Is Jesus really the Sun god?

[Pockey]

See this bothers me to no end. God told them to do it. How many people are sitting in prison right now for killing someone cause they claim "God" told them too. We don't defend them. We label them mentally ill.

Did Christ tell the crusaders to kill all the people that they killed?

On that token - when the Vikings killed Christian priests for building temples over top of their holy places - where they justified? Maybe Odin told them to do it.

Most such killing is done out of pride and political manuvering. But because its a king or a priest its"ok". Its accepted.

I think its an excuse.

It bothers me too when people claim that God made them do something when in reality God may never have asked them to do anything. Just because someone claims that their actions were in God's name doesn't make it so, but they may in fact be taking His name in vain. The devil makes a counterfeit for every truth. However we can be reassured by the living word that God had His reasons and we know from His word that He is merciful, just and loves us.

[M. T. Cross]

Sid, I guess this gets to the heart of how I see things.

First let me state that in no way am I questioning your personal view of the Bible. If you have found your truth within its pages, who am I to question that.

However. After a number of times reading the Bible I question it being anything more than a history book. A mythological one. Much like the Celtic Myth, Nordic Myth,or Greek Myths.

These myths have a root in history, a finger in truth, and a lot of lessons that we can learn to become better people, more productive and live more in harmony.

The more I have read the Bible the more I am bothered by the fact that we are expected to believe it is THE TRUTH, simply because it says it is! If the Almighty actually exists and created us with this intellect - then I think it would be insulting to him to not question, to just blindly accept a book written thousands of years ago as the WHOLE TRUTH. If that is the case - why did he give us these intellects?

[John317]

Just out of curiosity, (that is, if you don't mind answering), are you in northern, central, or southern California? As you can see, I'm in southern.

[cardw]

Here are a couple of links that give extensive documentation for the idea that Jesus is a combination of various solar and mystical religions combined by Constantine based on gnostic personifications of philosophical principles based on astrological myths and astrological observations of the night sky.

This first link contains a history of this view that goes back to the 1500s.

And this list includes the great theologian, philosopher, nobel peace prize winner, scientist, and physician Albert Schweitzer

Quote:

The Jesus of Nazareth who came forward publicly as the Messiah, who preached the ethic of the Kingdom of God, who founded the Kingdom of Heaven upon earth, and died to give His work its final consecration, never had any existence.

He is a figure designed by rationalism, endowed with life by liberalism, and clothed by modern theology in an historical garb.

– Albert Schweitzer

Scholars who didn't believe Jesus existed

Here is another link that walks you through the reasons we have the zodiac and its relationship to ancient science. It is very well done and animates how the ancients saw the night sky. This will help explain why astrological events around the sun and moon are crucial in understanding ancient religions.

Primer on Astrotheology

There is a wealth of information on these problems and it takes some time to go through.

This attitude that the Bible is the only standard of truth, and I'm going to prove my faithfulness by not reading anything that the devil has to say, is an egocentric copout.

If you aren't willing to even read the arguments and the evidence then you have no excuse for your ignorance.

[John317]

]If the Almighty actually exists and created us with this intellect - then I think it would be insulting to him to not question, to just blindly accept a book written thousands of years ago as the WHOLE TRUTH. If that is the case - why did he give us these intellects?

Good point and I agree.

In fact, the Bible itself supports such a conclusion.

The answer is that if people are sincerely looking for Truth, God will help them find it.

Jesus said, John 7:17

If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.

John 1:9

The true light [Jesus Christ], which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.

John 12:32

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

God certainly did not give humans an amazing brain, only to kick them down for using it.

[cardw]

It bothers me too when people claim that God made them do something when in reality God may never have asked them to do anything. Just because someone claims that their actions were in God's name doesn't make it so, but they may in fact be taking His name in vain. The devil makes a counterfeit for every truth. However we can be reassured by the living word that God had His reasons and we know from His word that He is merciful, just and loves us.

And yet the Old Testament is full of people doing atrocious things claiming that God told them to do it!

And the only reason that it is rationalized to be OK is because it is in the Bible. There are no external rational defense for that kind of behavior.

And this includes god blessed killing of children, raping women, enslaving people, genocide, and human sacrifice.

[cardw]

Just out of curiosity, (that is, if you don't mind answering), are you in northern, central, or southern California? As you can see, I'm in southern.

I'm in Northern CA

[John317]

:-)

[John317]

And this includes god blessed... raping women... human sacrifice.

The God of the Bible never blessed raping women or human sacrifice.

When it comes to killing people or enslaving them, it was not a matter of God's blessing those things.

God allowed Abraham and David and Solomon to have many wives, but that is not the same as saying that God wanted them to do those things.

God did give the Israelites persmission to enslave people at times, but he also gave them instructions on how to treat them. Hebrews didn't treat their servants or slaves the same way that many people treated them, such as many American slave-owners.

