miz3 Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite CASE IS NOT SETTLED! JESUS CHRIST STATES THIS: "I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." John 10:14-18 NOTE: THE POWER OR AUTHORITY TO LAY IT DOWN AND TO TAKE IT AGAIN WAS BY THE COMMANDMENT OF HIS FATHER NOT HIS OWN COMMANDMENT Jesus Christ also said that He and the Father were "ONE". That means in not separate. Thus a command from the Father is the same as the command from the Son and visa versa. There is no difference. Whether it is a command from the Father or a command of His Own it is the SAME COMMAND! You do not understand how God works or how God is. God is ONE. See Deuteronomy chapter six. Thus the case is settled.
miz3 Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 Originally Posted By: RLH By saying that Lucifer misunderstood, or was confused, you are giving a reason for sin. And EGW says there isn't one. Lucifer has misunderstood a lot of things. But that is not the cause of sin. Lucifer's misunderstandings have been the result of his jealousy and envy and unwillingness to accept Christ for who He really is, God. His jealousy and envy have blinded him to the truth. That's the nature of sin; it deceives. Nowhere in the Bible does it state that satan was confused. The Bible always pictures satan as fully being a "liar and a murderer from the beginning". Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 both portray satan as knowing full well what he was doing and what satan hoped to accomplish.
skyblue888 Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 There is one God in three Persons, three separate individualities but they are one in purpose. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
miz3 Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 Quote: Satan thought how angels had obeyed his command with pleasurable alacrity. Were not his garments light and beautiful? Why should Christ thus be honored before himself? {1SP 18.1 Notice that this is what Lucifer was thinking. He couldn't understand why Christ was so honored. It shows that Lucifer didn't know that Christ was God. He believed that Michael the Archangel had been given the position of being next to God. He didn't realize that Christ's position of being equal with God had never changed. Lucifer was consumed with envy and hatred for the One who he thought had been put in the place that he himself should have had. None of this is Biblical. This is the fantasy of the human mind only. In this fabrication satan must have been a real dummy. If satan was "next to throne of God" as Ellen White states satan would have known from the "beginning" that Jesus Christ was indeed God just as the Father was God. Ellen White is quite contradictory in her views. She says satan knew more about God than anyone then states that satan was not certain about the role of Christ. This is pure none sense. How can someone so intelligent be soooo dumb (this is before satan sinned according to Ellen White)?
miz3 Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 There is one God in three Persons, three separate individualities but they are one in purpose. sky Not Biblical. You don't know the make up of God. God is God. That is it.
Moderators John317 Posted October 10, 2011 Moderators Posted October 10, 2011 ... his name means LIGHT BEARER walking around bearing GODS GLORY! IMAGINE what glory he walked around in REFLECTING ETERNAL GOD it got to his head Yes, exactly. Of all the created beings, Lucifer stood closest to God. His open rebellion took place in the full light of God's character of love. That's why God could do no more for him. There was nothing more that God could reveal to Lucifer that would persuade him to repent and change. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 Originally Posted By: Parade Orange ... his name means LIGHT BEARER walking around bearing GODS GLORY! IMAGINE what glory he walked around in REFLECTING ETERNAL GOD it got to his head Yes, exactly. Of all the created beings, Lucifer stood closest to God. His open rebellion took place in the full light of God's character of love. That's why God could do no more for him. There was nothing more that God could reveal to Lucifer that would persuade him to repent and change. So satan wasn't confused. However, you said satan was confused. Which is it? Typical confusion from the EGW writings.
