Did Christ Die the Second Death

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

None of these texts say that "God loves sinners MORE THAN HIMSELF.

They say God loves sinners. But they do not say "MORE THAN HIMSELF".

There are many texts which show that God puts the welfare of others before Himself. In other words, the Bible gives convincing evidence that God is unselfish.

John 3: 16 is one of the best examples. He gave up His only Son in order to save people who were in rebellion against Him. Someone who loves Himself more than others wouldn't do that. Jesus didn't leave the glory of heaven to come here because God loves Himself more than He loves us. His actions prove that God loves us with an infinite love.

Originally Posted By: miz3

As to the "agape is not self-seeking". That is your human definition. The Bible does not give that as the definition.

NKJV--1 Cor. 13:--

"[Agape/love]does not behave rudely, does not seek its own..."

God's love is not self-seeking.

The text John 3:16-18 does not show that God cares more about himself than God cares about Himself. It only shows that God Loves. That is it.

Also in another thread you cited Ellen White where she says "it was a struggle for the Father to give up His Son". Does this statement sound like a God who loves others more than Himself. I use this because I know that Ellen White is scripture for you.

Does this mean that Ellen White disagrees with the Bible? Sounds to me like you are trying to play both sides of the street by believing it was a struggle for God to give up His Son and then saying that in the Bible God loves others more than Himself even though the Bible does not actually say this.

[John317]

The Greek word is phobeomai (Strongs# 5399). Greek-English lexions give "to fear," "to reverence," "to fear reverentially," "to respect," "to stand in awe of," as definitons.

Originally Posted By: miz3

By the way "Strong" is not the only translator nor is he the "last word" in translation.

Why do you say this about Strong?

I did not imply that Strong is the only translator or that he is the last word in translation.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

In Matt 10:27-28 Jesus said "do not Fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul, rather fear Him who can destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".

....As to Matthew chapter ten God is the only One who can kill BOTH. Thus, we have a COMMAND FROM JESUS CHRIST TO BE AFRAID OF GOD because God can kill both the body and the soul.

Jesus' command is to fear God instead of fearing people. But Jesus is not telling us merely to be afraid of God. Fearing God won't save anyone unless it leads to repentence and faith in Him.

What was the attitude of people in the Bible who knew God the best? Were they frightened of God?

Among the ones who have known God the best are Enoch,Job, Moses, David, Isaiah, and Jesus.

And since Jesus is just like the Father, the disciples also got to know God in Christ very well.

Do we see any evidence that these people were scared or frightened of God?

Isaiah and Job certainly became aware of their sinfulness, but their conviction of sin caused them to repent and put their confidence in God.

Were the disciples scared of Jesus? They were in awe of Him and they reverenced, worshipped and loved Him, but I don't know of any who were actually frightened of Him.

The Jewish leaders both hated and feared Him:

Mark 11:15-18

And they came to Jerusalem. And he entered the temple and began to drive out those who sold and those who bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons. [16] And he would not allow anyone to carry anything through the temple. [17] And he was teaching them and saying to them, "Is it not written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations'? But you have made it a den of robbers." [18] And the chief priests and the scribes heard it and were seeking a way to destroy him, for they feared him, because all the crowd was astonished at his teaching.

NOTE: Fear itself will not save anyone. The Jewish leaders feared Christ but their fear didn't lead them to the right response-- repentence, faith, and love. Instead, their fear led them to kill the innocent Son of God.

The answer John317 is "yes they were all afraid God". They also "loved" God as well because of God's mercy, love, longsuffering, etc.

Everyone of God's servants that you mentioned was most definitely afraid of God because they were sinners. That is when we are to fear. That is what Christ meant when He said "fear the One who can kill the body and the soul".

We sinners should indeed be afraid of the Almighty God. No one is saying we should be "afraid if we obey and are not sinful". However! Are you perfect John317? Are you at the place where you are not sinful in anyway shape or form and do not commit sin at all? If you are at that place then you have no need to "fear" God.

If you are not at that place, which I suspect you are not, then indeed you should "fear the Almighty God" because your polluted self is of the most horrid nature to God and God destroys anything that even has the taint of sin.

