Is Jesus really the Sun god?

[John317]

...You would never accept his reasons for believing in Joseph Smith and yet you use the same type of "reasoning" to justify your faith in the Bible.

That is the true reason these dialogs go no where.

There is no possible evidence, however strong, that could convince you that Christianity was formed just like every other man made institution.

This isn't true, cardw.

I don't use the same type of reasoning to justify faith in the Bible as the Mormons use for faith in the Book of Mormon or in Joseph Smith.

And there is possible evidence that could convince me that Christianity was formed just like every other man-made religion.

But that evidence is not your speculations and conjectures.

[Overaged]

quote=Overaged]quote=cardw]

This is the typical judge your opponent as egocentric and hopeless instead of addressing facts.

/quote]Well now you have got us. We are cornered. If we dare to venture an opinin about your ideas, we are "judgmental."

I wonder? Would that be the Bible version of "judgmental" that you refer to or some other version?/quote]

Not everything is about you.

Will ye be answering my question or what is it that's shaking here?

[Overaged]

And there is possible evidence that could convince me that Christianity was formed just like every other man-made religion.

Huh?

[John317]

And there is possible evidence that could convince me that Christianity was formed just like every other man-made religion.

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Huh?

I mean that I can think of evidence which, if proved to be correct, would convince me that Christianity is false. But I have never see such evidence. In fact, all the evidence I've seen convinces me that the Bible is true and trust-worthy.

PS. Do you know the name of that remarkable animal in the picture?

[cardw]

You're absolutely correct. I have a strong faith in God. I don't deny it. I just wish you were as honest and would admit that there is no argument that would ever convince you that my point of view is correct.

[John317]

When did you last read a pro-Christian book all the way though?

Have you ever read the books of Lee Strobel, a former atheist, such as The Case For Christ, The Case For Faith, etc.?

http://www.phatcampus.com/catalog/produc...ping_comparison

The Case For a Creator:

http://books.google.com/books/about/The_case_for_a_Creator.html?id=Wg66gWttf-cC

[John317]

Quoting the bible does not tell us what the early Christians believed. It only tells us what one sect of Jews believed. You have Josiah, claiming to be the greatest of all Jewish Kings, killing the priests of other sects on their own alters to defile them.

That was a good thing. It was what God wanted Josiah to do.

God doesn't want us to do it today because the circumstances are totally different, but for that time, it was important for Josiah do kill those false priests, just as it was for Elijah to kill the priests of Baal on Mt. Carmel, and for Moses to do what he did in Ex. 32: 26-28.

[fccool]

Originally Posted By: fccool

I'm not sure if it is derived solely from Sun Worship.

I thought you're a follower of Christ, a Seventh-day Adventist.

Follower of Christ is a follower of the way. It does not mean that I would ignore certain objective evidence that paints a certain picture of modern Christianity.

Both Christianity and Adventism in their modern form are far from their original form. They are much closer to the Roman and pagan Christianity with much of the tradition and dogma that blinds both leaders who need to perpetuate it to justify their actions, and the followers who need to defend their investment in faith.

I'm in Adventist Church for that particular reason. It's much closer to the original form, although still much of the Catholic Dark-Age remnant dogma remains intact. But, I don't have to accept it.

Christ was portrayed teaching principles. In fact, it was these principles that carried the Church through even prior to synoptic gospels being written and circulated among the early churches. Today, a church is a power house organization with army of lawyers, a gargantuan bank account, and a set of dogmas to support an organization.

I don't believe it was meant to be that way, but it is what it is. For me it's about people. I can support the people, without rendering support for organization. It's the choice I make, based on honest belief that I have.

[Overaged]

I mean that I can think of evidence which, if proved to be correct, would convince me that Christianity is false. But I have never see such evidence. In fact, all the evidence I've seen convinces me that the Bible is true and trust-worthy.

whew!

[cardw]

Well now you have got us. We are cornered. If we dare to venture an opinin about your ideas, we are "judgmental."

I wonder? Would that be the Bible version of "judgmental" that you refer to or some other version?/quote]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Not everything is about you.