Moderators John317 Posted October 10, 2011 Moderators Posted October 10, 2011 There is one God in three Persons, three separate individualities but they are one in purpose. Originally Posted By: miz3 Not Biblical. You don't know the make up of God. God is God. That is it. Yes, we are talking about one God. We're not talking about three different Gods. But do you believe Christ is His Father? Are the Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit all the same Person? I believe the Bible shows that when Christ on earth prayed to the Father, He was not praying to Himself but to the Father in heaven. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 10, 2011 Moderators Posted October 10, 2011 Of all the created beings, Lucifer stood closest to God. His open rebellion took place in the full light of God's character of love. That's why God could do no more for him. There was nothing more that God could reveal to Lucifer that would persuade him to repent and change. Originally Posted By: miz3 So satan wasn't confused. However, you said satan was confused. Which is it? Typical confusion from the EGW writings. Lucifer was confused not over God's character of love but over the identity of Michael the Archangel. He did not know that Michael was the self-existent God. He thought Michael had been appointed by God to be in His position. He didn't realize that Michael, or Christ, was the eternal, omnipotent, self-existent Son, who had always been in close fellowship with the Father. He was jealous because he thought Christ was put in the place where Lucifer belonged. Lucifer thought this despite His having been told over and over again that his ideas about Christ were false. His sins of jealousy, envy, and hatred for God's Son obscured his view and kept him from seeing the truth. But that is always the result of cherishing sin. If Lucifer had repented and let go of his envy and jealousy, he would have seen the truth that God and the unfallen angels had been trying to show him. Instead, Lucifer persisted in his sins and even began to aspire to be equal with God Himself. He hated Christ and wanted to conquer him. Imagine the insanity of a creature fighting to defeat God!! John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 10, 2011 Moderators Posted October 10, 2011 ...In this fabrication satan must have been a real dummy. If satan was "next to throne of God" as Ellen White states satan would have known from the "beginning" that Jesus Christ was indeed God just as the Father was God. No, Lucifer was created as one of the most intelligent creatures that God ever made. His intelligence was not the problem. The problem was sin. Cherished sin makes even the most intelligent person do stupid things. It caused Satan to do stupid things too. Look at what Satan did in the Wilderness when He tried to get the Son of God to join him in his rebellion against God. Look at what Satan did at the cross when He thought He could destroy the Son of God. Why did He inspire people to kill the Son of God? We could say those things were also "dumb," couldn't we? In fact, isn't rebellion against the omnipotent, eternal God a really "dumb" thing to do? Lucifer should have known from the beginning that it would result in his complete and utter defeat and destruction. Yet he went ahead with it. That's the nature of sin-- it causes people who keeping holding on to it to do a lot of "dumb" things. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted October 11, 2011 Posted October 11, 2011 Originally Posted By: skyblue888 There is one God in three Persons, three separate individualities but they are one in purpose. Originally Posted By: miz3 Not Biblical. You don't know the make up of God. God is God. That is it. Yes, we are talking about one God. We're not talking about three different Gods. But do you believe Christ is His Father? Are the Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit all the same Person? I believe the Bible shows that when Christ on earth prayed to the Father, He was not praying to Himself but to the Father in heaven. No one knows the "makeup" of God. Is it three persons in one? Is it one person with three distinct personalities? Is it....... To the human entity God is a Paradox. Everything about God is filled with constant and continuous Paradox. That is why God is the MYSTERY. You cannot figure God out. God is not some jigsaw puzzle you put together then see the picture. God is beyond knowing. We need to respect that. We think we can figure out God but that is impossible. We always at some point come to a paradox. Just like the paradox you cited above when quoting the Bible of Jesus Christ in prayer to the Father. Since Christ was fully Divine was it his "divinity" talking to the Father's "divinity"? You cannot separate Jesus from His Divinity nor from His humanity. How do you know which was which when Christ was doing something? You don't know, was it Divinity or was it humanity. You see already we are talking nonsense. That is what happens when you try and figure out God. You talk NONSENSE and get wound up in a ton of paradoxes. The Bible is SILENT ON THE MAKE UP OF GOD. Deuteronomy says, "God is one". Divinity is Divinity. How it is made up and how it works in regard to the "labels" no one but no one knows. What does Jesus Christ mean when He says, "the Father and I are One". That could mean many different things. The Bible is SILENT ON WHAT "ONE" MEANS. This is why we need to tread very carefully. When Moses asked God who He was, God said, "I AM". That is it. There is no "I am the Father", "I am the Son", or "I am the Holy Spirit". Just, "I AM". That means to us stop trying to figure everything out because "GOD IS". That is it. The Bible does not give us any clue how God is. "GOD IS". Humanity wants to make "sense" according to how humans view things so they try and "make up stuff" that is not in the Bible or they twist what the Bible says into "their little box" and then say this is what "God is" when in fact humans don't actually know what "GOD IS". Don't hand me the stuff that God is Love. Yes, God is Love but then you have to give me the definition of Love and God (LOVE) is not definable by the human brain in terms of God. We define love in human terms because that is all we humans can do. However, our limitations by definition cannot define God or define Love because we are so sinful and polluted that our brains can only pollute these "words" which is far from the pure meaning of their actual reality.
