miz3 Posted October 29, 2011 Posted October 29, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Like I told Robert, the only difference between us is WHEN THE RESURRECTION TAKES PLACE. The two options are: 1. God raises the Righteous like He did Moses shortly after death and they are in Heaven with Him. 2. God raises all the Righteous simultaneously at some general resurrection at the Second Coming. The Bible says that "The FIRST resurrection" takes place at the Rev 19 second coming of Christ. Read Rev 20:1-5. That is the "easy part". It says it again in 1Thess 4 - that this happens at the appearing of Christ - future to the time of Paul. It says it again in John 5 - In says it again in 1Cor 15 - "At His Coming"... All future to the NT times. in Christ, Bob 1. Brother Bob, Revelation chapter nineteen takes place after the Second Coming when the "Final Judgment" takes place and the wicked are thrown into the fire. What is described happens AFTER THE SECOND COMING. 2. "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." Revelation 20:4-6. a. Notice who is on the thrones who has authority to judge. They were those who had been killed by beast and his image. