Was Christ Truly Tempted in all Points as Fallen Humanity?

[Gustave]

Do you know if there are also priests-- "the religious"-- who believe in a literal interpretation of Gen. 1 &2?

I do agree that the religious truths of Genesis are valid even if the stories are myth, yet if they are myth-- and if humanity evolved from lower forms of life, I would have a problem with the Fall and with the Bible's teaching about sin. I also see a problem with God's character of love if He used evolutionary processes to bring about human beings and all the life-forms we see in the world today.

Absolutely, there are MANY Priests who do...

...As well as a bevy of heavy weight apologists.

...Such as "Robert Sungenis".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KMnTmhk-rPw

[Gustave]

Opp's, SORRY, that was not the video....

...For Sungenis on Creation being literal.

...Feel free to watch this 6 part video on the ECF's.

...About literal creation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExPyX_etOog

[John317]

..Jesus was the God-Man ( fully God & fully Man ) IN the One Person Jesus Christ...

...Adventist groups split the natures so that they say there was the God Jesus and Man Jesus.

...The Incarnation was God became man w/out ceasing to be "God".

...I.E. God 'took on an additional Nature'.

SDAs do believe as you do, that Jesus was (and is) the God-Man, fully God and fully man. And we believe this One Person Jesus Christ is the God-Man. We don't teach or believe that He is two persons.

As you know, Ellen White herself taught that in the incarnation, God took human nature without ceasing to be God.

We are in perfect agreement on those beliefs.

Does the Catholic Church teach that God sunk and died on the cross, and that God lay dead in the grave for 3 days?

[Twilight II]

I just wanted to post a couple of points on this subject.

Gustave is right to point out that there is no record in the scripture of Christ having to deal with "internal" tempation.

Every tempation He dealt with was "external in source".

The only point people point to is Gethsemane, but it does not state there that Christ walking away from the cross was sin. What it does state is Christ submitted Himself to Gods will, showing that Christ fully chose the course ahead.

Then there is the other issue we have.

The definition of "sin".

On the one hand we have a "sinful nature" we are born with.

And God has to deal with that.

We also commit "sin" out of that nature.

So we are sinful by nature.

We sin by nature.

I think discussing those as two seperate issues is healthy and would avoid a lot of confusion.

[John317]

Gustave, see post #477970 in the discussion about "Roosenberg SDA on Daniel 11."

Also please watch the videos:

http://www.islamvschristianity.org/index...mid=1&id=15

These three videos are the very latest from Roosenberg.

I'd really be interested in your "take" on this.

[Gustave]

SDAs do believe as you do, that Jesus was (and is) the God-Man, fully God and fully man. And we believe this One Person Jesus Christ is the God-Man. We don't teach or believe that He is two persons.

[Gustave]

Gustave, see post #477970 in the discussion about "Roosenberg SDA on Daniel 11."

Also please watch the videos:

http://www.islamvschristianity.org/index...d=1&from=10

These three videos are the very latest from Roosenberg.

I'd really be interested in your "take" on this.

I tried to open that URL 3 times...

...404 error / file not found.

I can hold my own against Islam...

...I'm one of the few Christians around who has read the Koran from cover to cover.

Several years ago I had a debate with a Muslim apologist on Sharia.

[BobRyan]

That's just it - Jesus was the God-Man ( fully God & fully Man ) IN the One Person Jesus Christ...

...Adventist groups split the natures so that they say there was the God Jesus and Man Jesus.

...The Incarnation was God became man w/out ceasing to be "God".

...I.E. God 'took on an additional Nature'.

This other reality you are spinning only works if you ignore the text of Phil 2 where Christ "emptied himself" to become found in the form of man - though prior to that He existed in the form of God.

It is the God-man problem that is used by Satan in Matt 4 to tempt Christ. Satan knows that Christ is not supposed to choose to use His God-powers in his role on earth - and so Satan tempts him to do - to choose to do - what He is not supposed to do and so sin against the will of His Father.