Will ye be answering my question or what is it that's shaking here?

In any definition of judgmental calling my life hopeless and calling me egocentric because I disagree with you is being judgmental.

You have a decided lack of specifics. You rely on generalities. This is a very classic fallacy. This is not my definition. I have posted a reference from wikipedia many times on a list of common fallacies. You use them almost exclusively.

I don't really know how to respond to most of what you post, because it is so poorly thought out. It is very difficult to be polite because you so poorly represent my views when you respond. It is if you don't read them at all. And I get tired of repeating myself and cleaning up all the misrepresentations.

[cardw]

When did you last read a pro-Christian book all the way though?

Have you ever read the books of Lee Strobel, a former atheist, such as The Case For Christ, The Case For Faith, etc.?

http://www.phatcampus.com/catalog/produc...ping_comparison

The Case For a Creator:

http://books.google.com/books/about/The_case_for_a_Creator.html?id=Wg66gWttf-cC

Here is a link that has a very thorough review of Lee Strobel's book, "A Case for Faith."

I have many of the same objections to Lee Strobel's arguments. They are outlined very well in this critical look at this book.

Paul Doland: A Critial Look at Lee Strobels's The Case for Faith

Again most of these arguments are fallacies. There is simply too large of a leap to get from these generalized and vague arguments by Lee Strobel to specific Christian doctrinal beliefs.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Quoting the bible does not tell us what the early Christians believed. It only tells us what one sect of Jews believed. You have Josiah, claiming to be the greatest of all Jewish Kings, killing the priests of other sects on their own alters to defile them.

That was a good thing. It was what God wanted Josiah to do.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: John317

I thought you're a follower of Christ, a Seventh-day Adventist.

Follower of Christ is a follower of the way. It does not mean that I would ignore certain objective evidence that paints a certain picture of modern Christianity.

Both Christianity and Adventism in their modern form are far from their original form. They are much closer to the Roman and pagan Christianity with much of the tradition and dogma that blinds both leaders who need to perpetuate it to justify their actions, and the followers who need to defend their investment in faith.

I'm in Adventist Church for that particular reason. It's much closer to the original form, although still much of the Catholic Dark-Age remnant dogma remains intact. But, I don't have to accept it.

Christ was portrayed teaching principles. In fact, it was these principles that carried the Church through even prior to synoptic gospels being written and circulated among the early churches. Today, a church is a power house organization with army of lawyers, a gargantuan bank account, and a set of dogmas to support an organization.

I don't believe it was meant to be that way, but it is what it is. For me it's about people. I can support the people, without rendering support for organization. It's the choice I make, based on honest belief that I have.

fccool,

I think you would enjoy the writings of Joseph Campbell. His interviews with Bill Moyers are very insightful. He has studied the rituals and belief structures of hundreds of cultures and categorized the archetypical messages of many of them.

He has probably done some of the most complete explorations of the religious mind of mankind.

[Overaged]

I don't really know how to respond to most of what you post, because it is so poorly thought out. It is very difficult to be polite because you so poorly represent my views when you respond. It is if you don't read them at all. And I get tired of repeating myself and cleaning up all the misrepresentations.

But I wasn't representing your views. I asked you a specific question about a word you used. Period. Are you going to answer it or play Wikipedia?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I don't really know how to respond to most of what you post, because it is so poorly thought out. It is very difficult to be polite because you so poorly represent my views when you respond. It is if you don't read them at all. And I get tired of repeating myself and cleaning up all the misrepresentations.

But I wasn't representing your views. I asked you a specific question about a word you used. Period. Are you going to answer it or play Wikipedia?

[Overaged]

In other words cardw you are refusing to answer my question; choosing instead another one of your many diversionary red herrings..

[cardw]

In other words cardw you are refusing to answer my question; choosing instead another one of your many diversionary red herrings..

I did answer your question. I stated what I thought was judgmental. That is my definition by example.

If you can't comprehend that then we can't communicate.

[John317]

Yeah I guess I should have made that clearer at the first.