miz3 Posted October 11, 2011 Posted October 11, 2011 Originally Posted By: John3:17 Of all the created beings, Lucifer stood closest to God. His open rebellion took place in the full light of God's character of love. That's why God could do no more for him. There was nothing more that God could reveal to Lucifer that would persuade him to repent and change. Originally Posted By: miz3 So satan wasn't confused. However, you said satan was confused. Which is it? Typical confusion from the EGW writings. Lucifer was confused not over God's character of love but over the identity of Michael the Archangel. He did not know that Michael was the self-existent God. He thought Michael had been appointed by God to be in His position. He didn't realize that Michael, or Christ, was the eternal, omnipotent, self-existent Son, who had always been in close fellowship with the Father. He was jealous because he thought Christ was put in the place where Lucifer belonged. Lucifer thought this despite His having been told over and over again that his ideas about Christ were false. His sins of jealousy, envy, and hatred for God's Son obscured his view and kept him from seeing the truth. But that is always the result of cherishing sin. If Lucifer had repented and let go of his envy and jealousy, he would have seen the truth that God and the unfallen angels had been trying to show him. Instead, Lucifer persisted in his sins and even began to aspire to be equal with God Himself. He hated Christ and wanted to conquer him. Imagine the insanity of a creature fighting to defeat God!! The Bible does not say that Michael the Archangel is Jesus Christ.
Moderators John317 Posted October 11, 2011 Moderators Posted October 11, 2011 Not Biblical. A lot of Ellen White in this. Ezekiel chapter 28 and Isaiah chapter 14 say that satan wanted to be above "God". The Bible says NOTHING ABOUT SATAN WANTING TO BE IN THE SAME POSITION AS CHRIST. Mixing your Bible facts with Ellen White views is not a correct appraisal of the situation. Ellen White was a true prophet of God, and as such, I accept what she says unless it PLAINLY CONTRADICTS the Bible. It isn't necessary that everything she says be in the Bible. God does give new information to the prophets. For instance, there would be no reason to inspire Joshua to say the same thing that is already in the books of Moses. And likewise, Jeremiah doesn't merely repeat what is already in Isaiah. There's nothing contradictory about Lucifer wanting to be in the place of Christ. As a matter of fact, since Satan is the antichrist, it seems obvious that at some point he began to aspire to take the place of Christ. Satan still does want to take the place of Christ and is continuing to work diligently, almost frantically, toward that end right this very minute. I don't expect you to accept Ellen White as a prophet of God but I do accept her and so does the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Therefore it's useless to debate or argue the issue here. It isn't the right discussion thread for doing that. It should be done on the discussions that deal directly with Ellen White's work and prophetic ministry. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 11, 2011 Moderators Posted October 11, 2011 ...The Bible does not say that Michael the Archangel is Jesus Christ. Seventh-day Adventists are persuaded otherwise. Check the following link out, which contains most of the Bible evidence that Michael the Archangel and Christ are one and the same Being. If you want to discuss the information or the subject further, we will need to do it on a separate discussion. I believe there's one already started. If you disagree with it, I would be interested to know what reasons you have for being opposed to the writer's evidence, reasoning, or conclusions. http://www.bibleprophecytruth.com/prophe...l-The-Archangel John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 11, 2011 Moderators Posted October 11, 2011 ...Christ says that the power or authority (same word in greek) to lay down his life (immortal unborrowed life - see EGW quote previously given)and take it up again came from His Father (and not from Himself). Therefore, he did NOT use his own divinity to break death's boundaries. How can Christ's life be original, unborrowed, and underived and yet be borrowed and derived from the Father? Did Christ's life originate with the Father? If