Did Christ Die the Second Death

[Igakusei]

This is something I never understood, even as a child. I remember always being confused by this, so I thought I would throw it out there and see what kind of answers I get. I'm not trying to pick a fight, so I promise I won't reply negatively to any of your answers.

If the penalty for sin is dying the second death and being eternally separated from God, then how did Jesus take that penalty from us considering that he was resurrected? The best I've ever heard was that he thought that he was dying the second death while on the cross, but thinking you are paying a terrible price is not exactly equal to actually paying a terrible price.

Resurrection makes the whole thing seem like me going into Best Buy and paying a few thousand dollars for a computer, but then breaking back in three days later and taking my money back. Doesn't that sort of negate the power of paying the price in the first place? If God can just bend the rules like that, why did Christ even need to die in the first place?

Anyway, I was just curious to see how this question is answered, since I don't remember ever getting one that didn't leave me confused. I promise I'm not trying to bait anyone.

[Dr. Waite]

An equal question is: Was it just the human mortal life that Jesus laid down or did it also include the "unborrowed immortal life within himself" that he laid down?

[barnz]

I once asked this question at my old bible study group and my fellow members and our pastor told me the mechanics of Christianity.

The wages of sin is death.

Because we sin, the debt we must pay is death (spiritual death, second death, etc)

Jesus died the spiritual death for us so we did not have to, so he was thrown into the lake fire and was destroyed for all eternity!!!

However, because he is God, even though he was destroyed for all eternity, he was able to bring himself back out of nothingness, because he's God.

The debt was paid, God is still alive, all is good!

Does anyone disagree???

[Dr. Waite]

I once asked this question at my old bible study group and my fellow members and our pastor told me the mechanics of Christianity.

The wages of sin is death.

Because we sin, the debt we must pay is death (spiritual death, second death, etc)

Jesus died the spiritual death for us so we did not have to, so he was thrown into the lake fire and was destroyed for all eternity!!!

However, because he is God, even though he was destroyed for all eternity, he was able to bring himself back out of nothingness, because he's God.

The debt was paid, God is still alive, all is good!

Does anyone disagree???

Yes, I disagree, due to the fact that He was able (had the power) to bring himself back from nothingness because He received this commandment from his Father - the only true God. He did not receive the commandment (or power) from himself.

"I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings." John 10:14-18

"In him was life; and the life was the light of men." It is not physical life that is here specified, but eternal life, the life which is exclusively the property of God. The Word, who was with God, and who was God, had this life. Physical life is something which each individual received. It is not eternal or immortal; for God, the Lifegiver, takes it again. . . . But the life of Christ was unborrowed. No one can take this life from Him. "I lay it down of myself," He said. . . . This life is not inherent in man. He can possess it only through Christ. He cannot earn it; it is given him as a free gift if he will believe in Christ as his personal Saviour. "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" (John 17:3). This is the open fountain of life for the world (The SDA Bible Commentary, Ellen G. White Comments, vol. 5, p. 1130).

[Igakusei]

I don't understand how this isn't exactly like my Best Buy analogy. Can you try to clarify? My question was how can Jesus pay the price of eternal separation from God without being eternally separated from God?

[Gordon1]

Good questions.

[barnz]

To Dr. Waite - I actually don't quite understand exactly where in my post you disagree with me.

To Igakuse - I don't completely understand your best buy analogy. What does the computer represent? What does best buy represent? What does the money represent?

An analogy as I understand it is like this...

I owe $1000(the wages of sin) too my friend(God). My brother(Jesus) paid off the debt to my friend for me(Jesus' death for all eternity). After paying $1000, my brother magically made $1000 reappear in his wallet(Jesus' resurrection).

Jesus was completely destroyed for all eternity when he was sacrificed, even though that was the case, he was able to come back to life anyway. Imagine God's life was the unstoppable force and the 2nd Death was the immovable object, in this case, the unstoppable force was able to move the immovable object.

[Robert]

This is the best I've read on the 2nd death.

[Raphael]

Playing both end of the fields as God and creation, judge & sinner, immortal & mortal...

Dying a legitimate mortal death but then exerting His own Divinity to break death's boundaries... playing both ends of the field...

Just brings to memory how often Christ said NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE to GOD... perhaps because God could "CHEAT" so easily...?

... really depends on what we would like to believe in ... cause there is really nothing else ... except big banging worm tales and gasping short lives...

