Is Jesus really the Sun god?

[cardw]

I know I talk a lot about evidence. So let's look at Malachi 4:2. This is considered to be a prophecy about Jesus. It states

Quote:

But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and leap like calves released from the stall.

Notice the spelling. It does not say son, but sun.

Let's look at the symbol for Horus within Egyptian mythology.

This is the Sun with Wings as it appears on the upper casing of a temple door. This is the symbol of Horus the Egyptian Sun God.

Horus is the son of the Virgin Isis. The wings are symbols of how a god travels from the heavens to earth.

It was in the the late 18th dynasty that Horus began to be referred to as a Savior in the form of Aten and Egyptian polytheism was transferred from the equality of gods to having Aten being treated as being over all the other gods. This is considered the first instance of monotheism by many scholars and you can see the transference within this hymn stating that Aten is not only the Lord of the Egyptians, but he is the Lord of all nations and peoples.

In this hymn to Aten you can see influences that have been said to have inspired Psalms 104

Quote:

How manifold it is, what thou hast made!

They are hidden from the face (of man).

O sole god, like whom there is no other!

Thou didst create the world according to thy desire,

Whilst thou wert alone: All men, cattle, and wild beasts,

Whatever is on earth, going upon (its) feet,

And what is on high, flying with its wings.

The countries of Syria and Nubia, the land of Egypt,

Thou settest every man in his place,

Thou suppliest their necessities:

Everyone has his food, and his time of life is reckoned.

Their tongues are separate in speech,

And their natures as well;

Their skins are distinguished,

As thou distinguishest the foreign peoples.

Thou makest a Nile in the underworld,

Thou bringest forth as thou desirest

To maintain the people (of Egypt)

According as thou madest them for thyself,

The lord of all of them, wearying (himself) with them,

The lord of every land, rising for them,

The Aton of the day, great of majesty.

There is evidence that Israel was worshipping the sun and there was a battle between competing priesthoods as evidenced by this text in Ezekiel.

Quote:

Ezekiel (c. 586 BCE) related that the Israelites/Hebrews/Jews continued to worship the sun, as at 8:16:

"And he brought me into the inner court of the house of the LORD; and behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men, with their backs to the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east, worshiping the sun toward the east."

In this scripture, it is not just the common people but the very priests themselves who are engaging in sun worship.

It becomes apparent that many Christians considered Jesus the actual sun because you have Tertullian in the 1st century and Augustine in the 5th having to write apologetics explaining that Christians weren't Sun worshippers or condemning Christians who were worshipping the sun as Jesus or the son of God.

Tertullian writes the following...

Quote:

Tertullian referred to Paul's comments at 1 Cor. 15:21 and compared the "glory of the sun" to that of Christ:

In like manner does he take examples from the heavenly bodies: "There is one glory of the sun" (that is, of Christ), "and another glory of the moon" (that is, of the Church), "and another glory of the stars" (in other words, of the seed of Abraham).

When Tertullian initially denied that Christians worshiped the sun he was confronted with evidence and his response to the pagans was, well so do you. Evidently the pagans realized that the sun wasn't actually god before the Christians did.

There are numerous references to Christ in the New Testament as having characteristics of the Sun including his ascension where he shown like the sun.

In Egyptian mythology Horus would take his Sun like power to the land of the dead and bring life. They knew that the sun provided life and healing. They projected the greatest power they could observe onto God's son or sun.

Plato states that Socrates didn't call the Sun, God himself, but the son of god. To the Greeks the great creator god of the universe was a mystery or the unknown god. Jesus or Christ would be the manifestation of god in the flesh as a sun with healing in its wings coming to earth and going to the realm of the dead. You find this motif in the New Testament in numerous places.

Saint Augustine was probably the most influential church fathers in the formation of Christian doctrine. Saint Augustine was a neoplatonist and would certainly bring many of Plato's and Socrate's ideas of the divine with him.