This did not make it right, but it's important to put these things in perspective.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

And this includes god blessed... raping women... human sacrifice.

The God of the Bible never blessed raping women or human sacrifice.

When it comes to killing people or enslaving them, it was not a matter of God's blessing those things.

God allowed Abraham and David and Solomon to have many wives, but that is not the same as saying that God wanted them to do those things.

God did give the Israelites persmission to enslave people at times, but he also gave them instructions on how to treat them. Hebrews didn't treat their servants or slaves the same way that many people treated them, such as many American slave-owners.

This did not make it right, but it's important to put these things in perspective.

How do you deny that god ordered them to do many of these things when it says so right in the Bible?

How do you deny God's praise for the violent actions of Josiah when it says so right in the bible?

[John317]

How do you deny that god ordered them to do many of these things when it says so right in the Bible?

How do you deny God's praise for the violent actions of Josiah when it says so right in the bible?

Show where God orders the people to offer human sacrifice or rape women. This is what you claimed.

[John317]

And this includes god blessed killing of children, raping women, enslaving people, genocide, and human sacrifice.

If you don't like people to misrepresent what you do or say, please have the same consideration for the One who created you and me and keeps us alive.

[John317]

...

And this list includes the great theologian, philosopher, nobel peace prize winner, scientist, and physician Albert Schweitzer

"The Jesus of Nazareth who came forward publicly as the Messiah, who preached the ethic of the Kingdom of God, who founded the Kingdom of Heaven upon earth, and died to give His work its final consecration, never had any existence."

It's easy to misunderstand this statement by Albert Schweitzer.

He was speaking as an historian in search of the "historical Jesus." Dr. Schwitzer was himself a Christian who believed strongly in Jesus as his example. Schweitzer's entire life was actually devoted to Christ, but he had some strange ideas that were not based on the Bible. He believe Jesus existed but not the Jesus that is presented in the Gospels. He didn't think we could ever discover who Jesus actually was. So Scheitzer was saying that the Jesus of "history," i.e., as popularly taught, "never had any existence." He is not saying that no Jesus Christ at all ever existed.

Wikipedia:

Quote:

Schweitzer considered his work as a medical missionary in Africa to be his response to Jesus' call to become "fishers of men".

It would be like telling people that the Wyatt Earp of the movies never existed. That would not be the same as saying that Wyatt Earp the man never existed.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

How do you deny that god ordered them to do many of these things when it says so right in the Bible?

How do you deny God's praise for the violent actions of Josiah when it says so right in the bible?

Show where God orders the people to offer human sacrifice or rape women. This is what you claimed.

John did you miss the word many? I did not say all.

The orders to kill are not hard to find.

I can look them up for you if you want.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

And this includes god blessed killing of children, raping women, enslaving people, genocide, and human sacrifice.

If you don't like people to misrepresent what you do or say, please have the same consideration for the One who created you and me and keeps us alive.

Oh please.

[Pockey]

The more I have read the Bible the more I am bothered by the fact that we are expected to believe it is THE TRUTH, simply because it says it is! If the Almighty actually exists and created us with this intellect - then I think it would be insulting to him to not question, to just blindly accept a book written thousands of years ago as the WHOLE TRUTH. If that is the case - why did he give us these intellects?

I agree with you EmptyCross, I don't think He wants us to blindly accept truth. There are some interesting things about the Bible that have helped convince me it is the word of God. It was written by about 40 different people from different backgrounds, spanning 3 continents and 3 different languages. Yet still uncannily maintains the same message, themes, and harmony, as if written by the same person! Usually when you get several witnesses viewing the same event, their recall is widely varied.

The prophecies of the Bible also helped convince me. For example, Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream about the statue. It is amazing how Daniel was able to predict that the next 3 empires to rise and fall would be Medo-Persia, Greece and then Rome. And then there's over 125 prophecies of Jesus that came true. For example, born in Bethleham (Micah 5:2), sold for 30 coins (Zechariah 11:12), no bones broken (Ps 34:20).

There was a study done at Pasadena City College by Stoner and Newman with 600 of their students over several years that calculated the odds of just 8 of those 125 predictions coming true regarding the prophecy of the Messiah. Their calculations were 1 in 10^17 for just those 8. If there were 10^17 silver dollar coins, that would be enough to cover Texas 2 feet deep!

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

...

And this list includes the great theologian, philosopher, nobel peace prize winner, scientist, and physician Albert Schweitzer

"The Jesus of Nazareth who came forward publicly as the Messiah, who preached the ethic of the Kingdom of God, who founded the Kingdom of Heaven upon earth, and died to give His work its final consecration, never had any existence."

It's easy to misunderstand this statement by Albert Schweitzer.

He was speaking as an historian in search of the "historical Jesus." Dr. Schwitzer was himself a Christian who believed strongly in Jesus as his example.