[Guest]

I like the way you said that Raphael.

[Dr. Waite]

Playing both end of the fields as God and creation, judge & sinner, immortal & mortal...

Dying a legitimate mortal death but then exerting His own Divinity to break death's boundaries... playing both ends of the field...

Just brings to memory how often Christ said NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE to GOD... perhaps because God could "CHEAT" so easily...?

... really depends on what we would like to believe in ... cause there is really nothing else ... except big banging worm tales and gasping short lives...

You state: "Dying a legitimate mortal death but then exerting His own Divinity to break death's boundaries.."

Christ did not use his own divinity to break death's boundaries. Look at his own words:

"I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings. John 10:14-19

There is still a division today regarding His words.

Christ says that the power or authority (same word in greek) to lay down his life (immortal unborrowed life - see EGW quote previously given)and take it up again came from His Father (and not from Himself). Therefore, he did NOT use his own divinity to break death's boundaries.

[Igakusei]

If God can "CHEAT" and bend his own rules like that, then what's the need for the sacrifice in the first place? Why not just forgive?

And you can't say that he died an eternal death and then was resurrected, because eternal death, by definition, means eternal. If he just pops back to life in a couple days, then he wasn't really eternally dead.

[barnz]

If God can "CHEAT" and bend his own rules like that, then what's the need for the sacrifice in the first place? Why not just forgive?

[Kevin H]

The second death is the hell of wanting to be with our deepest desire: God, yet refusing to yield to the drawing of the Holy Spirit as God's love consumes us. They get to a place where they either have to yield or else cease to exist.

The entire trinity went through this in the passion. He wanted to just be with the Father and the Spirit and the Spirit and Father wanted to be with Jesus. Yet despite this overwheming desire to be together they refused to allow it to happen. The lost will refuse to allow it because they are afraid that God is going to get them for their sins so they pull back in terror. The members of the God head did it out of love for us knowing that if they did not let sin sepperate them from each other, and thus in the process kill Jesus, that it would kill us and the whole universe. The second death is the suicide of choosing to allow something to keep us from being with and enjoying the fellowship of God.

The cross shows us what sin does to us, the resurection tells us what if only we would let God, not all the sins of the world can keep us way, that God's love has the power to conqure all except for refusing to force our will. The second death need not keep the lost dead forever except that they willed to have the eternal sepperation.

111

[12tribes]

An equal question is: Was it just the human mortal life that Jesus laid down or did it also include the "unborrowed immortal life within himself" that he laid down?

[miz3]

This is something I never understood, even as a child. I remember always being confused by this, so I thought I would throw it out there and see what kind of answers I get. I'm not trying to pick a fight, so I promise I won't reply negatively to any of your answers.

If the penalty for sin is dying the second death and being eternally separated from God, then how did Jesus take that penalty from us considering that he was resurrected? The best I've ever heard was that he thought that he was dying the second death while on the cross, but thinking you are paying a terrible price is not exactly equal to actually paying a terrible price.

Resurrection makes the whole thing seem like me going into Best Buy and paying a few thousand dollars for a computer, but then breaking back in three days later and taking my money back. Doesn't that sort of negate the power of paying the price in the first place? If God can just bend the rules like that, why did Christ even need to die in the first place?

Anyway, I was just curious to see how this question is answered, since I don't remember ever getting one that didn't leave me confused. I promise I'm not trying to bait anyone.

Igakusei, this is an excellent question. It is questions like this that often get Christians into trouble.

The heart of this question goes right to heart of who God is. If we can know God and figure Him out then we can know how things work. Most Christians "think" they have God figured out they think the only thing left is to pick a few facts that have not been revealed. Other than the "few facts" most Christians believe that they know God and how God operates. In my book this kind of thinking could not be further from the Truth.

Human kind has hardly even begun to know to God and how He operates. We, humans, are not even at a level to be called preschool let alone try and tackle questions as deep as your question is.

The problem is that most Christians describe and understand God based on the "box" which is this planet and its existence. All the rules that govern how things work on this planet we call earth are the sum total of the rules that govern everything including heaven in the view of most people. In this light Christians understand and interpret everything they know about God within this very limited "box".

However, the Bible actually tells us that God is infinitely beyond this box, see Isaiah chapter 55 and Matthew chapter 19 and Luke 1:37. This means that God is not bound in any way shape or form by the rules of existence, rules of logic, rules of conduct, etc. that dominate and LIMIT our life as humans on this planet. God simply does not have these limitations.