The Bible says Christ was indeed "tempted" in fact "tempted in ALL POINTS as we are yet WITHOUT sin" without yielding to temptation and committing sin.

It is not a sin to be tempted - it IS a sin to yield to temptation.

Your own solution is to ignore the Bible as it speaks to this doctrine and pretend that it is this or that "Adventist" that provides the problem for your views.

Your argument is with the text - not with Adventists.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gustave]

I just wanted to post a couple of points on this subject.

Gustave is right to point out that there is no record in the scripture of Christ having to deal with "internal" tempation.

Every tempation He dealt with was "external in source".

The only point people point to is Gethsemane, but it does not state there that Christ walking away from the cross was sin. What it does state is Christ submitted Himself to Gods will, showing that Christ fully chose the course ahead.

Then there is the other issue we have.

The definition of "sin".

On the one hand we have a "sinful nature" we are born with.

And God has to deal with that.

We also commit "sin" out of that nature.

So we are sinful by nature.

We sin by nature.

I think discussing those as two seperate issues is healthy and would avoid a lot of confusion.

[John317]

...I tried to open that URL 3 times...

...404 error / file not found.

Sorry. That was a mistake.

Try this:

http://www.islamvschristianity.org/index...mid=1&id=15

It really isn't about the beliefs of Islam. It is about prophecy-- what Daniel 11 teaches will happen before Christ returns.

If you want to talk about it or reply to it, please post it on the discussion, "Roosenberg SDA on Daniel 11."

[John317]

Valid points, Bob.

[Gustave]

This other reality you are spinning only works if you ignore the text of Phil 2 where Christ "emptied himself" to become found in the form of man - though prior to that He existed in the form of God.

[John317]

Does the Catholic Church teach that God sunk and died on the cross, and that God lay dead in the grave for 3 days?

Originally Posted By: Gustave

The One Person Jesus Christ absolutely died on the cross...

...He was put to death in the flesh and made alive in the spirit.

...By which He went to preach the Gospel to the spirits in Prison.

Yes, the One Person Jesus Christ did die on the cross. Of course.

But did God die? Did Deity die? Jesus has/had two natures, the human and the divine, combined in a single man. (He remains to this day the God-Man.) But did the divine nature die?

Do you agree that the man Jesus did not know everything?

But yet don't you agree that Jesus as God knew and knows everything?

Again, Jesus of Nazareth was 30 years old, yet the divine nature of Christ was without beginning.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

It was at THAT point that Christ opened the gates of heaven...

...Subsequent to His Resurrection the just no longer went to the bosom of Abraham.

Where does the Bible teach this?

Where is "the bosom of Abraham"?

[Gustave]

Yes, the One Person Jesus Christ did die on the cross. Of course.

[Overaged]

Jesus' Apostles see Jesus after the Cross and believe they are seeing Jesus' ghost...

...Instead of Jesus rebuking His Apostles that the dead don't know anything.

...Jesus tells the Apostles to touch Him BECAUSE, Jesus says.

...A ghost does not have flesh and bones.

You can't just pick out one scripture verse, throw it out as meaningless, and insert a different text to take it's place like this. "All Scripture is profitable for doctrine...."

Chap. 34 - Can Our Dead Speak to Us?

The ministration of holy angels, as presented in the Scriptures, is a truth most comforting and precious to every follower of Christ. But the Bible teaching upon this point has been obscured and perverted by the errors of popular theology. The doctrine of natural immortality, first borrowed from the pagan philosophy, and in the darkness of the great apostasy incorporated into the Christian faith, has supplanted the truth, so plainly taught in Scripture, that "the dead know not anything." Multitudes have come to believe that it is spirits of the dead who are the "ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation." And this notwithstanding the testimony of Scripture to the existence of heavenly angels, and their connection with the history of man, before the death of a human being. {GC 551.1}

