Did Christ Die the Second Death

[joeb]

Yes, and you've read this with the wrong mindset.

This is very typical of many religious folks. I've heard it before; it goes like this:

I am God - I love you, now love me back or I'll slowly burn you forever and ever.

If I really thought God was like that I would be an atheist. In fact this view is why there is so much atheism.

At last, Robert, something on which you and I agree....

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Where in the Bible does it clearly say that God Loves sinners more than Himself?

Romans 5:7 For one will hardly die for a just man. Yet perhaps for a good person someone would even dare to die. 8 But God commends his own love (agape) toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Luke 22:27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.

Mark 10:44 ...whoever wants to be first must be servant of all. 45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

Quote:

Where does it say in the Bible that their is no self-love with God?

"God is love" (1 John 4:8) The Greek for "love" is agape. What is agape?

"Agape" is not self-seeking. (1 Cor 13:5) Self-love is the opposite of agape.

None of these texts say that "God loves sinners MORE THAN HIMSELF.

They say God loves sinners. But they do not say "MORE THAN HIMSELF".

As to the "agape is not self-seeking". That is your human definition. The Bible does not give that as the definition.

[miz3]

When Christ became a man in the incarnation He had to give up not His divinity, but His divine prerogatives, in other words, the independent use of His divinity. Even His God-consciousness had to be given up. Jesus discovered He was God only by revelation. He was not God-conscious as a baby. He had to grow up in knowledge. He had to grow up in everything because He had given up the independent use of His divinity and was made in all things like unto us (Heb. 2:17).

Therefore, He was totally God-dependent all through His earthly ministry. John 5:30 says, “I can do nothing of myself.” John 6:57 says, “I live by the Father.” See also John 8:28 and John 14:10. All these texts state very clearly that Christ was totally God-dependent. Then read Rom 6:4; Acts 2:24, 32; Eph. 1:20. All of these texts clearly tell us that it was the Father who raised Christ from the dead. Keep these two things in mind: Christ was God-dependent, and He was dependent on the Father for the resurrection. Don’t ask me what happened to His divine consciousness when He was in the grave. Where was His divine life? I don’t know. It’s a mystery. We will spend eternity studying that, but I do know one thing, it was the Father He was depending on for the resurrection just like everything else.

Do you know what the Father did on the cross? Christ cried out: “Father, Father why have you forsaken me?” What He meant is not “Why are you leaving me for three days?” but, “Why have You abandoned Me?” Do you know what that meant to Christ? It meant that the hope of the resurrection went with that abandonment. When the Father forsook Him in terms of Christ’s feeling, then the hope of the resurrection went with it. Jesus was now “treading the winepress alone.” He could no longer look on the Father with hope and assurance as far as His feelings were concerned. He felt the agony of God-abandonment, exactly what the wicked will feel when mercy no longer pleads with the guilty race.

Here is a key passage from Desire of Ages, by E.G. White, p 753: “He could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him the coming forth from the grave a conqueror or tell Him of the Father’s acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that their separation was to be eternal.” Do you realize what Christ was tempted to do on the cross as He hung there? The Father had forsaken Him. But remember, He was still God. He could have taken hold of His divinity independent of the Father, against the Father’s wishes, and come down from the cross to save Himself.

That is exactly what the devil tried to get Him to do. In Luke 23:35-39, at least three times the devil approached Christ—once through the Roman soldiers, once through the priests, and once through the thief on the left-hand side. Then, in Matt. 27:35-46, the people also added to that temptation. The temptation was the same, “Come down from the cross and save yourself.” Can you imagine what that temptation was like? We can’t. I’m glad Desire of Ages makes that clear: “The temptation that Christ experienced can never be fully understood by men.... The withdrawal of the Divine Countenance from the Savior in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man.” Ibid.

Do you know why? Because there has been no human being in this world who has really, fully, experienced the wrath of God as Christ did. He is the only man who has experienced the fullness of God-abandonment, which is the equivalent of the second death. Christ was tempted to come down from the cross and save Himself. Can you understand the temptation? The issue He faced was not to screw up His will power and say, “I’ll hold on for a few hours or for three days.” That is no sacrifice for a God who lives in eternity. The issue was good-bye to life forever, never again to see His Father, never again to go back to heaven. It meant to give up His glory, to give up His life. That was the issue. That is the curse of God.

As He hung on the cross experiencing God’s curse for our sins, Jesus had to make a choice. He could not save Himself and the world at the same time. And He did make the supreme choice. He chose to die eternally that you and I may live in His place. That is what transformed the disciples. They were so shocked! They had not understood such love before as this. It is this concept of agape that turned the world upsidedown, that God not only came down for thirty-three years, but Jesus their Savior was willing to say good-bye to life forever that they may live in His place. “But God demonstrated His love that while we were still sinners Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

Ellen White is entitled to have her opinion.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

God says, "Obey, Worship Me or burn and suffer unknowable pain in Hell Fire while I vent my anger at you. Such words and concepts are in the Bible. Have you not read them?

