. It did not remain only Adam and Eve's. As life passes from them to all of their descendants, so does original sin "In this quotation, "original sin" is used not of the personal sin of Adam, which is his alone and is not transmitted, but in reference to the "distortion of the nature of man", which is inherited. An important exposition of the belief of Eastern Christians identifies original sin as physical and spiritual death, the spiritual death being the loss of "the grace of God, which quickened (the soul) with the higher and spiritual life".[9] Others see original sin also as the cause of actual sins: "a bad tree bears bad fruit" (Matthew 7:17, NIV), although, in this view, original and actual sin may be difficult to distinguish. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Overaged Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 Gustave, would you please quote a Catholic catechism on original sin to support your statement? Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
BobRyan Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 Are you saying that Catholics don't believe people are born guilty of Adam's sin? Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Moderators John317 Posted September 22, 2011 Moderators Posted September 22, 2011 Gustave, please explain why Catholics believe it's important that Mary was without original sin. Did Mary's mother have original sin? Isn't it in order to keep Christ from having original sin? Don't you believe that Christ would be condemned simply because of Original sin, even if Christ never chose to disobey His Father? So, on this view, sin is not a choice; sin is nature, right? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted September 22, 2011 Moderators Posted September 22, 2011 Infant baptism used to be required - was that because of original sin? "The Bible says" that we are to "repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of our sins" - did the RCC completely ignore that text when arguing for infant baptism? Does Catholic infant baptism have no relationship at all to sin? My wife's family, who are all Roman Catholic, was very concerned when we didn't have our two daughters baptized as infants. They were nice about it, but my wife said they wanted to know why she didn't have them baptized. Our daughters are in the twenties now and were baptized a few years ago at the local Seventh-day Adventist Church. They called the pastor themselves and asked him to come over to our house and study with them in preparation for baptism. They were very excited and were so happy they did it. They love going to church and studying their Bibles. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BobRyan Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 No doubt - but He was the god-man who could do "NOTHING of Himself" according to His own words. Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Moderators John317 Posted September 22, 2011 Moderators Posted September 22, 2011 Satan was telling Christ to invoke His own God powers - rather than "I can DO NOTHING except the Father tells Me". The sin was to act independently - and to use His God powers for His own benefit rather than "empty Himself and be found in the form of a man". The sin was to do - the very thing you want to claim Christ was doing all the time - using his God powers to benefit Himself. Those are such important points. They are worth posting again and very well put. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BobRyan Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 Which gets us back to Phil 2 - Indeed - Christ is victor in the battle with satan - but you are blindly turning from the Gen 3 point that Adam and Eve did NOT have to first be sinful or corrupt to choose sin. Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Members phkrause Posted September 22, 2011 Members Posted September 22, 2011 Satan was telling Christ to invoke His own God powers - rather than "I can DO NOTHING except the Father tells Me". The sin was to act independently - and to use His God powers for His own benefit rather than "empty Himself and be found in the form of a man". The sin was to do - the very thing you want to claim Christ was doing all the time - using his God powers to benefit Himself. in Christ, Bob Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Moderators John317 Posted September 22, 2011 Moderators Posted September 22, 2011 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
skyblue888 Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 Lucifer himself and all the angels who fell with him sinned while being in a perfect nature in Heaven. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Gustave Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 Gustave, would you please quote a Catholic catechism on original sin in order to help verify what the Catholic Churches teaches? Quote