Yet most Christians use these very "limiters" to account for how God is this, or does that, or how God cannot do this, or cannot be that. We do that as if God is just a "super human" who can do things better than we can but does so under the "limiting powers" that bind us as humans. This type of God is simply too small.

This is why Christians have so difficult a time in defending their "faith". This is "often" but not always why nonChristians laugh and scoff at how "foolish" and absurd Christians are.

The PLAIN HONEST FACT is that humans whether Christian or nonChristian know extremely little about God and how God operates in the vast Universe of His Creation.

Now to your exact question.

The answer is no one can explain with any real coherence what actually happened because the Bible does not tell us. What we do know is that Jesus Christ's sacrifice was sufficient to satisfy the sin debt for all humans. See Romans chapter five which makes that very point.

So how could Jesus Christ go to "hell" (not just some fake move but really be eternally in hell) and then be raised and no longer in hell suffering for our sins and yet he suffered eternally in hell.

We call this a paradox. We call this a paradox because no matter what we say nothing makes sense because in our "limited human world" this state of affairs makes no sense.

However God is NOT BOUNDED BY OUR RULES OR ANYTHING ABOUT OUR "BOX". God lives and operates outside of our "box". The rules are different outside our "box".

Maybe according to the "rules outside our box" God (Jesus Christ) can both go to hell eternally and at the same take up His life again and exist as if nothing happened.

Such a thing is impossible in our current "box" while in a larger "box" such things are indeed possible. In God's existence there are no boundaries thus God is not "in any box" only God's Creations live in boxes with boundaries.

A Mathematics illustration:

Suppose we have a reality that consists ONLY OF ZERO AND THE WHOLE NUMBERS. In this reality I say take two from one. You correctly tell me that is impossible because our "boxed reality" does not allow for that. In fact in our Math box we do not even, nor will we ever have any concept of numeration other than zero and the whole numbers. We will never ever be aware of "fractions, radicals, decimals, negative values, etc. Thus in our box it will never ever be possible to take two from one.

Now in our little Math Parable some being from a bigger Math Box comes to us and says that s/he indeed did take two from one. What would we do? We would certainly scoff at such a one and ridicule their ability to do just that.

Now think about a Math being who is the One who created all Math beings and created their boxes too. Many in our box put their "faith" in this Math God because we believe the Miracles this Math God performs. This Math God then actually does take two from one and claims to have done it (much the same as dying eternally but rising again to live forever).

Skeptics assert that this Math God did not actually take two from one because such things are "impossible" and do not make sense. Parable end.

If we are bounded or boxed with the whole numbers and zero only, indeed it is impossible to take two from one. The rules of our boundary make it "impossible" under any and all circumstances.

However, if we can operate in our box using the rules of a greater box such as the "negative numbers" we indeed can take two from one without breaking any of the smaller box rules even though if we are limited to the perceptions of the smaller box it would to be a paradox. The greater rules break the paradox.

The same is true in regard to God and Jesus Christ. As Matthew chapter nineteen points out " nothing is impossible with God". That means when God and Jesus Christ operate they are operating by the UNBOUNDED RULES even when they are doing their stuff in our bounded planet.

As such God and Jesus Christ can "go to hell for eternity" and then rise "to live forever as if nothing happened". God and Jesus Christ can Love and Hate at the same time even though our bounded human sinful experience says such things are impossible. God and Jesus Christ can be Jealous and at the same time tell us that being Jealous is a mortal sin. God and Jesus Christ can tell us that it is a mortal sin to "lie" and at the same time God tells the prophet Samuel to lie and to cover his lie. It is a lie in "our box" but maybe just maybe it is not a "lie" in God's unbounded state.

Just like the "numbers boxes".

Think about it. You might grow to like it even though on first blush it seems difficult to accept.

That is because we humans are too used to and don't know any better than to judge all things by the rules of our extremely tiny box.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

An equal question is: Was it just the human mortal life that Jesus laid down or did it also include the "unborrowed immortal life within himself" that he laid down?

Quote:

“I am the resurrection, and the life” (John 11:25). He who had said, “I lay down my life, that I might take it again” (John 10:17), came forth from the grave to life that was in Himself. Humanity died; divinity did not die. In His divinity, Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death. He declares that He has life in Himself to quicken whom He will. {1SM 301.1}

I do not know if we can understand all of this there is evidence to say this is true we just need to have faith even though we do not understand everything.