You John317 cannot be separated from your sin and sinfulness. Thus, it is a false statement made by some human hoping to avoid feeling guilty when they say, "god loves the sinner but hates the sin". This is not a Biblical truth it is a human construction.

This statement is made to "separate the sin from the sinner" which the Bible does not teach is true. The Bible teaches that sin and sinner are one and the same.

Thus, you should "fear" God because God will destroy both "sin and sinners" in hell.

Do you believe John317 that everyone will eventually be saved and go to Heaven? If God destroys only the sin but not the sinner because He hates one and not the other, as you assert, then you by default believe that ALL HUMANS WILL BE SAVED.

Such a belief John317 is NOT BIBLICAL.

[miz3]

The fear of the Lord is the "beginning of Wisdom" because it is the point where we finally understand just what we would need to stand in the presence of a Holy, Just, Righteous all-knowing God -- a Savior. Even God's love inspires fear because of the contrast between his pure Love and your own depths of selfishness.

It is like being told that you are really the close blood relative of the sovereign of your nation, your planet, your galaxy... your universe!!

Walking through the high and lofty halls of the palace of the great Sovereign King, footsteps echoing as you go... it is no wonder that God tells Moses to take of his shoes - for the place upon which he stands is "Holy Ground".

It is no wonder that the disciple that knew Him best - falls as a dead man - when in the presence of an Angel of God.

in Christ,

Bob

Superb point.

[John317]

The text John 3:16-18 does not show that God cares more about himself than God cares about Himself. It only shows that God Loves. That is it.

It was God Himself in the person of Jesus Christ who came here and died for us. If a mother dies to protect the life of her child, it shows that the mother valued her child's life more than her own. It shows that she not only loves but that she loves with all her heart. That is the significance of what God did in sending His only Son to come here.

Originally Posted By: miz3

Also in another thread you cited Ellen White where she says "it was a struggle for the Father to give up His Son". Does this statement sound like a God who loves others more than Himself.

What would you think if it said that "it was no struggle for God to give up His Son? It was an easy choice. God made the decision without hardly even thinking about it."

Would this give you some insight into His profound love for His Son? Or would it show that perhaps God didn't love His Son all that much?

Originally Posted By: miz3

Does this mean that Ellen White disagrees with the Bible? Sounds to me like you are trying to play both sides of the street by believing it was a struggle for God to give up His Son and then saying that in the Bible God loves others more than Himself even though the Bible does not actually say this.

I think this means that you have only a superficial grasp of what is being said in John 3:16 and in Ellen White's writings.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Not relevant because no one is saying that God does not Love.

In addition these texts do not counter the texts I cited that clearly say:

1. God hates actual humans.

2. Humans are to FEAR GOD.

While your point #2 can be supported - your point 1 cannot.

For God says that He has "no pleasure in the death of ANYONE"

in fact He says that "HE is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance". 2Peter 3.

Christ said that He "draws ALL MANKIND unto Him" John 12:32.

John says that Jesus was the "Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the whole WORLD" 1john 2:2.

God is in fact "dying" to save mankind rather than arbitrarily loving some and hating others.

in Christ,

Bob

I never, ever said that God hates ALL HUMANS. Look at number one again. The word "ALL" is no where to found or implied. God did in fact "hate" human persons. See that list of Bible texts that I gave earlier and will give you all again.

Thanks for asking about this because it is important whether I am saying all humans or selected humans.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: John317

The Greek word is phobeomai (Strongs# 5399). Greek-English lexions give "to fear," "to reverence," "to fear reverentially," "to respect," "to stand in awe of," as definitons.

Originally Posted By: miz3

By the way "Strong" is not the only translator nor is he the "last word" in translation.

Why do you say this about Strong?

I did not imply that Strong is the only translator or that he is the last word in translation.

Then John317 don't bring him up as if we need to massage the word "fear".

Accept exactly what the Bible says when it uses the word "fear" instead of trying to massage it to mean something else (something else that is not fear).

I think you have a problem. You need to correct this problem. I will pray that God will help you overcome this problem of trying to make something other than what it actually is.

[miz3]

What would you think if it said that "it was no struggle for God to give up His Son? It was an easy choice. God made the decision without hardly even thinking about it."