There are so many more parallels to Jesus and the Sun both within the bible and within early church father's writings that to include them all would take hundreds of pages.

Jesus is not this unique idea that comes out of nowhere like Christian theologians would like you to believe. Christianity was a syncretic belief system that emerged in its present form by force once Rome took it as its own. You would have no Seventh Day Adventist Church without Roman Catholics. Many of the doctrines that Seventh Day Adventist hold were forged by the blood of pagans and heretics as Rome, by force, not spiritual insight, formed the major doctrines of the Christian Church. They rewrote the story and suppressed all others. And even they could not hide all the origins even in the New Testament. They simply reinterpreted them to remove the Egyptian, Babylonian and gnostic origins of the Jesus story.

[John317]

The Bible condemns sun worship in the strongest terms:

Ezekiel 8:9-18

And he said to me, "Go in, and see the vile abominations that they are committing here." [10] So I went in and saw. And there, engraved on the wall all around, was every form of creeping things and loathsome beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel. [11] And before them stood seventy men of the elders of the house of Israel, with Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan standing among them. Each had his censer in his hand, and the smoke of the cloud of incense went up. [12] Then he said to me, "Son of man, have you seen what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the dark, each in his room of pictures? For they say, 'The Lord does not see us, the Lord has forsaken the land.' " [13] He said also to me, "You will see still greater abominations that they commit."

[14] Then he brought me to the entrance of the north gate of the house of the Lord, and behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz. [15] Then he said to me, "Have you seen this, O son of man? You will see still greater abominations than these."

[16] And he brought me into the inner court of the house of the Lord. And behold, at the entrance of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men, with their backs to the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east, worshiping the sun toward the east. [17] Then he said to me, "Have you seen this, O son of man? Is it too light a thing for the house of Judah to commit the abominations that they commit here, that they should fill the land with violence and provoke me still further to anger? Behold, they put the branch to their nose. [18] Therefore I will act in wrath. My eye will not spare, nor will I have pity. And though they cry in my ears with a loud voice, I will not hear them."

The first three commandments in the Decalogue prohibit all false worship and all idols:

Exodus 20:1-7

And God spoke all these words, saying,

[2] "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

[3] "You shall have no other gods before me.

[4] "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. [5] You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, [6] but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

[7] "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain."

Jesus Himself said, Matthew 4:10

Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written,

" 'You shall worship the Lord your God

and him only shall you serve.' "

1 John 5:21

Little children, keep yourselves from idols.

[joeb]

I would just like to point out one piece of evidence that falsifies the claim that Jesus was the Sun god.

God gave very explicit directions for the construction of the sanctuary constructed by the Isrealites during their sojourn in the wilderness. He went so far as to instruct Moses as to how it was to be oriented on compass points whenever it was set up after a move.

The courtyard of the sanctuary was 100 x 50 cubits in size and long side was oriented on the east-west axis of the compass. The only entry into the courtyard was on east end, and the sanctuary itself was on the west end. Thus to enter the sanctuary courtyard and face the altar of burnt offerings, the laver, and the sanctuary itself so you could worship/offer_a_sacrifice_for_sin you had to be moving, and/or, facing, west. That is the opposite direction all sun god worshippers face during their worship. They all face east, towards the rising sun.

God intentionally set up the orientation of the sanctuary, and the people who worshipped there, so that worshippers of Jehovah would be turning their backs to the sun god while they worshipped. This is significant both spiritually and psychologically for God told the Isrealites in the 10 commandments that they were to bow down to, and worship, no one but Him.

[Overaged]

I would just like to point out one piece of evidence that falsifies the claim that Jesus was the Sun god.

God gave very explicit directions for the construction of the sanctuary constructed by the Isrealites during their sojourn in the wilderness. He went so far as to instruct Moses as to how it was to be oriented on compass points whenever it was set up after a move.