The doctrine of man's consciousness in death, especially the belief that spirits of the dead return to minister to the living, has prepared the way for modern spiritualism. If the dead are admitted to the presence of God and holy angels, and privileged with knowledge far exceeding what they before possessed, why should they not return to the earth to enlighten and instruct the living? If, as taught by popular theologians, spirits of the dead are hovering about their friends on earth, why should they not be permitted to communicate with them, to warn them against evil, or to comfort

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them in sorrow? How can those who believe in man's consciousness in death reject what comes to them as divine light communicated by glorified spirits? Here is a channel regarded as sacred, through which Satan works for the accomplishment of his purposes. The fallen angels who do his bidding appear as messengers from the spirit world. While professing to bring the living into communication with the dead, the prince of evil exercises his bewitching influence upon their minds. {GC 551.2}

He has power to bring before men the appearance of their departed friends. The counterfeit is perfect; the familiar look, the words, the tone, are reproduced with marvelous distinctness. Many are comforted with the assurance that their loved ones are enjoying the bliss of heaven, and without suspicion of danger, they give ear "to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils." {GC 552.1}

When they have been led to believe that the dead actually return to communicate with them, Satan causes those to appear who went into the grave unprepared. They claim to be happy in heaven and even to occupy exalted positions there, and thus the error is widely taught that no difference is made between the righteous and the wicked. The pretended visitants from the world of spirits sometimes utter cautions and warnings which prove to be correct. Then, as confidence is gained, they present doctrines that directly undermine faith in the Scriptures. With an appearance of deep interest in the well-being of their friends on earth, they insinuate the most dangerous errors. The fact that they state some truths, and are able at times to foretell future events, gives to their statements an appearance of reliability; and their false teachings are accepted by the multitudes as readily, and believed as implicitly, as if they were the most sacred truths of the Bible. The law of God is set aside, the Spirit of grace despised, the blood of the covenant counted an unholy thing. The spirits deny the deity of Christ and place even the Creator on a level with themselves. Thus under a new disguise the great rebel

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still carries on his warfare against God, begun in heaven and for nearly six thousand years continued upon the earth. {GC 552.2}

Many endeavor to account for spiritual manifestations by attributing them wholly to fraud and sleight of hand on the part of the medium. But while it is true that the results of trickery have often been palmed off as genuine manifestations, there have been, also, marked exhibitions of supernatural power. The mysterious rapping with which modern spiritualism began was not the result of human trickery or cunning, but was the direct work of evil angels, who thus introduced one of the most successful of soul-destroying delusions. Many will be ensnared through the belief that spiritualism is a merely human imposture; when brought face to face with manifestations which they cannot but regard as supernatural, they will be deceived, and will be led to accept them as the great power of God. {GC 553.1}

These persons overlook the testimony of the Scriptures concerning the wonders wrought by Satan and his agents. It was by satanic aid that Pharaoh's magicians were enabled to counterfeit the work of God. Paul testifies that before the second advent of Christ there will be similar manifestations of satanic power. The coming of the Lord is to be preceded by "the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness." 2 Thessalonians 2:9,10. And the apostle John, describing the miracle-working power that will be manifested in the last days, declares: "He doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do." Revelation 13:13, 14. No mere impostures are here foretold. Men are deceived by the miracles which Satan's agents have power to do, not which they pretend to do. {GC 553.2}

The prince of darkness, who has so long bent the powers of his mastermind to the work of deception, skillfully adapts his temptations to men of all classes and conditions. To persons of culture and refinement he presents spiritualism in its more refined and intellectual aspects, and thus succeeds in drawing many into his snare. The wisdom which spiritualism imparts is that described by the apostle James, which "descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish." James 3:15. This, however, the great deceiver conceals when concealment will best suit his purpose. He who could appear clothed with the brightness of the heavenly seraphs before Christ in the wilderness of temptation, comes to men in the most attractive manner as an angel of light. He appeals to the reason by the presentation of elevating themes; he delights the fancy with enrapturing scenes; and he enlists the affections by his eloquent portrayals of love and charity. He excites the imagination to lofty flights, leading men to take so great pride in their own wisdom that in their hearts they despise the Eternal One. That mighty being who could take the world's Redeemer to an exceedingly high mountain and bring before Him all the kingdoms of the earth and the glory of them, will present his temptations to men in a manner to pervert the senses of all who are not shielded by divine power. {GC 553.3}