Would this give you some insight into His profound love for His Son? Or would it show that perhaps God didn't love His Son all that much?

Then it would show that God loved humans more than He loved Himself. It would show that although God loved His Son He loved humans more which is what you are asserting.

Surely you see how ridiculous your logic is?

Jesus Christ is God Himself. Jesus Christ Himself said so when He claimed that "He and the Father are One".

Now don't go and try to massage what being "One" means. It means exactly what it says.

[miz3]

Does this mean that Ellen White disagrees with the Bible? Sounds to me like you are trying to play both sides of the street by believing it was a struggle for God to give up His Son and then saying that in the Bible God loves others more than Himself even though the Bible does not actually say this.

[John317]

Then John317 don't bring him up as if we need to massage the word "fear".

Accept exactly what the Bible says when it uses the word "fear" instead of trying to massage it to mean something else (something else that is not fear).

Your posts and arguments are full of such ignorant nonsense.

How is looking at, and discussing, the original language of the Bible trying to make a verse say something that it doesn't actually say?

[John317]

I never, ever said that God hates ALL HUMANS.

Where did Bob claim that you said God hates ALL humans?

Bob is denying that God hates any humans.

[miz3]

For John317 and all those who wanted me to repost those texts that say we are to "fear" God here they are again.

If you believe the wicked will burn in Hell and suffer pain unimaginable then you have to believe that God says "obey me and love me or burn in Hell".

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise."

Psalm 111:10.

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline."

Proverbs 1:7.

"then you will understand the fear of the LORD and find the knowledge of God."

Proverbs 2:5.

"“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding."

Proverbs 9:10.

"The fear of the LORD adds length to life, but the years of the wicked are cut short."

Proverbs 10:27.

"The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, turning a man from the snares of death."

Proverbs 14:27.

Why does God say all these "fear Him" texts? Especially the last one, Proverbs 14:27, which states "fear of the Lord" actually brings us life and we avoid death. The very thing you said was wrong is actually correct. We are to serve God out of great fear.

There is more.

"But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."

Luke 12:5.

Jesus Christ commands us to "fear God" because God and God alone can kill both the body and throw you into hell. Jesus Christ, Himself, says the same thing I said.

You see God is indeed about Love but God is also indeed about Fear as well.

Obey and be afraid to not obey because God will indeed as Luke chapter 12 states cast you into hell for not obeying Him.

[John317]

...Do you believe John317 that everyone will eventually be saved and go to Heaven?

No, of course not.

Originally Posted By: miz3

If God destroys only the sin but not the sinner because He hates one and not the other, as you assert, then you by default believe that ALL HUMANS WILL BE SAVED.

Talk about confusion. I don't know how you arrive at that conclusion.

Did I ever say God will not destroy the unrepentent sinner who continues to hold on to His sins?

God wants to separate sin from the sinner so the sinner can be saved, but if we persist in holding on to sin, then when God destroys sin, He will have to destroy the sinner as well. The purpose of the sanctuary service is to illustrate how God separates sin from us and destroys sin without destroying the sinner. It also illustrates what will happen to those who persist in their sins.

[John317]

The Greek word is phobeomai (Strongs# 5399). Greek-English lexions give "to fear," "to reverence," "to fear reverentially," "to respect," "to stand in awe of," as definitons.

Consider its use in the following verses:

Mark 6:20

for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man...

NOTE: Was Herod actually scared or frightened of John?

Luke 1:50

And his mercy is for those who fear him

from generation to generation.

NOTE: Is God's mercy only for those who are frightened, or scared, of Him?

Acts 10:2

a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God.

NOTE: Is this verse telling us that this devout man and his family were afraid of God?

Ephes. 5:33

However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

NOTE: Did Paul tell wives that they are to be afraid of their husband? (The Greek word is the same as in the previous verses.)

Rev. 11:18

The nations raged,

but your wrath came,

and the time for the dead to be judged,

and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,

and those who fear your name,

both small and great,

and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."

NOTE: Is this verse referring to those who are fightened of God's name? Or do they reverence and respect God's name?

Romans 11:20

That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe.

