miz3 Posted October 11, 2011 Posted October 11, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 ...The Bible does not say that Michael the Archangel is Jesus Christ. Seventh-day Adventists are persuaded otherwise. Check the following link out, which contains most of the Bible evidence that Michael the Archangel and Christ are one and the same Being. If you want to discuss the information or the subject further, we will need to do it on a separate discussion. I believe there's one already started. If you disagree with it, I would be interested to know what reasons you have for being opposed to the writer's evidence, reasoning, or conclusions. http://www.bibleprophecytruth.com/prophe...l-The-Archangel A whole lot of oblique inferring and oblique assumptions. Not very impressive and certainly not convincing.
Moderators John317 Posted October 11, 2011 Moderators Posted October 11, 2011 A whole lot of oblique inferring and oblique assumptions. Not very impressive and certainly not convincing. It's OK if you don't believe that Michael the Archangel and Jesus Christ are the same person. We can agree to disagree. No problem. :-) John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Members phkrause Posted October 11, 2011 Members Posted October 11, 2011 This is again just embarrassingly pure fantasy. It is better for your SDA side if you would not express your wild unBiblical fantasies. Where in the Bible does it say that the unfallen worlds and unfallen angels were naive? Why is it always whatever all others say is fantasy but yet what you claim is gospel????? Everyone should be allowed to give there opinion and not be called one thing or the other. So what does it mean in Genesis 1:26 where it says: "Let us make humankind in our image, in the likeness of ourselves;" Who do you think God is talking to????? An angel, Lucifer, or just maybe God the Father and the HS???? That's what that tells me, at least for me that is, that God the Son and God the Father and maybe God the Holy Spirit were involved. Than you have in Revelation, not sure of the verse at the moment, doesn't it say there that Jesus sits by the Father? Again this makes me believe that we have at least two distinct beings, and so for me at least it makes common sense to believe that there are three distinct beings with one purpose. phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
miz3 Posted October 11, 2011 Posted October 11, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 This is again just embarrassingly pure fantasy. It is better for your SDA side if you would not express your wild unBiblical fantasies. Where in the Bible does it say that the unfallen worlds and unfallen angels were naive? Why is it always whatever all others say is fantasy but yet what you claim is gospel????? Everyone should be allowed to give there opinion and not be called one thing or the other. So what does it mean in Genesis 1:26 where it says: "Let us make humankind in our image, in the likeness of ourselves;" Who do you think God is talking to????? An angel, Lucifer, or just maybe God the Father and the HS???? That's what that tells me, at least for me that is, that God the Son and God the Father and maybe God the Holy Spirit were involved. Than you have in Revelation, not sure of the verse at the moment, doesn't it say there that Jesus sits by the Father? Again this makes me believe that we have at least two distinct beings, and so for me at least it makes common sense to believe that there are three distinct beings with one purpose. I am not going to say that you are wrong but I did not find the Revelation text that states the Father and Jesus sit together at the same time. I find places where the Father sits on the THRONE and then the Lamb sits on the THRONE but I don't find where they are sitting side by side. If you could find that Revelation text I would like that very much. Second, I never said it was wrong for the Godhead to be "three distinct personalities". God can be whatever God wants to be. What I am saying is the Bible does not lock such a concept up tight beyond doubt. I am also saying that God and what makes God is not known to humanity. God could be using this simply as a device to communicate within the "human box". The Bible flat out does not say definitively what God is and what makes God, God. Thus, the idea that God talks to Himself or not is none of yours or mine business. God can talk to Himself if He jolly well wants to. Who has the authority to say that God cannot talk to Himself? The fact is you don't know for a fact whether God talks to Himself or not. Whether God is indeed three distinct beings or such a construct is just a communication device is also none of our human business. The FACT is we humans cannot say with any absolute definitiveness what God is or what God is. We humans just do not know. We are only guessing. Is our guess correct? I don't know but I would never ever say that we humans know for sure that their is "three as one" or any other theory. Again, the FACT is we just don't know. Now if you want to say that you have it locked up and know for sure then be my guest. I will not nor can I in good conscience go there. When Jesus Christ says that He uses His own Divinity to lay down His life I accept that at face value. I don't play games with the wording because some other source analyzed it differently and put words in the Bible's Mouth.