Gustave Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 Lucifer himself and all the angels who fell with him sinned while being in a perfect nature in Heaven. sky Yes, of course they did... ...They were NOT God. ...Who Scripture says CAN'T sin & CAN'T DENY Himself. As I've said and shown from Scripture several times... ...God can DO ANYTHING except NOT BE GOD. ...Therefore God is NOT a free moral agent. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted September 22, 2011 Moderators Posted September 22, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 Gustave, would you please quote a Catholic catechism on original sin in order to help verify what the Catholic Churches teaches? Sure, http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm 405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle. That's just a small part of it John... ...Fell Free to read the complete section(s) dealing with this question. OK, thanks. I read the whole section. I can agree with much of it, of course, but I also have disagreements with some of it. I don't believe that sin is nature but that it is a choice. God doesn't condemn us or hold us responsible for the sin of Adam or for anyone else's sin except our own that we choose to do. One other thing I cannot agree with the Catholic Church about is its teaching that Adam and Eve were not actual individuals but that the stories in Gen. 1&2 and 11 are mythical and symbolic rather than literal. However, I do agree that all descendents of Adam inherit a fallen nature. None of us have the original holiness of Adam when he was first created. As you know, too, I disagree with the baptism of infants. But thanks for posting the quote from the Catholic Catechism on original sin. I can see that the Roman Catholic Church does not teach that each person is guilty of committing Adam's sin. Yet you do teach that Adam's sin-- and not merely the fallen nature of Adam-- is tranferred to all human beings, and that everyone who inherits Adam's nature is condemned because of his sin. Quote: ... he [Adam] has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the "death of the soul". Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin. 404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man". By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted September 22, 2011 Moderators Posted September 22, 2011 As I've said and shown from Scripture several times... ...God can DO ANYTHING except NOT BE GOD. ...Therefore God is NOT a free moral agent. That doesn't make sense to me, Gustave. We can't do anything except be human, but that doesn't mean we aren't a free moral agent. To be a free moral agent means that a person has real choices. He could do one thing or another. God is surely free to make choices, is He not? Simply because God cannot will Himself into non-existence is no evidence that God is not free to choose. Did God freely choose to make the world and Adam, or did God HAVE to do that? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Gustave Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 OK, thanks. I read the whole section. I can agree with much of it, of course, but I also have disagreements with some of it. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted September 22, 2011 Moderators Posted September 22, 2011 Gustave, please explain why Catholics believe it's important that Mary was without original sin. Originally Posted By: Gustave Simply because the Church teaches it.......The same as 'The Church' taught what it did in Acts Chapter 15. Is that a teaching which is found in the Bible? The Church has taught many errors, hasn't it? When did the Church first teach that Mary was born without original sin? And how was Mary born without original sin since she was obviously born of a sinful mother? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted September 22, 2011 Moderators Posted September 22, 2011 One other thing I cannot agree with the Catholic Church about is its teaching that Adam and Eve were not actual individuals but that the stories in Gen. 1&2 and 11 are mythical and symbolic rather than literal. Originally Posted By: Gustave That's not "de-fide" and many Catholics believe that Adam and Eve were literal......The religious truths taught by the Genesis are equally valid be they myth or literal. Do you know if there are also priests-- "the religious"-- who believe in a literal interpretation of Gen. 1 &2? I do agree that the religious truths of Genesis are valid even if the stories are myth, yet if they are myth-- and if humanity evolved from lower forms of life-- I would have a problem with the Fall and with the Bible's teaching about sin. I also see a problem with God's character of love if He used evolutionary processes to bring about human beings and all the life-forms we see in the world today. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Gustave Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gustave As I've said and shown from Scripture several times... ...God can DO ANYTHING except NOT BE GOD. ...Therefore God is NOT a free moral agent. That doesn't make sense to me, Gustave. We can't do anything except be human, but that doesn't mean we aren't a free moral agent. To be a free moral agent means that a person has real choices. He could do one thing or another. God is surely free to make choices, is He not? Simply because God cannot will Himself into non-existence is no evidence that God is not free to choose. Did God freely choose to make the world and Adam, or did God HAVE to do that? That's just it - Jesus was the God-Man ( fully God & fully Man ) IN the One Person Jesus Christ... ...Adventist groups split the natures so that they say there was the God Jesus and Man Jesus. ...The Incarnation was God became man w/out ceasing to be "God". ...I.E. God 'took on an additional Nature'. Quote
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