Satan beguiles men now as he beguiled Eve in Eden by flattery, by kindling a desire to obtain forbidden knowledge, by exciting ambition for self-exaltation. It was cherishing these evils that caused his fall, and through them he aims to compass the ruin of men. "Ye shall be as gods," he declares, "knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:5. Spiritualism teaches "that man is the creature of progression; that it is his destiny from his birth to progress, even to eternity, toward the Godhead." And again: "Each mind will judge itself and not another." "The judgment will be right, because it is the judgment of self. .

. . The throne is within you." Said a spiritualistic teacher, as the "spiritual consciousness" awoke within him: "My fellow men, all were unfallen demigods." And another declares: "Any just and perfect being is Christ." {GC 554.1}

Thus, in place of the righteousness and perfection of the

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infinite God, the true object of adoration; in place of the perfect righteousness of His law, the true standard of human attainment, Satan has substituted the sinful, erring nature of man himself as the only object of adoration, the only rule of judgment, or standard of character. This is progress, not upward, but downward. {GC 554.2}

It is a law both of the intellectual and the spiritual nature that by beholding we become changed. The mind gradually adapts itself to the subjects upon which it is allowed to dwell. It becomes assimilated to that which it is accustomed to love and reverence. Man will never rise higher than his standard of purity or goodness or truth. If self is his loftiest ideal, he will never attain to anything more exalted. Rather, he will constantly sink lower and lower. The grace of God alone has power to exalt man. Left to himself, his course must inevitably be downward. {GC 555.1}

To the self-indulgent, the pleasure-loving, the sensual, spiritualism presents itself under a less subtle disguise than to the more refined and intellectual; in its grosser forms they find that which is in harmony with their inclinations. Satan studies every indication of the frailty of human nature, he marks the sins which each individual is inclined to commit, and then he takes care that opportunities shall not be wanting to gratify the tendency to evil. He tempts men to excess in that which is in itself lawful, causing them, through intemperance, to weaken physical, mental, and moral power. He has destroyed and is destroying thousands through the indulgence of the passions, thus brutalizing the entire nature of man. And to complete his work, he declares, through the spirits that "true knowledge places man above all law;" that "whatever is, is right;" that "God doth not condemn;" and that "all sins which are committed are innocent." When the people are thus led to believe that desire is the highest law, that liberty is license, and that man is accountable only to himself, who can wonder that corruption and depravity teem

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on every hand? Multitudes eagerly accept teachings that leave them at liberty to obey the promptings of the carnal heart. The reins of self-control are laid upon the neck of lust, the powers of mind and soul are made subject to the animal propensities, and Satan exultingly sweeps into his net thousands who profess to be followers of Christ. {GC 555.2}

But none need be deceived by the lying claims of spiritualism. God has given the world sufficient light to enable them to discover the snare. As already shown, the theory which forms the very foundation of spiritualism is at war with the plainest statements of Scripture. The Bible declares that the dead know not anything, that their thoughts have perished; they have no part in anything that is done under the sun; they know nothing of the joys or sorrows of those who were dearest to them on earth. {GC 556.1}

Furthermore, God has expressly forbidden all pretended communication with departed spirits. In the days of the Hebrews there was a class of people who claimed, as do the spiritualists of today, to hold communication with the dead. But the "familiar spirits," as these visitants from other worlds were called, are declared by the Bible to be "the spirits of devils." (Compare Numbers 25:1-3; Psalm 106:28; 1 Corinthians 10:20; Revelation 16:14.) The work of dealing with familiar spirits was pronounced an abomination to the Lord, and was solemnly forbidden under penalty of death. Leviticus 19:31; 20:27. The very name of witchcraft is now held in contempt. The claim that men can hold intercourse with evil spirits is regarded as a fable of the Dark Ages. But spiritualism, which numbers its converts by hundreds of thousands, yea, by millions, which has made its way into scientific circles, which has invaded churches, and has found favor in legislative bodies, and even in the courts of kings-- this mammoth deception is but a revival, in a new disguise, of the witchcraft condemned and prohibited of old. {GC 556.2}