Members phkrause Posted October 12, 2011 Members Posted October 12, 2011 miz3, This is not what I was looking for in Revelation, but I came across this in chapter 5:1-7, 1 Next I saw in the right hand of the One sitting on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals; 2 and I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?" 3 But no one in heaven, on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or look inside it. 4 I cried and cried, because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or look inside it. 5 One of the elders said to me, "Don't cry. Look, the Lion of the tribe of Y'hudah, the Root of David, has won the right to open the scroll and its seven seals." 6 Then I saw standing there with the throne and the four living beings, in the circle of the elders, a Lamb that appeared to have been slaughtered. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the sevenfold Spirit of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of the One sitting on the throne. So who would you say is sitting on the throne? and Than who would you say is taking the scroll from the one sitting on the throne? I'd say the one sitting is God the Father and the one taking is Jesus, God the Son! Just a thought. As far as what I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm thinking that it might not be in Rev but one of the other books. Or maybe I read that from EGW, but anyway I will continue to search. phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
miz3 Posted October 12, 2011 Posted October 12, 2011 miz3, This is not what I was looking for in Revelation, but I came across this in chapter 5:1-7, 1 Next I saw in the right hand of the One sitting on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals; 2 and I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?" 3 But no one in heaven, on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or look inside it. 4 I cried and cried, because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or look inside it. 5 One of the elders said to me, "Don't cry. Look, the Lion of the tribe of Y'hudah, the Root of David, has won the right to open the scroll and its seven seals." 6 Then I saw standing there with the throne and the four living beings, in the circle of the elders, a Lamb that appeared to have been slaughtered. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the sevenfold Spirit of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of the One sitting on the throne. So who would you say is sitting on the throne? and Than who would you say is taking the scroll from the one sitting on the throne? I'd say the one sitting is God the Father and the one taking is Jesus, God the Son! Just a thought.As far as what I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm thinking that it might not be in Rev but one of the other books. Or maybe I read that from EGW, but anyway I will continue to search. You could be correct in that there are "three in one" but this by no means cinches the deal. God still be "One playing three parts". That is also a possibility. That too is not a cinch. But would account for God handing the scroll to Himself so to speak. Like I said humanity just does not know exactly what God is. It could be one of the two theories cited in the previous paragraph or something else altogether. What we do know is that GOD IS. We also know that "nothing, but nothing is impossible with God". I love knowing that God has no boundaries which means He is not limited in what He can do for me.
Moderators John317 Posted October 12, 2011 Moderators Posted October 12, 2011 There is one God in three Persons, three separate individualities but they are one in purpose. Originally Posted By: miz3 No one knows the "makeup" of God. Is it three persons in one? Is it one person with three distinct personalities? Is it....... God has revealed Himself in the Bible. For instance: Matt. 28: 19; 2 Cor. 13: 14; Matt. 3: 16,17; Ro. 1:3,4. There's God the Father. Eph. 4: 6; Phil. 2: 11. God the Son. John 20: 28; 1: 1; 8: 58; Romans 9: 5; Heb. 1: 3; Is.9:6. God the Holy Spirit. Acts 5: 3, 4; Romans 8: 26-27; Acts 28: 25. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 12, 2011 Moderators Posted October 12, 2011 You could be correct in that there are "three in one" but this by no means cinches the deal. God still be "One playing three parts". That is also a possibility. That too is not a cinch. But would account for God handing the scroll to Himself so to speak. God the Father doesn't hand himself the scroll any more than Jesus prayed to Himself in the Garden before His arrest. There are three distinct persons in the Godhead. Who was Jesus talking to when He asked, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" ? Originally Posted By: miz3 Like I said humanity just does not know exactly what God is. It could be one of the two theories cited in the previous paragraph or something else altogether. Maybe you don't know what the Bible teaches about who God is, but don't blame others for knowing better. There's no reason for being ignorant about God. Jesus promised: "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come." (John 16: 13) John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted October 13, 2011 Posted October 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: skyblue888 There is one God in three Persons, three separate individualities but they are one in purpose. Originally Posted By: miz3 No one knows the "makeup" of God. Is it three persons in one? Is it one person with three distinct personalities? Is it....... God has revealed Himself in the Bible. For instance: Matt. 28: 19; 2 Cor. 13: 14; Matt. 3: 16,17; Ro. 1:3,4. There's God the Father. Eph. 4: 6; Phil. 2: 11. God the Son. John 20: 28; 1: 1; 8: 58; Romans 9: 5; Heb. 1: 3; Is.9:6. God the Holy Spirit. Acts 5: 3, 4; Romans 8: 26-27; Acts 28: 25. This still "begs the question". You have not proved anything. We still don't know whether there is One God who portrays Himself in three forms all at the same time, or Three Separate Personalities who act in One Accord, or some other possibility beyond these two mentioned. You can cite these texts all day and all night from now until Christ returns but that still does not cinch that we actually know the make up of God. All you have done is cite "tradition" which by the way was litigated and determined by the RCC/Pope centuries ago. I have no actual problem with those who want to believe in a Trinity but we should by no means be adamant that we actually know the full make up of God because in truth we do not.