so, then it's not true that Christ's life was original. Yet Ellen White clearly says Christ's life was original and NOT derived from the Father. Ellen White also says that Christ is "self-existent." That being so, His existence by definition does not depend on, and was not derived from, the Father. In John 2: 19, 21, Jesus Christ said, "I will raise up [my body]." All three divine Persons of the Godhead raised Jesus Christ from the grave. No surprise here. They always work in harmony with each other, just as they did in the creation of the world and in the salvation of mankind. Ellen White quotes the angel, "Thy Father calls Thee." Then Ellen White says, "The Savior came forth from the grave by the life that was in Himself." DA 785. She further states that it was a fulfillment of what Christ said in John 2: 19, 21. "In His divinity, Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death" (Ibid). John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Kevin H Posted October 11, 2011 Moderators Posted October 11, 2011 Lucifer and the unfallen angels and unfallen words had a nieve innocence, not the inocence of someone matured. Lucifer was asking the questions that could lead to a mature faith and a mature innocence. Sadly instead of looking for answers to his questions, he began congratulating himself for having the intelegence to come up with such clever questions.
Moderators John317 Posted October 11, 2011 Moderators Posted October 11, 2011 Well put, Kevin. I agree. He came to the point where he really didn't want to know the truth. All he apparently was interested in was gaining more power and conquering Christ. It seems clear to me that he didn't realize himself where his thinking was leading him. I'm sure he didn't know that it would result in His being cast out of heaven and finally being destroyed. His jealousy, envy and hatred blinded him to the reality of his situation. Maybe that's why the Bible refers to sin and false teachings as intoxicating wine. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Kevin H Posted October 11, 2011 Moderators Posted October 11, 2011 The Bible does not say that Michael the Archangel is Jesus Christ. When John bowed before an angel the angel said "don't do that I am a fellow servant..." however we find Joshua meeting someone who was the captain of the Lord's host. When Joshua met the Captain of the Lord's host he bowed down, but was told that bowing down to the Captain of the Lord's host was not enough, and that he had to remove his shoes for he was standing on Holy Ground. This is what Moses had to do as he was in the pressence of Yahweh Linguists tell us that this phrase from Joshua shows up again in the Bible in the phrase we see in Daniel talking about Michael. Thus Michael was the Captain of the Lord's hosts who was not an angel that God's servants should not bow down towards, but the one who bowing before wasnot enough but who you also have to remove your shoes in his pressence. Yahweh himself. Also Daniel talks about Messiah the prince being cut off, an unfinished story. Linguists tell us that one on the implications of the term "cut off" is being put to death. So we have the story of Messiah the Prince being put to death. In Daniel 12 we have Michael the Prince standing up. Linguists also tell us that one implication of the phrase "standing up" means raising from the dead. So do we have 2 stories, one where Messiah the prince dies and that's the end, and a story of Michael raising from the dead, well, how did he die, what was he doing dead? Or is it all the same story with Messiah the price dieing and Michael the prince raising up. Also, another fasinating study is "The God of Old: Inside the Lorst World of the Bible" by Rabbi James L. Kugel in which he points out that the God of Old was not invisable oe abstract but He appeared to people, usually unexpectantly and often mistaken as a person or angel but turned out to be God himself! (there are also fasinating studies in the therm "The Angel of the Lord") But even without these studies we still have the linguistic connection between the capain of the Lord's host and the discription given to Michael in Daniel, how Michael is the Captain of the Lord's Host who you need to do more than bow before but you must also remove your shoes. And the studies on how Daniel had Messiah the prince dieing and Michael the prince standing up from the dead.