The courtyard of the sanctuary was 100 x 50 cubits in size and long side was oriented on the east-west axis of the compass. The only entry into the courtyard was on east end, and the sanctuary itself was on the west end. Thus to enter the sanctuary courtyard and face the altar of burnt offerings, the laver, and the sanctuary itself so you could worship/offer_a_sacrifice_for_sin you had to be moving, and/or, facing, west. That is the opposite direction all sun god worshippers face during their worship. They all face east, towards the rising sun.

God intentionally set up the orientation of the sanctuary, and the people who worshipped there, so that worshippers of Jehovah would be turning their backs to the sun god while they worshipped. This is significant both spiritually and psychologically for God told the Isrealites in the 10 commandments that they were to bow down to, and worship, no one but Him.

[cardw]

Quoting the bible does not tell us what the early Christians believed. It only tells us what one sect of Jews believed. You have Josiah, claiming to be the greatest of all Jewish Kings, killing the priests of other sects on their own alters to defile them.

Of course the winning side would write the history.

And yet you have all kinds of solar references still in the texts of the Old Testament. You have clear Babylonian, Persian, and certainly Egyptian influences throughout the Old Testament.

We have King Hezekiah praying to God for healing and then God makes the Sun go backwards. This is a clear attack against Sun worshippers proving that the god of the Jews was more powerful than the Sun. Except God didn't bother to tell them that the Sun doesn't go around the earth.

Chaldean and Egyptian astronomers of Old Testament times knew that the earth was only one of the planets in a solar system that had at its center our sun. This is why they were able to develop a calendar of 364 days. They were well versed in all the movements of the earth, moon, and stars.

The researches of archaeologists in the last few years have thrown much light on the Egyptian Mysteries. Among the ceremonies of that ancient people was one called the Procession of Shrines, which is mentioned in the Rosetta stone, and depicted on the temple walls. One of these shrines was an ark which was carried in procession by the priests, who supported it on their shoulders by staves passing through metal rings. It was thus brought into the Temple and deposited on a stand or altar, that the ceremonies prescribed in the ritual might be performed before it. The contents of these arks were various, but always of a mystical character. Sometimes the ark would contain symbols of Life and Stability; sometimes the sacred beetle, the symbol of the Sun; and there was always a representation of two figures of the goddess Theme or Truth and Justice, which overshadowed the ark with their wings. These coincidences of the Egyptian and Hebrew arks must have been more than accidental.

One finds Cherubim in many different ark like illustrations on Egyptian tombs and we have strong evidence of a monotheistic emergence of an all powerful sun god in late Egyptian periods. This picture from Thebes shows the Egyptians carrying Osiris the sun god in an ark much like the Israelites carried their ark containing god into battle.

The parallels are so numerous that it takes much more room than I have to list them all.

[cardw]

I would just like to point out one piece of evidence that falsifies the claim that Jesus was the Sun god.

God gave very explicit directions for the construction of the sanctuary constructed by the Isrealites during their sojourn in the wilderness. He went so far as to instruct Moses as to how it was to be oriented on compass points whenever it was set up after a move.

The courtyard of the sanctuary was 100 x 50 cubits in size and long side was oriented on the east-west axis of the compass. The only entry into the courtyard was on east end, and the sanctuary itself was on the west end. Thus to enter the sanctuary courtyard and face the altar of burnt offerings, the laver, and the sanctuary itself so you could worship/offer_a_sacrifice_for_sin you had to be moving, and/or, facing, west. That is the opposite direction all sun god worshippers face during their worship. They all face east, towards the rising sun.

God intentionally set up the orientation of the sanctuary, and the people who worshipped there, so that worshippers of Jehovah would be turning their backs to the sun god while they worshipped. This is significant both spiritually and psychologically for God told the Isrealites in the 10 commandments that they were to bow down to, and worship, no one but Him.

[cardw]

It's interesting that Seventh Day Adventists easily accept that Christmas, the winter solstice, has a pagan origin, but they don't consider the possibility that the whole thing has pagan origins.