miz3 Posted October 13, 2011 Posted October 13, 2011 This is exactly what I mean when I said "you do not know God or the Power of God" as expressed by Jesus Christ when stated that "nothing is impossible with God". You have a fixed "RCC/Pope tradition" of God. This is why you think God is "restricted" and "bounded". Your picture of God is "too small". It is this view you have of God that affects all your theology and causes you to make so many errors in analysis of the Bible and what is actually saying. Because your view of God is "so small" it is clearly natural for you then to have such "human centric" views of the Bible and its message. Your god is so small that it takes "human help/choice" in order to get the human to heaven/saved. Without the assistance of the human entity your god is actually "helpless to save". Basically your view of God is that He is just a "super human" who like us is "restricted by the earthly box" but because He has a bigger mind and a bigger everything else he can do things we can't. Thus, your view of God is that He has the same "restrictions" as you and I do but He can accomplish soooo much more because of His big brain and big power. In addition, your view of God includes that this God is consumed totally by "your human definition of love" which again "restricts" what He can and cannot do. I view God as being way beyond that and having no restrictions whatsoever. When God says that He is Love God is talking about something we have no idea about. When God says He is "merciful" He is talking about something we have no idea about. When God says He can do the "impossible" I believe It! It does not matter how "ridiculous our paradoxes are" God can still do it. Thus, the God that I believe in can die on the Cross the "Second Death" and go to Hell forever and forever and at the same time raise Himself by His Own Power just as He said and continue to Live Forever and Forever. The fact is you don't believe god can do this and so you have to do "fancy dancing" with Scripture in order harmonize your god and His Word. I believe God Saves us apart from any "human help" whatsoever. I believe the human entity is lost because of their REJECTION. This is also why you have soooo much trouble with Romans chapter nine. To you its a question of "human freedom to choose" or "Calvinism/Predestination. That's the restriction you are boxed into. The God I serve is not bound by such restrictions. That is why Romans chapter nine is not a problem for me even when God "actually hardens Pharaoh's heart". God can do this and whether God has Pharaoh in Heaven or not is none of my business because who is in Heaven or not is solely God's Business. God can and does do it All! I just don't understand why "your god is soooo small"?
Lysimachus Posted October 13, 2011 Posted October 13, 2011 You write too much fluff miz3. Many of the things you could say in 2 or 3 sentences you ramble on in huge paragraphs. Basically, what you are saying is that, if all 3 powers of the heavenly Trio are just "one" (as you are not dismissing this interpretation), it means that when Jesus was praying to His Father in Gethsemane, you are leaving open the possibility that Jesus was praying to Himself! Preposterous! The texts are VERY clear that there are 3 distinct powers. Jesus is most definitely a separate person from His Father. Miz3, I'm going to tell you like it is. You are a classic example of what an "Idealist" is. The ideology inherent in the teachings of the Catholic Augustine has greatly influenced you and you don't even know it. You allegorize everything to the point that there is no definites. This is WORSE than Futurism. ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
miz3 Posted October 13, 2011 Posted October 13, 2011 You write too much fluff miz3. Many of the things you could say in 2 or 3 sentences you ramble on in huge paragraphs. Basically, what you are saying is that, if all 3 powers of the heavenly Trio are just "one" (as you are not dismissing this interpretation), it means that when Jesus was praying to His Father in Gethsemane, you are leaving open the possibility that Jesus was praying to Himself! Preposterous! The texts are VERY clear that there are 3 distinct powers. Jesus is most definitely a separate person from His Father. Miz3, I'm going to tell you like it is. You are a classic example of what an "Idealist" is. The ideology inherent in the teachings of the Catholic Augustine has greatly influenced you and you don't even know it. You allegorize everything to the point that there is no definites. This is WORSE than Futurism. Loquacious emptiness.