If there were no other evidence of the real character of spiritualism, it should be enough for the Christian that the

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spirits make no difference between righteousness and sin, between the noblest and purest of the apostles of Christ and the most corrupt of the servants of Satan. By representing the basest of men as in heaven, and highly exalted there, Satan says to the world: "No matter how wicked you are; no matter whether you believe or disbelieve God and the Bible. Live as you please; heaven is your home." The spiritualist teachers virtually declare: "Everyone that doeth evil is good in the sight of the Lord, and He delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?" Malachi 2:17. Saith the word of God: "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness." Isaiah 5:20. {GC 556.3}

The apostles, as personated by these lying spirits, are made to contradict what they wrote at the dictation of the Holy Spirit when on earth. They deny the divine origin of the Bible, and thus tear away the foundation of the Christian's hope and put out the light that reveals the way to heaven. Satan is making the world believe that the Bible is a mere fiction, or at least a book suited to the infancy of the race, but now to be lightly regarded, or cast aside as obsolete. And to take the place of the word of God he holds out spiritual manifestations. Here is a channel wholly under his control; by this means he can make the world believe what he will. The Book that is to judge him and his followers he puts in the shade, just where he wants it; the Saviour of the world he makes to be no more than a common man. And as the Roman guard that watched the tomb of Jesus spread the lying report which the priests and elders put into their mouths to disprove His resurrection, so do the believers in spiritual manifestations try to make it appear that there is nothing miraculous in the circumstances of our Saviour's life. After thus seeking to put Jesus in the background, they call attention to their own miracles, declaring that these far exceed the works of Christ. {GC 557.1}

It is true that spiritualism is now changing its form and, veiling some of its more objectionable features, is assuming

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a Christian guise. But its utterances from the platform and the press have been before the public for many years, and in these its real character stands revealed. These teachings cannot be denied or hidden. {GC 557.2}

Even in its present form, so far from being more worthy of toleration than formerly, it is really a more dangerous, because a more subtle, deception. While it formerly denounced Christ and the Bible, it now professes to accept both. But the Bible is interpreted in a manner that is pleasing to the unrenewed heart, while its solemn and vital truths are made of no effect. Love is dwelt upon as the chief attribute of God, but it is degraded to a weak sentimentalism, making little distinction between good and evil. God's justice, His denunciations of sin, the requirements of His holy law, are all kept out of sight. The people are taught to regard the Decalogue as a dead letter. Pleasing, bewitching fables captivate the senses and lead men to reject the Bible as the foundation of their faith. Christ is as verily denied as before; but Satan has so blinded the eyes of the people that the deception is not discerned. {GC 558.1}

[Gustave]

My wife and I are headed over the mountain to see my Dad...

...And take in the County Fair on Saturday, heading back on Sunday.

...Didn't want anyone here to think I chickened out and couldn't handle the questions.

Have a good weekend you all.

[Overaged]

Can Our Dead Speak To Us: Part 2

There are few who have any just conception of the deceptive power of spiritualism and the danger of coming under its influence. Many tamper with it merely to gratify their curiosity. They have no real faith in it and would be filled with horror at the thought of yielding themselves to the spirits' control. But they venture upon the forbidden ground, and the mighty destroyer exercises his power upon them against their will. Let them once be induced to submit their minds to his direction, and he holds them captive. It is impossible, in their own strength, to break away from the bewitching, alluring spell. Nothing but the power of God, granted in answer to the earnest prayer of faith, can deliver these ensnared souls. {GC 558.2}

All who indulge sinful traits of character, or willfully cherish a known sin, are inviting the temptations of Satan.