When we study Constantine we find a pagan ruler that decides to unite all the religious factions under one united Catholic Church. It is through a system of violent and political force that the Christian Church is formed.

That is why there is no extra Biblical history about Jesus. It doesn't exist because Jesus didn't do all those things.

It is entirely possible that Jesus or Christ (the anointed one which could point to any number of ancient gods) was simply a Jewish philosopher and teacher or spiritual ghost messiah that was combined with the Sun worship ceremonies and beliefs prevalent in the ancient world.

This provides a much more likely series of events based on what we now know of the ancient world and the 1st century.

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: joeb

I would just like to point out one piece of evidence that falsifies the claim that Jesus was the Sun god.

God gave very explicit directions for the construction of the sanctuary constructed by the Isrealites during their sojourn in the wilderness. He went so far as to instruct Moses as to how it was to be oriented on compass points whenever it was set up after a move.

The courtyard of the sanctuary was 100 x 50 cubits in size and long side was oriented on the east-west axis of the compass. The only entry into the courtyard was on east end, and the sanctuary itself was on the west end. Thus to enter the sanctuary courtyard and face the altar of burnt offerings, the laver, and the sanctuary itself so you could worship/offer_a_sacrifice_for_sin you had to be moving, and/or, facing, west. That is the opposite direction all sun god worshippers face during their worship. They all face east, towards the rising sun.

God intentionally set up the orientation of the sanctuary, and the people who worshipped there, so that worshippers of Jehovah would be turning their backs to the sun god while they worshipped. This is significant both spiritually and psychologically for God told the Isrealites in the 10 commandments that they were to bow down to, and worship, no one but Him.

The fact that it is the opposite only confirms the conflict between various Jewish sects. They were doing very similar ceremonies. The conflict was over the location. The only reason one won out over the other was through violence not inspiration.

Huh? Every Torah, every Bible translation says the same thing. The different sects of the Jews didn't use different Torahs. They all had their own set of man made laws they subscribed to, and put above the Torah, but they all used the same written Torah. There is, and always has been, only one written Torah for Jews and that's where I came up with my information. You know, the first 5 books of the Bible.

See the following link for a more defined answer.

http://www.utom.org/articles/topics/Articles/Howmanytorahs.pdf

[Overaged]

It's interesting that Seventh Day Adventists easily accept that Christmas, the winter solstice, has a pagan origin, but they don't consider the possibility that the whole thing has pagan origins.

When we study Constantine we find a pagan ruler that decides to unite all the religious factions under one united Catholic Church. It is through a system of violent and political force that the Christian Church is formed.

That is why there is no extra Biblical history about Jesus. It doesn't exist because Jesus didn't do all those things.

It is entirely possible that Jesus or Christ (the anointed one which could point to any number of ancient gods) was simply a Jewish philosopher and teacher or spiritual ghost messiah that was combined with the Sun worship ceremonies and beliefs prevalent in the ancient world.

This provides a much more likely series of events based on what we now know of the ancient world and the 1st century.

You sure have a lot of faith cardw. Where did you get it from?

[fccool]

I'm not sure if it is derived solely from Sun Worship. One can argue for a mixture of Astrology concepts and understanding that eventually solidified symbolically through the language of NT. The sun on the cross is fairly old concept. The 666 as the number derived from the magic squares as the sum of all numbers depicting the sun, and heavy use of ancient numerology is actually depicted in magic numbers which both encoded and interpreted certain mysteries to the initiated and ruling class of the priesthood and the religion which shifted from one form into other and actually used understanding of science to rule the ignorant masses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_cross

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus#Historic_understanding (see Heb. 13:8 and Venus symbol, Ancient Greeks called the morning star Φωσφόρος, Phosphoros (Latinized Phosphorus)

There's a trail of transforming certain symbols that would shift meaning and understanding. I don't believe that the initiated actually worshiped these bodies, as they possessed a documented scientific knowledge of astronomy, human psychology, and politics, that they've used to their advantage. So, to the uninitiated it was fed as a religion, which in reality only existed for political purposes as myths that shrouded the true meaning of these things.