Robert Posted October 14, 2011 Posted October 14, 2011 The God I serve is not bound by such restrictions. That is why Romans chapter nine is not a problem for me even when God "actually hardens Pharaoh's heart". No, that's not God. God is agape. God can't sin. Force and coercion are sin. Agape does not force...it does not take over the will. Force and domination are attributes of Satan, the god of this world. Don't confuse the two!
miz3 Posted October 14, 2011 Posted October 14, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 The God I serve is not bound by such restrictions. That is why Romans chapter nine is not a problem for me even when God "actually hardens Pharaoh's heart". No, that's not God. God is agape. God can't sin. Force and coercion are sin. Agape does not force...it does not take over the will. Force and domination are attributes of Satan, the god of this world. Don't confuse the two! You are judging God by the rules and restrictions of this little sinful planet and your warped view of what "agape" really is and what "agape" really means. God is not bound by your "sinful perceptions" of what is "agape" and what is not "agape" as well as your "sinful warpedness" of what is "wrong" and what is "right". You cannot judge God by the restrictions that bind you. God is not a sinner like you and thus is not bound and gagged like you are. Force and coercion are sins for you but not for God. God states that He is a "Jealous God" but this same God commands you and I that "jealousy" is a sin. Right there God has shown you that He is not bound by the restrictions that bind you and me. God also that you and are not to take life, yet in the Bible God many times has "taken life". Did God break the Commandment? Your view is so ridiculous. The Bible as I have just shown you does not support your view of God. You have created a god (an idol) that is of your own making and not the God of the Bible. Besides God does not live in a "box". God created the "box" and/or "boxes". God is sooooo infinitely beyond those "boxes" that you cannot even begin to perceive it. Yet you talk like you fully understand God and you fully understand the boundaries of God. You have made my very point. With all your human restrictions on your god no wonder your god is soooooo small and puny. The God I serve and worship was/is not made or bound by anything, let alone human imagination. The God I serve and worship said and I quote, "Nothing is impossible with God". That literally means NO BOUNDARIES. Your made up god is an embarrassment because he is so limited. My God, the God of the Bible, can do anything without boundaries and it is NOT A SIN because God is not bound like a servant/slave to any rules whatsoever. My God is THE MASTER without any rules to rule over Him. Why is your god such a puny slave to your made up laws. You make the "laws" the "master" of your god and say if he breaks those laws that master him he would sin. My God made Law for His creation not for Himself. My God is tooooo big to be bound by law. My God is the Master of All including the Law. So when my God uses force and coercion He is not breaking any Law because He has no law that is His master. My God is the Master of All. Everything belongs to my God and He can do with what is His exactly what He wants. This is the God of the Bible. "Nothing is impossible with God". Why do you serve a phony made up god that is sooo restricted by the boundaries that you make up. You don't even as sinful human understand the "Word Agape" even on an elementary level and yet you speak as if you understand it as if you had nothing more to learn. Again I ask, How can you serve so puny a god?
Robert Posted October 14, 2011 Posted October 14, 2011 You are judging God by the rules and restrictions of this little sinful planet and your warped view of what "agape" really is and what "agape" really means. God cannot sin. God is agape. It's who He is. Outside agape is sin.
miz3 Posted October 14, 2011 Posted October 14, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 You are judging God by the rules and restrictions of this little sinful planet and your warped view of what "agape" really is and what "agape" really means. God cannot sin. God is agape. It's who He is. Outside agape is sin. I never said God could "sin". In fact God cannot sin no matter what God does because there is no law above God telling Him what He can and cannot do. You are the one that is saying "if God does such and such then God sins". You are the one asserting that there is a law above God. You are asserting then that God is not God. You are making the law to be God. Who are you to lay parameters on God? The Bible says that God has no parameters. Since God has no boundaries anything God does is clearly "not sin". Who are to "define" what is and what is not agape? Only God can and does define agape. How do you with your puny sinful brain know that when "God hardens Pharaoh's heart" that, that is not an "agape act"? You don't whether that is an "agape act" from God's perspective. Are you saying that God must behave according to your puny sinful human perspective of what "agape is"? My, my, my, how arrogant can humanity get when it thinks to define for God what "agape means" and how "agape should behave in regard to God". What you are doing even though you think you mean well is engaging the highest form of blasphemy. You are assuming to judge whether something is or is not sin for God. This is shear arrogance because you a human filled with sinful darkness presumes to determine what the Holy Undefiled Full of Light God the Creator of all(including you) can and cannot do and be. Surely you must see the error of your way.