NOTE: "stand in awe" is translated from the same Greek word as "fear" and "respect" in the previous verses.

At Rev. 14: 7, God's New Covenant reads, "'Stand in awe of God and give due honor to Him...'" (Translated by Heinz W. Cassirer)

The Simple English Bible renders it: "'Respect God and give Him glory...'"

Phillips Modern English has, "'Reverence God, and give glory to Him..."

NOTE: You can see in the above three translations of Rev. 14: 7 that the Greek word, phobeomai, can be translated as "stand in awe," "respect," and "reverence."

[John317]

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise."

Psalm 111:10.

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline."

Proverbs 1:7.

"then you will understand the fear of the LORD and find the knowledge of God."

Proverbs 2:5.

"“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding."

Proverbs 9:10.

"The fear of the LORD adds length to life, but the years of the wicked are cut short."

Proverbs 10:27.

"The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, turning a man from the snares of death."

Proverbs 14:27.

..... We are to serve God out of great fear.

So, are you saying that the reason you serve and obey God is that you are frightened of Him?

Do you honestly think God wants you to be afraid of Him, in the sense of being terrified and shaking in your boots?

If so, then I believe you are completely misunderstanding those verses.

There may be a time when people need to be frightened of God, but that isn't the way God wants mature Christians to feel or think about Him.

Think of the difference between the way Moses thought of God and the way the Israelites at Mt. Sinai thought of Him. See Exodus 19 and 2: 19, 20.

The people were exceedingly fearful of God. But what did Moses say?

Moses said to the people, "Do not fear, for God has come to test you, that the fear of him may be before you, that you may not sin." Exodus 20: 20

Moses told the people not to be afraid of God.

But then what did he mean when he said "... that the fear of Him may be before you..."?

Does it mean God wanted the people to be terrified of Him?

[Robert]

I think you have a problem. You need to correct this problem. I will pray that God will help you overcome this problem of trying to make something other than what it actually is.

This is a self-righteous attitude. Stop it please!

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

...Do you believe John317 that everyone will eventually be saved and go to Heaven?

No, of course not.

Originally Posted By: miz3

If God destroys only the sin but not the sinner because He hates one and not the other, as you assert, then you by default believe that ALL HUMANS WILL BE SAVED.

Talk about confusion. I don't know how you arrive at that conclusion.

Did I ever say God will not destroy the unrepentent sinner who continues to hold on to His sins?

God wants to separate sin from the sinner so the sinner can be saved, but if we persist in holding on to sin, then when God destroys sin, He will have to destroy the sinner as well. The purpose of the sanctuary service is to illustrate how God separates sin from us and destroys sin without destroying the sinner. It also illustrates what will happen to those who persist in their sins.

If you believe the "human created" phrase which I believe you quoted, "that Christ hates the sin but loves the sinner", then you are separating the human from their sin. God does not do this nor is this Biblical. Yet it is a common phrase among SDA in order to make the "message that SDA bring" more palatable to the nonSDA.

As such there is only one conclusion. God destroys the sin in every person and then saves every person because the "sinner" then is not responsible for their sin.

Yes I agree with you that your position on this is indeed "confusion".

Why do you cling to such pagan phrases as "god hates the sin but loves the sinner" which is unBiblical?

[miz3]

The Greek word is phobeomai (Strongs# 5399). Greek-English lexions give "to fear," "to reverence," "to fear reverentially," "to respect," "to stand in awe of," as definitons.

Consider its use in the following verses:

Mark 6:20

for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man...

NOTE: Was Herod actually scared or frightened of John?

Luke 1:50

And his mercy is for those who fear him

from generation to generation.

NOTE: Is God's mercy only for those who are frightened, or scared, of Him?

Acts 10:2

a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God.

NOTE: Is this verse telling us that this devout man and his family were afraid of God?

Ephes. 5:33

However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

NOTE: Did Paul tell wives that they are to be afraid of their husband? (The Greek word is the same as in the previous verses.)

Rev. 11:18

The nations raged,

but your wrath came,

and the time for the dead to be judged,

and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,

and those who fear your name,

both small and great,

and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."

NOTE: Is this verse referring to those who are fightened of God's name? Or do they reverence and respect God's name?