Much of modern concepts of astronomy, geometry, and math take their meaning in such occult ancient worlds. These went from antiquity to our everyday use. It does not mean that people who use them are into occult.

Christianity is a complex religion from standpoint that it went through several phases and changes. Originally it took Jewish and other ancient concepts and presented them in different light. It was unpopular. The ideals were confronting and deconstructing every established religious order, as it gave people autonomy, and was the very reason why it was met with resistance and persecution. It also took the sacrificial ideas and put end to them in terms of them being literal ideas, and instead made them a philosophical and almost psychotherapy concept. It took back the ideas of interconnected community and pretty much flung it into the face of contemporary "what's mine is mine" and "divide and rule" type of life. It was not a systematic theology as we find it today. It was a way of life that reflected certain ideals. These ideals were not derived from "verse-by-verse" interpretation of Bible, as we have it today. These ideas were derived from concepts portrayed in person of Christ (whether He was real, or not).

Then it took another turn once it was popularized, and used by the state to unify people under a state religion. In such unification, many forced compromises and modifications were made. Creeds and oaths were introduced. The Biblical canon was formed. It turned into systematic theology rather than way of life. It was turned into a mystery religion where initiated fused it with ritualistic astrology and mystery, to give it a new meaning. Instead of it being liberating through concepts and principles, it once again was a system of dos and don'ts supported by psychological pressures of guilt, fear, and ritualistic mind programming and control.

The ideas behind "following the way" was lost and reduced to sets of rules and creeds. The communities were reduced to buildings with hard wooden benches facing forward to hear one man dictate the dogma of the clergy. Ritualistic concepts were once again inducing control through mystery understanding of psychology, astronomy, and human behavior as it relates to these concepts and ideas, and were used as empire-building and oppression tools.

As it exists today, Christianity is opposite of what it claims to be. That's why it is confusing to many people like cardw.

[cardw]

Huh? Every Torah, every Bible translation says the same thing. The different sects of the Jews didn't use different Torahs. They all had their own set of man made laws they subscribed to, and put above the Torah, but they all used the same written Torah. There is, and always has been, only one written Torah for Jews and that's where I came up with my information. You know, the first 5 books of the Bible.

See the following link for a more defined answer.

http://www.utom.org/articles/topics/Articles/Howmanytorahs.pdf

I'm talking about ancient sects of Jews. The conquerers who wrote the Bible said they followed false gods and wrote all kinds of propaganda to shore up their version of national worship. You have all this praise for Josiah because he is restoring the proper worship and he is called the greatest of all the Jewish Kings and the only Kings most people know about today are David and Solomon.

And yet when Josiah sacrifices the priests on their own alters the alters are defiled by human sacrifice. So obviously they aren't sacrificing humans there. They are doing animal sacrifices just like Josiah.

It is obvious that the Jews are worshipping the sun even from the Bible. The same kind of monotheistic conflict happened in Egypt except the monotheists lost out.

Even in Jesus day you have the Samaritans. They were still debating about the location of where to worship.

[cardw]

I'm not sure if it is derived solely from Sun Worship. One can argue for a mixture of Astrology concepts and understanding that eventually solidified symbolically through the language of NT. The sun on the cross is fairly old concept. The 666 as the number derived from the magic squares as the sum of all numbers depicting the sun, and heavy use of ancient numerology is actually depicted in magic numbers which both encoded and interpreted certain mysteries to the initiated and ruling class of the priesthood and the religion which shifted from one form into other and actually used understanding of science to rule the ignorant masses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_cross

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus#Historic_understanding (see Heb. 13:8 and Venus symbol, Ancient Greeks called the morning star Φωσφόρος, Phosphoros (Latinized Phosphorus)

It is true that Christianity is not just sun worship. There is a lot of Astrological theology from many sources.