[John317]

I'm not sure if it is derived solely from Sun Worship.

Originally Posted By: John3:17

I thought you're a follower of Christ, a Seventh-day Adventist.

Originally Posted By: fccool

Follower of Christ is a follower of the way. It does not mean that I would ignore certain objective evidence that paints a certain picture of modern Christianity.

I'm talking about your statement that you are not sure whether Christianity is derived solely from Sun Worship.

I must not be understanding what you mean by those words.

[John317]

I'm in Adventist Church for that particular reason. It's much closer to the original form, although still much of the Catholic Dark-Age remnant dogma remains intact. But, I don't have to accept it.

Christ was portrayed teaching principles. In fact, it was these principles that carried the Church through even prior to synoptic gospels being written and circulated among the early churches. Today, a church is a power house organization with army of lawyers, a gargantuan bank account, and a set of dogmas to support an organization.

I don't believe it was meant to be that way, but it is what it is. For me it's about people. I can support the people, without rendering support for organization. It's the choice I make, based on honest belief that I have.

OK, I see what you mean-- the organizational structure, etc.-- but what about the official teachings of the SDA church? Do you believe those also are where you find "much of hte Catholic Dark-Age remnant dogma remains intact"?

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Quoting the bible does not tell us what the early Christians believed. It only tells us what one sect of Jews believed. You have Josiah, claiming to be the greatest of all Jewish Kings, killing the priests of other sects on their own alters to defile them.

That was a good thing. It was what God wanted Josiah to do.

God doesn't want us to do it today because the circumstances are totally different, but for that time, it was important for Josiah do kill those false priests, just as it was for Elijah to kill the priests of Baal on Mt. Carmel, and for Moses to do what he did in Ex. 32: 26-28.

See this bothers me to no end. God told them to do it. How many people are sitting in prison right now for killing someone cause they claim "God" told them too. We don't defend them. We label them mentally ill.

Did Christ tell the crusaders to kill all the people that they killed?

On that token - when the Vikings killed Christian priests for building temples over top of their holy places - where they justified? Maybe Odin told them to do it.

Most such killing is done out of pride and political manuvering. But because its a king or a priest its"ok". Its accepted.

I think its an excuse.

[John317]

Do you read the books themselves? Or do you just read the critiques of them written by atheists?

[M. T. Cross]

Eh?

[cardw]

Do you read the books themselves? Or do you just read the critiques of them written by atheists?

I have read the books themselves along with many many others.

Remember I used to defend this stuff.

It became quite evident that I could no longer do it and maintain intellectual honesty.

[John317]

I understand what you're saying. Your objection is much the same as cardw's, so I'll try to answer your questions more fully in the post I write in response to Richard's.

In the meantime:

How many people are sitting in prison right now for killing someone cause they claim "God" told them too. We don't defend them. We label them mentally ill.

And rightly so. The conditions are changed so that God no longer tells people to take the lives of other human beings. To understand why God ever commanded the taking of human life, it's necessary to go back in history and look at the conditions that existed in those times and understand God's purposes in doing it.

I've worked as a "pysch tech" in a large mental institution, so I'm well acquainted with the phenomena you're talking about. Many of these people hear voices telling them to commit crimes, and it is not the voice of God.

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Did Christ tell the crusaders to kill all the people that they killed?

Certainly not. The crusaders weren't acting in behalf of Christ, although I'm sure they thought they were. Christ wanted the church to go to those lands and teach them the Good News, not kill them. The crusades were the result of a corrupt church and a false gospel. If it hadn't been for the corruption in the church during the 6th century, Mohammad would almost certainly have converted to Christ.

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

On that token - when the Vikings killed Christian priests for building temples over top of their holy places - where they justified? Maybe Odin told them to do it.

No, they weren't justified.

Odin doesn't exist in reality, of course. I believe all the false gods, such as Odin-- whom my ancestors used to worship-- were creations of people under the influence of Satan in order to blind them to the truth about God.

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Most such killing is done out of pride and political manuvering. But because its a king or a priest its"ok". Its accepted.

I think its an excuse.

I agree with you.