Romans 11:20

That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe.

NOTE: "stand in awe" is translated from the same Greek word as "fear" and "respect" in the previous verses.

At Rev. 14: 7, God's New Covenant reads, "'Stand in awe of God and give due honor to Him...'" (Translated by Heinz W. Cassirer)

The Simple English Bible renders it: "'Respect God and give Him glory...'"

Phillips Modern English has, "'Reverence God, and give glory to Him..."

NOTE: You can see in the above three translations of Rev. 14: 7 that the Greek word, phobeomai, can be translated as "stand in awe," "respect," and "reverence."

1. Yes, Herod was actually scared of John the Baptist. That is exactly what the Bible says. That is why Herod put John the Baptist in jail so that John would not continue to do Herod damage.

2. Yes Luke 1:50 says that God will indeed show mercy to those who are scared of Him. We should be scared of God who can "kill the body and the soul".

3. Acts 10:2 the answer again is "yes".

4. In Ephesians 5:33 the answer is no the wives should not be afraid of their husbands. In this case the Translators used the correct word "respect" while in the other cases as above they correctly used the word "fear" even though both possibilities were open to them.

5. In Revelation 11:18 the mention of God's Name does strike "fear" because God's Name is His Person and God as we have shown in the Bible commands us to "fear" Him.

Is "fear" the only response to the hearing of God's Name? The answer to that question is a resounding, NO!

Other responses including "fear" would be "love", "joy", "relief", etc. Just like when you hear the name of your wife who you love with the greatest of love. You don't get only one response to the mention of her name. You get multiple responses.

The same is true for the child at the mention of the parent's name. It evokes multiple responses including "fear", "love", "respect", etc.

The same is true of God and Jesus Christ. The human has multiple responses toward the Name of God.

6. OK, so. That does NOT mean that awe and fear are exactly the same in meaning or interchangeable.

7. Revelation 14:7 nothing new here.

The translators got it right in each case. Just because the Greeks use the word phobeomai for multiple uses does not mean that "all those uses mean exactly the same thing" and thus are interchangeable.

They are NOT INTERCHANGEABLE. That is why the translators used "fear" in some cases because it means "fear" and "respect" in other cases because it means "respect".

Apparently the Greek language expects you to understand which is which depending on the context or the situation. Many languages use this tactic.

For you to assume that the varying words are "interchangeable" in the Greek language is just not so. They certainly are not interchangeable in the English Language and the translators know this and that is why they made the differences with each text.

This shows that you have a preconceived notion about God and then try and fit the Bible into that "human made mold". Such preconceptions lead inevitably to wrong conclusions. I have noticed that you do this a lot.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise."

Psalm 111:10.

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline."

Proverbs 1:7.

"then you will understand the fear of the LORD and find the knowledge of God."

Proverbs 2:5.

"“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding."

Proverbs 9:10.

"The fear of the LORD adds length to life, but the years of the wicked are cut short."

Proverbs 10:27.

"The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, turning a man from the snares of death."

Proverbs 14:27.

..... We are to serve God out of great fear.

So, are you saying that the reason you serve and obey God is that you are frightened of Him?

Do you honestly think God wants you to be afraid of Him, in the sense of being terrified and shaking in your boots?

If so, then I believe you are completely misunderstanding those verses.

There may be a time when people need to be frightened of God, but that isn't the way God wants mature Christians to feel or think about Him.

Think of the difference between the way Moses thought of God and the way the Israelites at Mt. Sinai thought of Him. See Exodus 19 and 2: 19, 20.

The people were exceedingly fearful of God. But what did Moses say?

Moses said to the people, "Do not fear, for God has come to test you, that the fear of him may be before you, that you may not sin." Exodus 20: 20

Moses told the people not to be afraid of God.

But then what did he mean when he said "... that the fear of Him may be before you..."?

Does it mean God wanted the people to be terrified of Him?

Surely you understand the concept of "fear of God" from the texts I quoted above.

It indeed means that we "sinners" and we are "sinners", (unless you John317 have attained a perfection different from the rest of us) are to indeed to be "afraid", to be "scared" of the Almighty God who "can kill the body as well as the soul".