Robert Posted October 14, 2011 Posted October 14, 2011 God cannot sin no matter what God does because there is no law above God telling Him what He can and cannot do. God loves sinners more than Himself. There's no self-love with God. He lives to serve. So build your theology around that....
Robert Posted October 14, 2011 Posted October 14, 2011 Who are to "define" what is and what is not agape? Only God can and does define agape. And He defines agape in the Bible: 1 Cor 13:4 Love never gives up. Love cares more for others than for self. Love doesn't want what it doesn't have. Love doesn't strut, Doesn't have a swelled head, 5 Doesn't force itself on others, Isn't always "me first," Doesn't fly off the handle, Doesn't keep score of the sins of others....
Robert Posted October 14, 2011 Posted October 14, 2011 God never forces the will or the conscience; but Satan’s constant resort—to gain control of those whom he cannot otherwise seduce—is compulsion by cruelty. Through fear or force he endeavors to rule the conscience and to secure homage to himself. To accomplish this, he works through both religious and secular authorities, moving them to the enforcement of human laws in defiance of the law of God. [The Great Controversy, Page 591]
Dr. Waite Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite ...Christ says that the power or authority (same word in greek) to lay down his life (immortal unborrowed life - see EGW quote previously given)and take it up again came from His Father (and not from Himself). Therefore, he did NOT use his own divinity to break death's boundaries. How can Christ's life be original, unborrowed, and underived and yet be borrowed and derived from the Father? Did Christ's life originate with the Father? If so, then it's not true that Christ's life was original. Yet Ellen White clearly says Christ's life was original and NOT derived from the Father. Ellen White also says that Christ is "self-existent." That being so, His existence by definition does not depend on, and was not derived from, the Father. In John 2: 19, 21, Jesus Christ said, "I will raise up [my body]." All three divine Persons of the Godhead raised Jesus Christ from the grave. No surprise here. They always work in harmony with each other, just as they did in the creation of the world and in the salvation of mankind. Ellen White quotes the angel, "Thy Father calls Thee." Then Ellen White says, "The Savior came forth from the grave by the life that was in Himself." DA 785. She further states that it was a fulfillment of what Christ said in John 2: 19, 21. "In His divinity, Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death" (Ibid). John: You state: "Did Christ's life originate with the Father? If so, then it's not true that Christ's life was original. Yet Ellen White clearly says Christ's life was original and NOT derived from the Father." However, EGW states: " "In him was life; and the life was the light of men." It is not physical life that is here specified, but eternal life, the life which is exclusively the property of God. The Word, who was with God, and who was God, had this life. Physical life is something which each individual received. It is not eternal or immortal; for God, the Lifegiver, takes it again. . . . But the life of Christ was unborrowed. No one can take this life from Him. "I lay it down of myself," He said. . . . This life is not inherent in man. He can possess it only through Christ. He cannot earn it; it is given him as a free gift if he will believe in Christ as his personal Saviour. "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" (John 17:3). This is the open fountain of life for the world (The SDA Bible Commentary, Ellen G. White Comments, vol. 5, p. 1130). " John, if you are given this life (original, unborrowed, and underived) as a gift through Christ, how could it be "original and not derived"?? grw
miz3 Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 God cannot sin no matter what God does because there is no law above God telling Him what He can and cannot do. God loves sinners more than Himself. There's no self-love with God. He lives to serve. So build your theology around that.... Once again you demonstrate a great lack of knowledge about God. You seem to spout what you have heard others say and you have not really read the Bible for yourself without their preconceived notions coloring your reading. Where in the Bible does it clearly say that God Loves sinners more than Himself? Please quote the text. Where does it say in the Bible that their is no self-love with God? Please, again, quote the text.
miz3 Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 God never forces the will or the conscience; but Satan’s constant resort—to gain control of those whom he cannot otherwise seduce—is compulsion by cruelty. Through fear or force he endeavors to rule the conscience and to secure homage to himself. To accomplish this, he works through both religious and secular authorities, moving them to the enforcement of human laws in defiance of the law of God. [The Great Controversy, Page 591] That is Ellen White's opinion. The Bible does not say that. Where in the Bible does it say that God never forces the will? Please quote the text. No one is more coercive than God. God basically says "if you don't do everything I say you should and you don't bow and worship me then I will throw you into Hell Fire. That is not choice that is coercion it rawest form. God says, "Obey, Worship Me or burn and suffer unknowable pain in Hell Fire while I vent my anger at you. Such words and concepts are in the Bible. Have you not read them?
