Is Jesus really the Sun god?

[John317]

Yes, God did order Israelites to kill people.

Originally Posted By: cardw

You forgot to mention that this order included children.

No, I didn't forget.

But why did God do this?

By the way, God is able to raise up people from the dead and give them eternal life, isn't He?

God also is able to read the heart and mind and know the character of all people.

[John317]

The God of the Old Testament was actually the One we know today as Jesus Christ.

What you're doing is a lot like the person who cuts out all the pictures in a medical textbook and claims that it is pornography. It's necessary to take things in their proper context. The same is true with respect to the Bible.

You sound like you would agree with the lady I know of who believes the God of the OT is really the Devil. Some first and second century Christians had the same idea.

Students of the Civil and Revolutionary Wars could also take incidents of the wars out of context for the purpose of making things look different than they really were.

[Overaged]

Exactly what context would fix this?

And exactly what meaning have I given this that is not obvious in the text already?

If you ask this question; it can only mean you are not interested in ANY answer but your own; and that you will not acept any reply but your own.

[Bravus]

Not really. Why not answer the questions?

1. Has cardw, in quoting the text, adding anything to it that is not there?

2. What feature of the context, either textual or social, makes what is on the face of it an ethically hideous thing be not ethically hideous?

Your claim was that things were being taken out of context. To support that claim you need to show how that is being done.

[Bravus]

Here's the full textual context, Deuteronomy 22:

1 If you see your fellow Israelite’s ox or sheep straying, do not ignore it but be sure to take it back to its owner. 2 If they do not live near you or if you do not know who owns it, take it home with you and keep it until they come looking for it. Then give it back. 3 Do the same if you find their donkey or cloak or anything else they have lost. Do not ignore it.

4 If you see your fellow Israelite’s donkey or ox fallen on the road, do not ignore it. Help the owner get it to its feet.

5 A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.

6 If you come across a bird’s nest beside the road, either in a tree or on the ground, and the mother is sitting on the young or on the eggs, do not take the mother with the young. 7 You may take the young, but be sure to let the mother go, so that it may go well with you and you may have a long life.

8 When you build a new house, make a parapet around your roof so that you may not bring the guilt of bloodshed on your house if someone falls from the roof.

9 Do not plant two kinds of seed in your vineyard; if you do, not only the crops you plant but also the fruit of the vineyard will be defiled.[a]

10 Do not plow with an ox and a donkey yoked together.

11 Do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together.

12 Make tassels on the four corners of the cloak you wear.

Marriage Violations

13 If a man takes a wife and, after sleeping with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, “I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,” 15 then the young woman’s father and mother shall bring to the town elders at the gate proof that she was a virgin. 16 Her father will say to the elders, “I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, ‘I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.’ But here is the proof of my daughter’s virginity.” Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the young woman’s father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.

20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.

22 If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[c] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

30 A man is not to marry his father’s wife; he must not dishonor his father’s bed.[d]

[John317]

Bravus, do you agree with cardw?

[Bravus]

Sucks to have a hymen that doesn't bleed through no fault of your own: that little anatomical accident can get you stoned to death. Not everyone's does...

[Bravus]

Bravus, do you agree with cardw?

About what? I just came in on the end of the thread. I don't believe Jesus is the sun god. I do believe that the Bible contains some barbaric pronouncements and that the usual explanations explain nothing.

[John317]

For instance, post#479360.

[John317]

I do believe that the Bible contains some barbaric pronouncements and that the usual explanations explain nothing.

WE all agree that many of the things that occurred in the OT were barbaric and terrible.

Did God command Israel to kill people, including women and children, as the Bible says He did?

Once we decide whether He did or not, then we can try to find an explanation for it.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: John317

Bravus, do you agree with cardw?

About what? I just came in on the end of the thread. I don't believe Jesus is the sun god. I do believe that the Bible contains some barbaric pronouncements and that the usual explanations explain nothing.

I don't believe that the usual accusations against God or the Bible, as posted by cardw prove anything.

[Bravus]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

I do believe that the Bible contains some barbaric pronouncements and that the usual explanations explain nothing.