Until you are perfect that "fear of the Lord" is meant to bring continually and constantly to God and Jesus Christ for "mercy" so that God and Jesus Christ can change you and make you perfect. Until the last spec of sin is removed from you then and only then can you not "fear". As long as their is a spec of sin in you, you should "fear" and be "scared" of God and His Name because Hell awaits you if you have even one spec of sin in you.

Exodus 20:20 fits this concept perfectly. Do you see it?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

I think you have a problem. You need to correct this problem. I will pray that God will help you overcome this problem of trying to make something other than what it actually is.

This is a self-righteous attitude. Stop it please!

When I made this statement it was NOT DIRECTED AT YOU, ROBERT.

However, if you think that you also have this same problem then prayers are also needed for you as well.

[Alchemy]

Yes...absolutely.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

...To suggest that Christ died the 2nd death is blasphemy / is along the same lines of saying Christ could have sinned.

I agreed with your previous statement, but I cannot agree with this.

I believe Christ died the second death and that He could have chosen to sin. Christ did not do what He did because He had no choice. He could have come down off the cross. He could have decided that the cost was too much to pay for humanity. Christ was a free agent.

This is one reason out of many how I know the SDA's do NOT accept the Doctrine of the Trinity...

...It's as obvious of a contrast between the night and day.

1st,

The realationship between the Father & Son has always ( Eternally ) been that way...

...The Incarnation of the Word only meant in this case that Christ continued His same relationship.

...In the flesh THAT He had eternally had.

...The "NATURE" of the Word is what makes the Word God - not the relationship.

2nd,

We have already covered this faulty logic previously - what you are also saying when you affirm this heresy...

...Is that "God" could have lost the war in heaven with Lucifer.

...God could have been tempted and sinned prior to the Incarnation.

...Christ could have sunk and drowned when He walked on water.

Rev 12,6

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven

Numbers 14,22

Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice

Matthew 14,25

And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea

These types of things were all done NOT to demonstrate God could possibly fail...

...They were done so everyone would know it was ABSOLUTELY God.

...IF Christ sank and drowned OR God lost the war in heaven OR failed temptation.

...It would SIMPLY mean He wasn't God in the first place.

It is absolutely impossible to affirm the Doctrine of the Trinity...

...While at the same time affirming God is passible.

...It is saying God is "CONDITIONAL" - as in only exists conditionally!

...It's as heretical as it gets.

If Jesus is a "Free moral Agent" than the Father and Holy Ghost are as well...

...Such a teaching rejects EVERYTHING the Sacred Scriptures have ever said about God.

...It is very easy to see that Ellen White was 100% against the Trinity.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

...To suggest that Christ died the 2nd death is blasphemy / is along the same lines of saying Christ could have sinned.

I agreed with your previous statement, but I cannot agree with this.

I believe Christ died the second death and that He could have chosen to sin. Christ did not do what He did because He had no choice. He could have come down off the cross. He could have decided that the cost was too much to pay for humanity. Christ was a free agent.

[Robert]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made....14 And the Word (Christ as God) became flesh (the Son of mankind) and dwelt among....

Phil 2:5 Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing (set aside His divinity), taking the form of a servant,being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross....

Clearly, Christ set aside His divinity, became a son of humanity. Therefore He could have failed. It was possible. However, before the incarnation the Trinity knew He wouldn't because they can see the future.

[John317]

If you believe the "human created" phrase which I believe you quoted, "that Christ hates the sin but loves the sinner", then you are separating the human from their sin. God does not do this nor is this Biblical. Yet it is a common phrase among SDA in order to make the "message that SDA bring" more palatable to the nonSDA.

As such there is only one conclusion. God destroys the sin in every person and then saves every person because the "sinner" then is not responsible for their sin.

Only shows, again, how confused you are.

The SDA doctrines are very clear that God will not save all humanity. In fact, the Bibe is plain as day that most of the people who've ever lived will be lost.

SDAs believe that those who cling to their sins will be utterly destroyed.

God will never force people to separate from their sins.

The sanctuary message that SDAs teach shows the way people must separate sin from themselves. It is through washing their robes in the blood of the Lamb.