When I look at the evidence it appears that Christianity emerged from the trade unions of the day. These would be the pre-cursors to the Masons. This would include Chaldeans, Jewish Mystics, Egyptian Mystics, Indian mystery religions, and a host of secret societies that had no national boundaries, but were essentially hired to build large scale religious and national projects throughout the ages.

And you are exactly right that this was used to control the ignorant masses. And it's still being used to control the ignorant masses.

I can accept the psychological and archetypal under pinnings of much of the mystical aspects of Christian belief. The problems occur when people take these literally. The whole sacrificial ideation with its substitutionary blood letting certainly has pagan origins and goes back thousands of years to iron age mentalities.

It is also very creative and fascinating, but that as far as it goes for me. There is no inclination at all to worship any of these ideas or to try and incorporate them into my life.

It seems much more logical to allow real life reveal what works and what doesn't. And it would be nice if we stopped claiming to know things we can't possibly know.

[joeb]

I'm talking about ancient sects of Jews. The conquerers who wrote the Bible said they followed false gods and wrote all kinds of propaganda to shore up their version of national worship. You have all this praise for Josiah because he is restoring the proper worship and he is called the greatest of all the Jewish Kings and the only Kings most people know about today are David and Solomon.

And yet when Josiah sacrifices the priests on their own alters the alters are defiled by human sacrifice. So obviously they aren't sacrificing humans there. They are doing animal sacrifices just like Josiah.

It is obvious that the Jews are worshipping the sun even from the Bible. The same kind of monotheistic conflict happened in Egypt except the monotheists lost out.

Even in Jesus day you have the Samaritans. They were still debating about the location of where to worship.

Well, you certainly have a lot of faith in your theories and in man's wisdom. I don't, so we will just have to agree to disagree. I cannot accept your basic premises, and you cannot accept mine, so there is no beginning point for discussion because we both believe the other to be talking nonsense.

It's a very hopeless world to live in when there is nothing larger than yourself or your theories. I've been there and done that. It wasn't a pleasant place to be and I'm not going back. I know God through experience with Him and His word. I believe Him and trust Him. I trust nothing that is born of human philosophy only, such as your ideas here, because human ideas, no matter how logical they can sound are proven wrong every day.

You believe your ideas, but you cannot prove you're right. You have nothing to prove your ideas are any more correct than the flat earth theory. All you can appeal to for authority is more speculation like your own.

I cannot prove mine to you either, but I have a book to look to that I know in my own heart comes from God. I'm going to trust it, not to humanity. The God I know is powerful enough to make sure it is trustworthy. I rest my faith in that.

[John317]

Except God didn't bother to tell them that the Sun doesn't go around the earth.

God could have informed people of all kinds of scientific facts about the world and the universe, but why would He do that?

We still talk about the "setting sun" and the beautiful "sunset." That's because we describe things as we experience them, not as they are objectively or scientifically. The Bible often does the same.

[joeb]

I'm not sure if it is derived solely from Sun Worship. One can argue for a mixture of Astrology concepts and understanding that eventually solidified symbolically through the language of NT. The sun on the cross is fairly old concept. The 666 as the number derived from the magic squares as the sum of all numbers depicting the sun, and heavy use of ancient numerology is actually depicted in magic numbers which both encoded and interpreted certain mysteries to the initiated and ruling class of the priesthood and the religion which shifted from one form into other and actually used understanding of science to rule the ignorant masses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_cross

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus#Historic_understanding (see Heb. 13:8 and Venus symbol, Ancient Greeks called the morning star Φωσφόρος, Phosphoros (Latinized Phosphorus)

There's a trail of transforming certain symbols that would shift meaning and understanding. I don't believe that the initiated actually worshiped these bodies, as they possessed a documented scientific knowledge of astronomy, human psychology, and politics, that they've used to their advantage. So, to the uninitiated it was fed as a religion, which in reality only existed for political purposes as myths that shrouded the true meaning of these things.