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They separate themselves from God and from the watchcare of His angels; as the evil one presents his deceptions, they are without defense and fall an easy prey. Those who thus place themselves in his power little realize where their course will end. Having achieved their overthrow, the tempter will employ them as his agents to lure others to ruin. {GC 558.3}

Says the prophet Isaiah: "When they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:19, 20. If men had been willing to receive the truth so plainly stated in the Scriptures concerning the nature of man and the state of the dead, they would see in the claims and manifestations of spiritualism the working of Satan with power and signs and lying wonders. But rather than yield the liberty so agreeable to the carnal heart, and renounce the sins which they love, multitudes close their eyes to the light and walk straight on, regardless of warnings, while Satan weaves his snares about them, and they become his prey. "Because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved," therefore "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie." 2 Thessalonians 2:10, 11. {GC 559.1}

Those who oppose the teachings of spiritualism are assailing, not men alone, but Satan and his angels. They have entered upon a contest against principalities and powers and wicked spirits in high places. Satan will not yield one inch of ground except as he is driven back by the power of heavenly messengers. The people of God should be able to meet him, as did our Saviour, with the words: "It is written." Satan can quote Scripture now as in the days of Christ, and he will pervert its teachings to sustain his delusions. Those who would stand in this time of peril must understand for themselves the testimony of the Scriptures.

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{GC 559.2}

Many will be confronted by the spirits of devils personating beloved relatives or friends and declaring the most dangerous heresies. These visitants will appeal to our tenderest sympathies and will work miracles to sustain their pretensions. We must be prepared to withstand them with the Bible truth that the dead know not anything and that they who thus appear are the spirits of devils. {GC 560.1}

Just before us is "the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Revelation 3:10. All whose faith is not firmly established upon the word of God will be deceived and overcome. Satan "works with all deceivableness of unrighteousness" to gain control of the children of men, and his deceptions will continually increase. But he can gain his object only as men voluntarily yield to his temptations. Those who are earnestly seeking a knowledge of the truth and are striving to purify their souls through obedience, thus doing what they can to prepare for the conflict, will find, in the God of truth, a sure defense. "Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee" (verse 10), is the Saviour's promise. He would sooner send every angel out of heaven to protect His people than leave one soul that trusts in Him to be overcome by Satan. {GC 560.2}

The prophet Isaiah brings to view the fearful deception which will come upon the wicked, causing them to count themselves secure from the judgments of God: "We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves." Isaiah 28:15. In the class here described are included those who in their stubborn impenitence comfort themselves with the assurance that there is to be no punishment for the sinner; that all mankind, it matters not how corrupt, are to be exalted to heaven, to become as the angels of God. But still more emphatically

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are those making a covenant with death and an agreement with hell, who renounce the truths which Heaven has provided as a defense for the righteous in the day of trouble, and accept the refuge of lies offered by Satan in its stead--the delusive pretensions of spiritualism. {GC 560.3}

Marvelous beyond expression is the blindness of the people of this generation. Thousands reject the word of God as unworthy of belief and with eager confidence receive the deceptions of Satan. Skeptics and scoffers denounce the bigotry of those who contend for the faith of prophets and apostles, and they divert themselves by holding up to ridicule the solemn declarations of the Scriptures concerning Christ and the plan of salvation, and the retribution to be visited upon the rejecters of the truth. They affect great pity for minds so narrow, weak, and superstitious as to acknowledge the claims of God and obey the requirements of His law. They manifest as much assurance as if, indeed, they had made a covenant with death and an agreement with hell--as if they had erected an impassable, impenetrable barrier between themselves and the vengeance of God. Nothing can arouse their fears. So fully have they yielded to the tempter, so closely are they united with him, and so thoroughly imbued with his spirit, that they have no power and no inclination to break away from his snare. {GC 561.1}

Satan has long been preparing for his final effort to deceive the world. The foundation of his work was laid by the assurance given to Eve in Eden: "Ye shall not surely die." "In the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:4, 5. Little by little he has prepared the way for his masterpiece of deception in the development of spiritualism. He has not yet reached the full accomplishment of his designs; but it will be reached in the last remnant of time. Says the prophet: "I saw three unclean spirits like frogs; . . . they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth

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unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty." Revelation 16:13, 14. Except those who are kept by the power of God, through faith in His word, the whole world will be swept into the ranks of this delusion. The people are fast being lulled to a fatal security, to be awakened only by the outpouring of the wrath of God. {GC 561.2}

Saith the Lord God: "Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it." Isaiah 28:17, 18. {GC 562.1}

[Overaged]

My wife and I are headed over the mountain to see my Dad...