Robert Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 Where in the Bible does it clearly say that God Loves sinners more than Himself?
Robert Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 When Christ became a man in the incarnation He had to give up not His divinity, but His divine prerogatives, in other words, the independent use of His divinity. Even His God-consciousness had to be given up. Jesus discovered He was God only by revelation. He was not God-conscious as a baby. He had to grow up in knowledge. He had to grow up in everything because He had given up the independent use of His divinity and was made in all things like unto us (Heb. 2:17). Therefore, He was totally God-dependent all through His earthly ministry. John 5:30 says, “I can do nothing of myself.” John 6:57 says, “I live by the Father.” See also John 8:28 and John 14:10. All these texts state very clearly that Christ was totally God-dependent. Then read Rom 6:4; Acts 2:24, 32; Eph. 1:20. All of these texts clearly tell us that it was the Father who raised Christ from the dead. Keep these two things in mind: Christ was God-dependent, and He was dependent on the Father for the resurrection. Don’t ask me what happened to His divine consciousness when He was in the grave. Where was His divine life? I don’t know. It’s a mystery. We will spend eternity studying that, but I do know one thing, it was the Father He was depending on for the resurrection just like everything else. Do you know what the Father did on the cross? Christ cried out: “Father, Father why have you forsaken me?” What He meant is not “Why are you leaving me for three days?” but, “Why have You abandoned Me?” Do you know what that meant to Christ? It meant that the hope of the resurrection went with that abandonment. When the Father forsook Him in terms of Christ’s feeling, then the hope of the resurrection went with it. Jesus was now “treading the winepress alone.” He could no longer look on the Father with hope and assurance as far as His feelings were concerned. He felt the agony of God-abandonment, exactly what the wicked will feel when mercy no longer pleads with the guilty race. Here is a key passage from Desire of Ages, by E.G. White, p 753: “He could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him the coming forth from the grave a conqueror or tell Him of the Father’s acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that their separation was to be eternal.” Do you realize what Christ was tempted to do on the cross as He hung there? The Father had forsaken Him. But remember, He was still God. He could have taken hold of His divinity independent of the Father, against the Father’s wishes, and come down from the cross to save Himself. That is exactly what the devil tried to get Him to do. In Luke 23:35-39, at least three times the devil approached Christ—once through the Roman soldiers, once through the priests, and once through the thief on the left-hand side. Then, in Matt. 27:35-46, the people also added to that temptation. The temptation was the same, “Come down from the cross and save yourself.” Can you imagine what that temptation was like? We can’t. I’m glad Desire of Ages makes that clear: “The temptation that Christ experienced can never be fully understood by men.... The withdrawal of the Divine Countenance from the Savior in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man.” Ibid. Do you know why? Because there has been no human being in this world who has really, fully, experienced the wrath of God as Christ did. He is the only man who has experienced the fullness of God-abandonment, which is the equivalent of the second death. Christ was tempted to come down from the cross and save Himself. Can you understand the temptation? The issue He faced was not to screw up His will power and say, “I’ll hold on for a few hours or for three days.” That is no sacrifice for a God who lives in eternity. The issue was good-bye to life forever, never again to see His Father, never again to go back to heaven. It meant to give up His glory, to give up His life. That was the issue. That is the curse of God. As He hung on the cross experiencing God’s curse for our sins, Jesus had to make a choice. He could not save Himself and the world at the same time. And He did make the supreme choice. He chose to die eternally that you and I may live in His place. That is what transformed the disciples. They were so shocked! They had not understood such love before as this. It is this concept of agape that turned the world upsidedown, that God not only came down for thirty-three years, but Jesus their Savior was willing to say good-bye to life forever that they may live in His place. “But God demonstrated His love that while we were still sinners Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).
Robert Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 God says, "Obey, Worship Me or burn and suffer unknowable pain in Hell Fire while I vent my anger at you. Such words and concepts are in the Bible. Have you not read them? Yes, and you've read this with the wrong mindset. This is very typical of many religious folks. I've heard it before; it goes like this: I am God - I love you, now love me back or I'll slowly burn you forever and ever. If I really thought God was like that I would be an atheist. In fact this view is why there is so much atheism.
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