Much of modern concepts of astronomy, geometry, and math take their meaning in such occult ancient worlds. These went from antiquity to our everyday use. It does not mean that people who use them are into occult.

Christianity is a complex religion from standpoint that it went through several phases and changes. Originally it took Jewish and other ancient concepts and presented them in different light. It was unpopular. The ideals were confronting and deconstructing every established religious order, as it gave people autonomy, and was the very reason why it was met with resistance and persecution. It also took the sacrificial ideas and put end to them in terms of them being literal ideas, and instead made them a philosophical and almost psychotherapy concept. It took back the ideas of interconnected community and pretty much flung it into the face of contemporary "what's mine is mine" and "divide and rule" type of life. It was not a systematic theology as we find it today. It was a way of life that reflected certain ideals. These ideals were not derived from "verse-by-verse" interpretation of Bible, as we have it today. These ideas were derived from concepts portrayed in person of Christ (whether He was real, or not).

Then it took another turn once it was popularized, and used by the state to unify people under a state religion. In such unification, many forced compromises and modifications were made. Creeds and oaths were introduced. The Biblical canon was formed. It turned into systematic theology rather than way of life. It was turned into a mystery religion where initiated fused it with ritualistic astrology and mystery, to give it a new meaning. Instead of it being liberating through concepts and principles, it once again was a system of dos and don'ts supported by psychological pressures of guilt, fear, and ritualistic mind programming and control.

The ideas behind "following the way" was lost and reduced to sets of rules and creeds. The communities were reduced to buildings with hard wooden benches facing forward to hear one man dictate the dogma of the clergy. Ritualistic concepts were once again inducing control through mystery understanding of psychology, astronomy, and human behavior as it relates to these concepts and ideas, and were used as empire-building and oppression tools.

As it exists today, Christianity is opposite of what it claims to be. That's why it is confusing to many people like cardw.

You're pointing to sources outside of Christianity to say what Christianity is? Why?

Christianity is no different today than it was in the days of Jesus and the apostles. It was, and still is, putting Jesus first in your life and following Him everywhere He leads. Nothing has changed. It's still your personal relationship with God that saves you. You don't believe that, read Matthew 25. Jesus tells the goats, I never knew you, which proves, they never knew Him either. They knew someone else.

[John317]

I'm not sure if it is derived solely from Sun Worship.

I thought you're a follower of Christ, a Seventh-day Adventist.

[John317]

joeb, I want to welcome you to ClubAdventist. Thanks for deciding to come here and participate in our discussions. I hope we see many of your posts and that you receive a blessing from your experiences here. John

[joeb]

joeb, I want to welcome you to ClubAdventist. Thanks for deciding to come here and participate in our discussions. I hope we see many of your posts and that you receive a blessing from your experiences here. John

Thanks, John.

[Overaged]

joeb, I want to welcome you to ClubAdventist. Thanks for deciding to come here and participate in our discussions. I hope we see many of your posts and that you receive a blessing from your experiences here. John

[cardw]

Well, you certainly have a lot of faith in your theories and in man's wisdom. I don't, so we will just have to agree to disagree. I cannot accept your basic premises, and you cannot accept mine, so there is no beginning point for discussion because we both believe the other to be talking nonsense.

It's a very hopeless world to live in when there is nothing larger than yourself or your theories.

[Overaged]

This is the typical judge your opponent as egocentric and hopeless instead of addressing facts.

Well now you have got us. We are cornered. If we dare to venture an opinin about your ideas, we are "judgmental."

I wonder? Would that be the Bible version of "judgmental" that you refer to or some other version?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Except God didn't bother to tell them that the Sun doesn't go around the earth.

God could have informed people of all kinds of scientific facts about the world and the universe, but why would He do that?

Because it wasn't god talking to them. If they had such great insights into the mind of God you would at least think they would have knowledge equal to their neighbors.

I mean stop and think here. How do fundamentalist totalitarians approach a problem when they aren't smart enough to dialog their way out of it. They use force.