I agree ultimately we have to "trust", have "faith", "believe" that God did both and that everything is cool.

[Robert]

Humanity died; divinity did not die. In His divinity, Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death.

God can't die. Why? He is God....He is the author of life. He's life's creator.

The law demands that our old life from Adam must die. Not a temporary death, but forever.

By assuming our life from Adam, Christ as the son of man became what He was not by divine right.

Here's a portion of what I quoted earlier on:

But some will argue, “How could Christ die the second death? He predicted His resurrection, and He actually rose the third day. How could He experience it?” First of all, the Bible says so. Heb. 2:9: “He tasted death for all men.” It could not be the first death because believers who accept Christ still have to die the first death. Then look at what Paul says in 2 Tim. 1:7-10. He says that Christ, through the cross, has “abolished death.” If He abolished death why do Christians die? Because He abolished only the second death, not the first death. Rev. 20:6 tells us that those who have part in the first resurrection, i.e., the believers, on such the second death has no power. Why? Because there was One who was willing to go through it for us, to taste it.

The thing that we need to realize is what we call in theology, “the kenosis doctrine,” based on Phil. 2:6-8. When Christ became a man in the incarnation He had to give up not His divinity, but His divine prerogatives, in other words, the independent use of His divinity. Even His God-consciousness had to be given up. Jesus discovered He was God only by revelation. He was not God-conscious as a baby. He had to grow up in knowledge. He had to grow up in everything because He had given up the independent use of His divinity and was made in all things like unto us (Heb. 2:17).

Therefore, He was totally God-dependent all through His earthly ministry. John 5:30 says, “I can do nothing of myself.” John 6:57 says, “I live by the Father.” See also John 8:28 and John 14:10. All these texts state very clearly that Christ was totally God-dependent. Then read Rom 6:4; Acts 2:24, 32; Eph. 1:20. All of these texts clearly tell us that it was the Father who raised Christ from the dead. Keep these two things in mind: Christ was God-dependent, and He was dependent on the Father for the resurrection. Don’t ask me what happened to His divine consciousness when He was in the grave. Where was His divine life? I don’t know. It’s a mystery. We will spend eternity studying that, but I do know one thing, it was the Father He was depending on for the resurrection just like everything else.

Do you know what the Father did on the cross? Christ cried out: “Father, Father why have you forsaken me?” What He meant is not “Why are you leaving me for three days?” but, “Why have You abandoned Me?” Do you know what that meant to Christ? It meant that the hope of the resurrection went with that abandonment. When the Father forsook Him in terms of Christ’s feeling, then the hope of the resurrection went with it. Jesus was now “treading the winepress alone.” He could no longer look on the Father with hope and assurance as far as His feelings were concerned. He felt the agony of God-abandonment, exactly what the wicked will feel when mercy no longer pleads with the guilty race.

Here is a key passage from Desire of Ages, by E.G. White, p 753: “He could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him the coming forth from the grave a conqueror or tell Him of the Father’s acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that their separation was to be eternal.” Do you realize what Christ was tempted to do on the cross as He hung there? The Father had forsaken Him. But remember, He was still God. He could have taken hold of His divinity independent of the Father, against the Father’s wishes, and come down from the cross to save Himself.

[Yong T Tay]

Dr. Waite wrote:

"An equal question is: Was it just the human mortal life that Jesus laid down or did it also include the "unborrowed immortal life within himself" that he laid down?"

Jesus either died as a whole entity being or He did not died at all. He can not just died in part. Dying in part meant He did not die as a whole, meaning some parts of Him still living. It meant He did not die at all. It was easy to explain that when He was resurrected, He was simply awaken from His sleep. Jesus was a God-Man entity person. Unless His God-Man person died together as a single entity, He was never dead. When Jesus Christ died on the Cross, His single entity of the God-Man person died as one, because His Human mortal life and His unborrowed immortal life was fused together at His incarnation. Simple logic.