Yes, and you've read this with the wrong mindset.

This is very typical of many religious folks. I've heard it before; it goes like this:

I am God - I love you, now love me back or I'll slowly burn you forever and ever.

If I really thought God was like that I would be an atheist. In fact this view is why there is so much atheism.

Why do you think the wicked are going to burn in Hell? Or do you believe everyone will be saved and no one will burn in Hell?

If you believe the wicked will burn in Hell and suffer pain unimaginable then you have to believe that God says "obey me and love me or burn in Hell".

If you believe everyone will be saved then you believe something that is not in the Bible.

Start cranking up your "atheist engine", I think you are going to become an atheist.

[Robert]

If you believe the wicked will burn in Hell and suffer pain unimaginable then you have to believe that God says "obey me and love me or burn in Hell".

The wicked motive created from such a belief creates monsters. If I obey God because of fear my relationship with Him is a sham. Paul speaks of this in 1 Cor 13:4 If I give all I possess to the poor ..., but have not love (agape), I gain nothing (the act is meaningless). 5 Love is ... not self-seeking

You see if you give to the poor, but out of your human love (which does everything at a cost), your love is worthless. It's self love.

If I "obey" God to escape hell - or for a reward (heaven), my motive is not based in agape, it's based in self-seeking and self-love. In other words it's based in sin, disobedience.

[Robert]

Ellen White is entitled to have her opinion.

While I'm not ready to check off on everything Ellen White states (perhaps I read her wrong), I'll take her theology over yours - her opinions over yours.

[Robert]

None of these texts say that "God loves sinners MORE THAN HIMSELF"

Mark 10:44 ...whoever wants to be first must be servant of all. 45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve....

Do you live to serve? Do you (as Christ did and does) think not, plan not, live not, for yourself? Or do you live for yourself? If so you aren't producing agape - you are producing self-love, which is sin according to the spirit of the law.

There is no self-love is God's love for "God is agape". The cross forever proves the love of God where Christ was willing to lay His life down forever (that's the curse) so that His murderers could have heaven in His place.

You see in the command "love your neighbor as your love yourself" there's only one command, not two. As children of Adam we are born bent to self - we are born selfish and self-seeking. God tells us that instead of loving ourselves we are to take that love of self and love our neighbors instead. Love your neighbor as you naturally love yourself.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

If you believe the wicked will burn in Hell and suffer pain unimaginable then you have to believe that God says "obey me and love me or burn in Hell".

The wicked motive created from such a belief creates monsters. If I obey God because of fear my relationship with Him is a sham. Paul speaks of this in 1 Cor 13:4 If I give all I possess to the poor ..., but have not love (agape), I gain nothing (the act is meaningless). 5 Love is ... not self-seeking

You see if you give to the poor, but out of your human love (which does everything at a cost), your love is worthless. It's self love.

If I "obey" God to escape hell - or for a reward (heaven), my motive is not based in agape, it's based in self-seeking and self-love. In other words it's based in sin, disobedience.

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise."

Psalm 111:10.

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline."

Proverbs 1:7.

"then you will understand the fear of the LORD and find the knowledge of God."

Proverbs 2:5.

"“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding."

Proverbs 9:10.

"The fear of the LORD adds length to life, but the years of the wicked are cut short."

Proverbs 10:27.

"The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, turning a man from the snares of death."

Proverbs 14:27.

Why does God say all these "fear Him" texts? Especially the last one, Proverbs 14:27, which states "fear of the Lord" actually brings us life and we avoid death. The very thing you said was wrong is actually correct. We are to serve God out of great fear.

There is more.

"But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."

Luke 12:5.

Jesus Christ commands us to "fear God" because God and God alone can kill both the body and throw you into hell. Jesus Christ, Himself, says the same thing I said.

You had better trot out your atheist self.

I don't know what "kool-ade" you have been drinking but what ever it is it is not Biblical.

You see God is indeed about Love but God is also indeed about Fear as well.

Obey and be afraid to not obey because God will indeed as Luke chapter 12 states cast you into hell for not obeying Him.

Are you now going to become an Atheist because Jesus Christ said we are to FEAR GOD or DIE IN HEALL?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Ellen White is entitled to have her opinion.

While I'm not ready to check off on everything Ellen White states (perhaps I read her wrong), I'll take her theology over yours - her opinions over yours.

It is not my Theology and it is not my opinion.

My last post above tells you that what I said is Biblical and is the Truth.

What you have is not Biblical and not the Truth but just kool-ade human opinion.

I will take the Bible over Ellen White and your opinion both.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

None of these texts say that "God loves sinners MORE THAN HIMSELF"

Mark 10:44 ...whoever wants to be first must be servant of all. 45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve....

Do you live to serve? Do you (as Christ did and does) think not, plan not, live not, for yourself? Or do you live for yourself? If so you aren't producing agape - you are producing self-love, which is sin according to the spirit of the law.