I don't think you could classify Schweitzer as a Christian. Schweitzer himself drew the conclusion that Jesus believed in the imminent end of the world, that he was wrong, and that therefore he was not infallible or inspired or divine.

He certainly followed many of those who saw themselves as enlightened and included the philosophy of Jesus, but he certainly questioned the historical claims of the Bible. He saw much of the bible as myth.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

The more I have read the Bible the more I am bothered by the fact that we are expected to believe it is THE TRUTH, simply because it says it is! If the Almighty actually exists and created us with this intellect - then I think it would be insulting to him to not question, to just blindly accept a book written thousands of years ago as the WHOLE TRUTH. If that is the case - why did he give us these intellects?

I agree with you EmptyCross, I don't think He wants us to blindly accept truth. There are some interesting things about the Bible that have helped convinced me it is the word of God. It was written by about 40 different people from different backgrounds, spanning 3 continents and 3 different languages. Yet still uncannily maintains the same message, themes, and harmony, as if written by the same person! Usually when you get several witnesses viewing the same event, their recall is widely varied.

The prophecies of the Bible also helped convince me. For example, Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream about the statue. How was Daniel able to predict that the next 3 empires to rise and fall would be Medo-Persia, Greece and then Rome? And then there's over 125 prophecies of Jesus that came true. For example, born in Bethleham (Micah 5:2), sold for 30 coins (Zechariah 11:12), no bones broken (Ps 34:20).

There was a study done at Pasadena City College by Stoner and Newman with 600 of their students over several years that calculated the odds of just 8 of those 125 predictions coming true regarding the prophecy of the Messiah. They're calculations were 1 in 10^17 for just those 8. If there were 10^17 silver dollar coins, that would be enough to cover Texas 2 feet deep!

That is basically the odds that it was written before the events happened. It is far more likely that it was written afterwards and the later texts modified the Jesus myth to include these OT texts in an attempt to bind the Old Testament with the newly made up Christian religion.

There is significant doubt that Daniel was written before the 2nd century B.C.

In the critical view, "there would be few modern biblical scholars ... who would now seriously defend such an opinion." Many biblical critics date the book to the 2nd century BC "The arguments for a date shortly before the death of Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 164 are overwhelming." Brown, Raymond E.; Fitzmyer, Joseph A.; Murphy, Roland E., eds (1999). The New Jerome Biblical Commentary. Prentice Hall. p. 1475.

[Pockey]

That is basically the odds that it was written before the events happened. It is far more likely that it was written afterwards and the later texts modified the Jesus myth to include these OT texts in an attempt to bind the Old Testament with the newly made up Christian religion.

There is significant doubt that Daniel was written before the 2nd century B.C.

In the critical view, "there would be few modern biblical scholars ... who would now seriously defend such an opinion." Many biblical critics date the book to the 2nd century BC "The arguments for a date shortly before the death of Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 164 are overwhelming." Brown, Raymond E.; Fitzmyer, Joseph A.; Murphy, Roland E., eds (1999). The New Jerome Biblical Commentary. Prentice Hall. p. 1475.

Straight outa Wikipedia again cardw?

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

In other words cardw you are refusing to answer my question; choosing instead another one of your many diversionary red herrings..

I did answer your question. I stated what I thought was judgmental. That is my definition by example.

If you can't comprehend that then we can't communicate.

No; you didn't answer my question. I asked you something specific about what type of "judgmental" you were referring to.

[Overaged]

If the Almighty actually exists and created us with thijavascript:%20void(0)s intellect - then I think it would be insulting to him to not question, to just blindly accept a book written thousands of years ago as the WHOLE TRUTH. If that is the case - why did he give us these intellects?

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: cardw

And this includes god blessed killing of children, raping women, enslaving people, genocide, and human sacrifice.

If you don't like people to misrepresent what you do or say, please have the same consideration for the One who created you and me and keeps us alive.

[Overaged]

Straight outa Wikipedia again cardw?

Wikipedia is cardw's "Bible." That would be OK if Wikipedia was not suffering from being an activists haven.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

That is basically the odds that it was written before the events happened. It is far more likely that it was written afterwards and the later texts modified the Jesus myth to include these OT texts in an attempt to bind the Old Testament with the newly made up Christian religion.

There is significant doubt that Daniel was written before the 2nd century B.C.

In the critical view, "there would be few modern biblical scholars ... who would now seriously defend such an opinion." Many biblical critics date the book to the 2nd century BC "The arguments for a date shortly before the death of Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 164 are overwhelming." Brown, Raymond E.; Fitzmyer, Joseph A.; Murphy, Roland E., eds (1999). The New Jerome Biblical Commentary. Prentice Hall. p. 1475.

Straight outa Wikipedia again cardw?

And?

[cardw]

No; you didn't answer my question. I asked you something specific about what type of "judgmental" you were referring to.

You asked me "something specific?"

How much more general can you get? LOL