As regard to how did Christ rise up from the second death in which there is no resurrection. Second death means the same as the everlasting death - no resurrection. Roman 6:23 says "The Wages of sin is death." This rule only apply to those who sin but it does not apply to a born sinner who did not sin. Any one who is born of a woman make him/her a sinner. Death can claim a born sinner, but it can not keep anyone, who did not sin himself/herself at all, in there for too long. Jesus was born of a woman, a born sinner, so death can claim Him. But Jesus never sinned Himself, so death cannot keep Him there for long. Death had to set Him free. That's how Jesus came back to life. Had Jesus committed one single sin, He would not be able to come back to life. Satan would have a complete victory.

[Aliensanctuary]

As a human, Jesus died, never to return to his human-birth body. When resurrected, he was given a new, different body, probably very similar to the ones that those of us who are chosen to become permanent members of the Kingdom of God will receive.

It's a simple matter for God, via his Spirit, to create new life, or resurrect the dead, any number of times. The great tragedy of Christ's death was this: those to whom he came to teach the Way of Life were the very ones who tortured and killed him, via the Romans. The great offense was that ignorant humans killed the Son of God who had come to help them. They would have killed God himself, if possible, because he spoke to them through Jesus.

Jesus shuddered before the pain and heartbreak of his impending torture and death, but he knew that he would rise again in a new body. He slept the sleep of death for three days, the same sleep that we will all experience when we are killed or wear out and die...

The sleep of death was indeed a separation from his Father, but now he is immortal, as we, too, can be, if we believe in Christ and follow his teachings. We must ignore the conflicting religions of the world and instead focus on what the Son of God wants us to do for him.

The Second Death will occur when everyone contaminated with the Virus of Evil are permanently destroyed by fire. Their life-records, too, are obliterated: therefore the Spirit of God cannot resurrect them by downloading a copy of their thoughts into new bodies. Christ could not have experienced the Second Death of complete annihilation because he was, in fact, resurrected.

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

An equal question is: Was it just the human mortal life that Jesus laid down or did it also include the "unborrowed immortal life within himself" that he laid down?

Quote:

“I am the resurrection, and the life” (John 11:25). He who had said, “I lay down my life, that I might take it again” (John 10:17), came forth from the grave to life that was in Himself. Humanity died; divinity did not die. In His divinity, Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death. He declares that He has life in Himself to quicken whom He will. {1SM 301.1}

I do not know if we can understand all of this there is evidence to say this is true we just need to have faith even though we do not understand everything.

Does divinity have life and intelligence?

If you say yes, then "divinity" slept in the grave with the body.

"Jesus said to Mary, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father." When He closed His eyes in death upon the cross, the soul of Christ did not go at once to heaven, as many believe, or how could His words be true--"I am not yet ascended to my Father"? The spirit of Jesus slept in the tomb with His body, and did not wing its way to heaven, there to maintain a separate existence, and to look down upon the mourning disciples embalming the body from which it had taken flight. All that comprised the life and intelligence of Jesus remained with His body in the sepulcher; and when He came forth it was as a whole being; He did not have to summon His spirit from heaven. He had power to lay down His life and to take it up again (3SP 203, 204)." {5BC 1150.6}

[miz3]

How do we humans flounder with this "Paradox" of paradoxes!

We keep trying to figure the paradox out using only the rules of this world (our box) we live in.

God is not bound by our "box" or its rules. God is infinitely outside our "box" and thus has no restrictions to bind Him.

You and I are bound by these "box" rules (be they moral, physical, etc. etc.) but God is not bound them at all even when God comes to dwell in our "box" He remains "unbounded".

This is a hard Doctrine for humans because we think we are the center of everything.

[Robert]

Does divinity have life and intelligence?

As a man Christ gave up the independent use of His divinity to His Father. As the son of man He had no advantages that is not ours....

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

Does divinity have life and intelligence?

As a man Christ gave up the independent use of His divinity to His Father. As the son of man He had no advantages that is not ours....

Where in the Bible does it say this Robert?

[Robert]

When Christ became a man in the incarnation He had to give up not His divinity, but His divine prerogatives, in other words, the independent use of His divinity. Even His God-consciousness had to be given up. Jesus discovered He was God only by revelation. He was not God-conscious as a baby. He had to grow up in knowledge. He had to grow up in everything because He had given up the independent use of His divinity and was made in all things like unto us (Heb. 2:17).

Therefore, He was totally God-dependent all through His earthly ministry. John 5:30 says, “I can do nothing of myself.” John 6:57 says, “I live by the Father.” See also John 8:28 and John 14:10. All these texts state very clearly that Christ was totally God-dependent.