And this is exactly what the Jews did and they said that their god told them to do it. And when they lost they came up with some thing that the king or somebody did to make god mad. And sometimes it was some obscure thing that they had to go searching for.

Or Moses had to keep his hands up so god would help them win the battle. And when he got tired he had two guys hold his hands up.

How much more ridiculous do you have to get before you see that this is iron age, ignorant, religious megalomaniacs making this stuff up?

What is sad is that so many people take this stuff so seriously.

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: joeb

Well, you certainly have a lot of faith in your theories and in man's wisdom. I don't, so we will just have to agree to disagree. I cannot accept your basic premises, and you cannot accept mine, so there is no beginning point for discussion because we both believe the other to be talking nonsense.

It's a very hopeless world to live in when there is nothing larger than yourself or your theories.

This is the typical judge your opponent as egocentric and hopeless instead of addressing facts.

Originally Posted By: joeb

I've been there and done that. It wasn't a pleasant place to be and I'm not going back.

Well in case you haven't noticed. I'm not you. Talk about egocentric. You seem to think that just because you have a particular experience that everyone has the same one.

Originally Posted By: joeb

I know God through experience with Him and His word. I believe Him and trust Him. I trust nothing that is born of human philosophy only, such as your ideas here, because human ideas, no matter how logical they can sound are proven wrong every day.

This is the same thing that Mormons use to justify their illogical beliefs even when it has been proven that the source Papyri that Joseph Smith used to translate into "Book of Abraham" are nothing more than a burial list.

And I quote from a Mormon apologist...

Quote:

However there is a more fundamental point. If the missing papyrus rolls showed up tomorrow, and didn't mention Abraham anywhere, that would mean nothing. Joseph Smith used the term "translate" very loosely. It is entirely possible that when he looked at the ancient Egyptian Papyrus, God chose to reveal to his mind words written anciently by His prophet Abraham, since those words were related to the Egyptian text before Joseph. This is how Joseph Smith "translated" the Bible after all. Joseph looked at a related text, while God miraculously restored the words of His ancient prophets. If this is the case, then all the arguments about the ancient papyrus rolls are irrelevant! No argument based upon them can ever show that Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God. This is the key point, and perhaps the most important one to remember.

This means that there is no evidence, however strong, that could convince him that Joseph Smith was not a prophet. And gives his faith reason why...

Quote:

I am much more interested in the many mysterious and wonderful insights that the gospel has to offer than I am in arguing with people who aren't going to believe the gospel if Moroni stood before them and hit them over the head with the golden plates.

You would never accept his reasons for believing in Joseph Smith and yet you use the same type of "reasoning" to justify your faith in the Bible.

That is the true reason these dialogs go no where.

There is no possible evidence, however strong, that could convince you that Christianity was formed just like every other man made institution.

You're absolutely correct. I have a strong faith in God. I don't deny it. I just wish you were as honest and would admit that there is no argument that would ever convince you that my point of view is correct.

I've read a few of your posts and you always argue any evidence for God isn't evidence. You make assertion after assertion and support them with nothing but speculation. You can't prove what you assert, but you make the assertions anyway. You're as close-minded on the subject as I am, only from the opposite perspective. Everything you say of me, is true also of you.

With this I leave this thread. There's no discussion possible when neither side can even begin to accept the other person's basic premises. You know that just as well as I do. That's not judgmental. It's common sense. You can call it whatever you want, but accusations don't make reality.

No hard feelings, it's just not necessary to beat a dead horse to know it's not going to move.

[Overaged]

With this I leave this thread. There's no discussion possible when neither side can even begin to accept the other person's basic premises.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

This is the typical judge your opponent as egocentric and hopeless instead of addressing facts.

Well now you have got us. We are cornered. If we dare to venture an opinin about your ideas, we are "judgmental."

I wonder? Would that be the Bible version of "judgmental" that you refer to or some other version?

Not everything is about you.