...And take in the County Fair on Saturday, heading back on Sunday.

...Didn't want anyone here to think I chickened out and couldn't handle the questions.

Have a good weekend you all.

Hey; you have a great time at the fair! And seeing your Dad! You are doing a great job with the questions Gustave; I can see your dedication to what you believe. I personally will be expecting you back.

[BobRyan]

In Phil 2 Christ before taking on the incarnation is "in the form of God"

In Phil 2 we see Christ "emptied himself" to become found in the form of man - though prior to that He existed in the form of God.

[BobRyan]

Acts 7,54

When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit

You expect me to belive that Stephen, being full of the Holy Ghost looked up and actually witnessed the heavens opened and saw Jesus

[BobRyan]

My wife and I are headed over the mountain to see my Dad...

...And take in the County Fair on Saturday, heading back on Sunday.

...Didn't want anyone here to think I chickened out and couldn't handle the questions.

Have a good weekend you all.

Have a nice time. No one accuses you of being chicken. your willingness to come here and discuss your views does you credit sir.

Our only request is that all the details of scripture be allowed to have their weight on any given doctrine.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

But did God die? Did Deity die? Jesus has/had two natures, the human and the divine, combined in a single man. (He remains to this day the God-Man.) But did the divine nature die?

Originally Posted By: Gustave

God the Son DIED...

...Of course our views of what that means is vastly different.

Yes. Jesus Christ is definitely God the Son, and He certainly did die on the cross.

We can also say that God the Son got hungry and needed something to eat, and that God the Son was exhausted in the boat and went to sleep.

Does that mean that God got hungry and had to eat something? Or that God was exhaused and needed sleep?

Do you see the difference?

Jesus was also the Son of man, a human, and it was his human nature that required food and sleep, not God.

It is like when Jesus said, "I don't know," or when it says Jesus was thirty years of age. These have reference to Jesus the man, not Jesus the eternal, all-knowing God of the universe.

What's wonderful to think of, Gustave, is that Jesus is still the God-Man, and He is our elder brother. He is One of us. He still eats and He promised that one day He will eat and drink with us in heaven and on the new earth. I believe that's literal. We will one day sit down at one huge table and Jesus will actually serve us and we will celebrate like no one has ever celebrated anything before!!

[John317]

Do you agree that the man Jesus did not know everything?

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Some of the "emptying" involved loosing some information...

...Some things the Son was not intended to reveal as per the Father.

I agree with you. He also lived on earth as our example, and as our example, he didn't have access to any powers that we don't have access to. He relied on His heavenly Father the same way we must rely on God. He refused to use his divine powers for His own sake or in order to resist temptations.

He grew up and developed in His knowledge the same way other humans grow and develope. Christ didn't know everything all at once but He grew in knowledge and wisdom. I'm not saying that He was just like all other humans in every way. He was pure and absolutely sinless, yet he was in many ways an ordinary human being.

[skyblue888]

John, you and I usually agree on this topic but here you just said something that I am not sure I can agree with. "Yet he was in many ways an ordinary human being." Heb.2:17 says that in all things, not just many things, He was made like his brethren.

"Wherefore, in all things it behooved him to be made like his brethren..." Heb.2:17.

sky

[John317]

I mean that he was not rebellious like others and he was completely obedient to his parents, etc. His character was always perfect. DA 68, 69

Also, I mean that His temptations were much more powerful and Satan worked much more to cause Him to fall than he works to make us fall. DA 71