WE all agree that many of the things that occurred in the OT were barbaric and terrible.

Did God command Israel to kill people, including women and children, as the Bible says He did?

Once we decide whether He did or not, then we can try to find an explanation for it.

You've stipulated that he did (top of the previous page). Is that still your position?

[Bravus]

Quote:

I don't believe that the usual accusations against God or the Bible, as posted by cardw prove anything.

If it is true that God ordered that a rape victim must marry her rapist for life, then that says something about God. 'Prove' is a difficult word for me, but 'evidence' of someone's nature is in their actions and (if they are in a position of command) in their commandments.

On my part, it's not an 'accusation against God', it's a genuine desire to understand. But you keep dodging the question.

Did God command it?

Is it right?

If not, what makes it right if God commanded it?

Or did God command something that is wrong?

These are real, heart-felt questions. They need real answers, not accusations and tap-dancing.

[Overaged]

Quote:

I don't believe that the usual accusations against God or the Bible, as posted by cardw prove anything.

If it is true that God ordered that a rape victim must marry her rapist for life, then that says something about God. 'Prove' is a difficult word for me, but 'evidence' of someone's nature is in their actions and (if they are in a position of command) in their commandments.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Exactly what context would fix this?

And exactly what meaning have I given this that is not obvious in the text already?

If you ask this question; it can only mean you are not interested in ANY answer but your own; and that you will not acept any reply but your own.

How can asking a question be a sign of not wanting an answer?

That doesn't make sense to me.

[John317]

Did God command Israel to kill people, including women and children, as the Bible says He did?

Once we decide whether He did or not, then we can try to find an explanation for it.

Originally Posted By: Bravus

You've stipulated that he did (top of the previous page). Is that still your position?

Yes, I believe what the Bible teaches about this.

How about yourself? Do you reject what the Bible clearly states?

[John317]

Do you agree, then, with cardw's posts on this thread, and particularly post#479360 in regard to what he said about the Bible?

[John317]

How about what the Bible says concerning Noah's Flood? Do you believe God destroyed the world in a Flood?

I think that's a more important question to answer than the one about rape.

[cardw]

How about what the Bible says concerning Noah's Flood? Do you believe God destroyed the world in a Flood?

I think that's a more important question to answer than the one about rape.

This is the problem.

Every time we get to the heart of the problem, you want to move on to something else.

All this does is cloud the issue.

Bravus does an excellent job of breaking down the problem.

I am actually interested to see if you actually have a rational solution to those questions.

Like Bravus said, the standard answers are pretty unsatisfactory.

Generalizations are unsatisfactory.

Asking me what I think is unsatisfactory.

I would like to see someone face this issue head on.

I have faced it head on and I find no solution other than to see it as something made up by men to justify some pretty terrible behavior by saying god told me to do it. Or god allowed me to do it.

[Bravus]

I'm happy to wait.

[John317]

Do you agree, then, with cardw's posts on this thread, and particularly post#479360 in regard to what he said about the Bible?

[John317]

I wasn't asking you, cardw. I know you don't believe in God or in the Bible. I am asking Bravus.

It's 1: 20 am here in Ca. I'll be back in a few hours. :-)

[cardw]

Do you agree, then, with cardw's posts on this thread, and particularly post#479360 in regard to what he said about the Bible?

[Bravus]

Exactly. They're simple questions and they're important questions.

[BobRyan]

I know I talk a lot about evidence. So let's look at Malachi 4:2. This is considered to be a prophecy about Jesus. It states

Quote:

But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and leap like calves released from the stall.

.

All nations - all cultures come from the one family of Noah after the flood. That group of 8 getting off the boat - were of the same religion.

So you can ultimately trace all false religions back to one true religion.

Christ is the lily of the valley, bright and morning star, the sun of righteousness with healing in His wings, The lion of the tribe of Judah, the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world.

How Satan creeps in to pervert true religion and true worship of God has been a theme of SDA evangelism. Our seminars have been exposing just some of Satan's methods used over time to lead mankind away from the pure truth given at the beginning.

in Christ,

Bob