There is no self-love is God's love for "God is agape". The cross forever proves the love of God where Christ was willing to lay His life down forever (that's the curse) so that His murderers could have heaven in His place.

You see in the command "love your neighbor as your love yourself" there's only one command, not two. As children of Adam we are born bent to self - we are born selfish and self-seeking. God tells us that instead of loving ourselves we are to take that love of self and love our neighbors instead. Love your neighbor as you naturally love yourself.

1. There is nothing in what you posted that states "God loves humans more than God loves Himself".

2. All you have stated is that God "loves". In that we have no quarrel. I agree God is/has "Love".

3. However, God is not just "love" God is also hate.

4. God also rules by FEAR. See my texts in an earlier post that proves that.

5. I agree that for you and I to have "self-love" is a sin. It is not however a sin for God to have "self-love". It is also not a sin for God to rule by FEAR.

The rules apply to us but they do not apply to God.

[Robert]

Are you now going to become an Atheist because Jesus Christ said we are to FEAR GOD?

I don't fear God. I fear being without God.

[Robert]

You see God is indeed about Love but God is also indeed about Fear as well.

You definitely misunderstand God.

[Robert]

It is not my Theology and it is not my opinion.

I have to disagree with you. It's your opinion based on your limited view of God.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Are you now going to become an Atheist because Jesus Christ said we are to FEAR GOD?

I don't fear God. I fear being without God.

The Bible says you should FEAR God. You apparently don't care what the Bible commands you just want to stick to your little unBiblical picture of God.

That is sooo sad.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

You see God is indeed about Love but God is also indeed about Fear as well.

You definitely misunderstand God.

The Bible says I am correct as we have documented.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

It is not my Theology and it is not my opinion.

I have to disagree with you. It's your opinion based on your limited view of God.

It cannot be my opinion because I didn't say God is about FEAR. The Bible says God is about FEAR.

You admit that you disagree with the Bible. It is not me that you fight but God and His Word is what you disagree with.

[Robert]

The Bible says you should FEAR God.

No, your interpretation insists that I should fear God. I reject your version; I don't fear God.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

The Bible says you should FEAR God.

No, your interpretation insists that I should fear God. I reject your version; I don't fear God.

Whatever.

[Robert]

Maybe fear the law because it justly condemns us to the eternal grave. That's the only sense I see "fear". Fear being under law.

Gal 3:10 "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." ....16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. 19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. 21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before the faith (Jesus) came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that the faith (Jesus) has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

[miz3]

Maybe fear the law because it justly condemns us to the eternal grave. That's the only sense I see "fear". Fear being under law.

Gal 3:10 "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." ....16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. 19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. 21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before the faith (Jesus) came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that the faith (Jesus) has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

This does not help your failed position.

[Robert]

This does not help your failed position.

No Miz3, my position isn't failed. It's your theology (which is very typical view) that is instrumental in creating agnostics. I've talked to many of them and one key theme is central:

Why would I want to believe in a god who acts more cruel then Hitler or a god who says don't do as I do, do as I say?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

This does not help your failed position.

No Miz3, my position isn't failed. It's your theology (which is very typical view) that is instrumental in creating agnostics. I've talked to many of them and one key theme is central:

Why would I want to believe in a god who acts more cruel then Hitler or a god who says don't do as I do, do as I say?

Why then does the Bible say that we should "fear" God?

Why does the Bible say on numerous occasions that God hates human people?

You seem to ignore these Biblical FACTS in order to avoid the Truth and continue to prop up you erroneous position. Why do ignore and even reject the Biblical FACTS I have presented?

[John317]

Why then does the Bible say that we should "fear" God?

It's talking about reverencing and respecting God. It isn't talking about being scared of Him. The only ones who should be afraid of God are those who deliberately continue to disobey Him. They need to realize the fact that one day God will utterly destroy all sin and unrepentent sinners.

Originally Posted By: miz3

Why does the Bible say on numerous occasions that God hates human people?

Again, God hates sin and rebellion, but not the people. He loves all people and sent Christ to die for them. God did not hate the people destroyed in the Flood, nor the people destroyed in Sodom. He did, however, hate their actions and sins.

Rev. 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deedsds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

Rev.2:15-- So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

[Parade Orange]

JOHN i have a feelin some are happy just arguing

the facts may take that pleasure away

no offence folks!;)

[BobRyan]

In Exodus 20 we see the kind of fear God is talking about - their "knees were shaking" as the saw the cloud, the fire, the loud trumpets, the thundering voice of God from Sinai. They said "let not God speak to us any more lest we die".

Moses said "fear not" for God has set this whole thing up so that the "fear of God" would be with you and you would not sin.

In Isaiah 8 God says "do not fear or be in dread of that which your pagan neighbors fear or are in dread. Rather let Me be your fear, and let Me be your dread".

In Matt 10:27-28 Jesus said "do not Fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul, rather fear Him who can destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".

in Christ,

Bob