Moderators Kevin H Posted October 11, 2011 Moderators Posted October 11, 2011 Well put, Kevin. I agree. He came to the point where he really didn't want to know the truth. All he apparently was interested in was gaining more power and conquering Christ. It seems clear to me that he didn't realize himself where his thinking was leading him. I'm sure he didn't know that it would result in His being cast out of heaven and finally being destroyed. His jealousy, envy and hatred blinded him to the reality of his situation. Maybe that's why the Bible refers to sin and false teachings as intoxicating wine. Yes Indeed John. God wanted to use the second best teacher to deal with these questions. Lucifer was the highest of the creatures and thus the first to think about these, and could have carefully and prayerfully reasoned it out. Insted we got the best teacher, expirenece. Althought it is the best teacher in this case it is the most painful. God understands evil thourally and completely. Lucifer just started playing around with that viper evil and is too busy playing with it to take a look at what he is playing with.
Moderators John317 Posted October 11, 2011 Moderators Posted October 11, 2011 Terrific post, Kevin. Lots of important information. Thanks. :-) John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Administrators Gail Posted October 11, 2011 Administrators Posted October 11, 2011 Cool! I always enjoy your fascinating insight, Kevin! Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
Moderators Kevin H Posted October 11, 2011 Moderators Posted October 11, 2011 Thank you Gail, but I can't take credit for it, I was fortunet enough to sit in some good classes at AUC, Andrews, The Jerusalem Center for Biblical Studies, and Loma Linda, read some good books in these classes and after them, as well as some good sermons in church and campmeeting. My original thoughts are few and usually given with a word of warning that these are my thoughts.
miz3 Posted October 11, 2011 Posted October 11, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Not Biblical. A lot of Ellen White in this. Ezekiel chapter 28 and Isaiah chapter 14 say that satan wanted to be above "God". The Bible says NOTHING ABOUT SATAN WANTING TO BE IN THE SAME POSITION AS CHRIST. Mixing your Bible facts with Ellen White views is not a correct appraisal of the situation. Ellen White was a true prophet of God, and as such, I accept what she says unless it PLAINLY CONTRADICTS the Bible. It isn't necessary that everything she says be in the Bible. God does give new information to the prophets. For instance, there would be no reason to inspire Joshua to say the same thing that is already in the books of Moses. And likewise, Jeremiah doesn't merely repeat what is already in Isaiah. There's nothing contradictory about Lucifer wanting to be in the place of Christ. As a matter of fact, since Satan is the antichrist, it seems obvious that at some point he began to aspire to take the place of Christ. Satan still does want to take the place of Christ and is continuing to work diligently, almost frantically, toward that end right this very minute. I don't expect you to accept Ellen White as a prophet of God but I do accept her and so does the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Therefore it's useless to debate or argue the issue here. It isn't the right discussion thread for doing that. It should be done on the discussions that deal directly with Ellen White's work and prophetic ministry. At least you admit that your assertion is NOT IN THE BIBLE and that the ONLY SOURCE for this assertion is Ellen White. I can accept why you believe that even though I do not agree with it because the Bible says that satan's quarrel is with God not with Jesus Christ.
miz3 Posted October 11, 2011 Posted October 11, 2011 Lucifer and the unfallen angels and unfallen words had a nieve innocence, not the inocence of someone matured. Lucifer was asking the questions that could lead to a mature faith and a mature innocence. Sadly instead of looking for answers to his questions, he began congratulating himself for having the intelegence to come up with such clever questions. This is again just embarrassingly pure fantasy. It is better for your SDA side if you would not express your wild unBiblical fantasies. Where in the Bible does it say that the unfallen worlds and unfallen angels were naive?
Moderators John317 Posted October 11, 2011 Moderators Posted October 11, 2011 At least you admit that your assertion is NOT IN THE BIBLE and that the ONLY SOURCE for this assertion is Ellen White. It agrees with what the Bible teaches when it refers to Satan as the THE antichrist, that is, the one who wants to be in the place of Christ. Originally Posted By: miz3 I can accept why you believe that even though I do not agree with it because the Bible says that satan's quarrel is with God not with Jesus Christ. Rev. 12:7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back. Notice in the above verse who Satan and his fallen angels fight against. Jesus Christ is God. Therefore when Satan attacks Jesus Christ, Satan is actually attacking God. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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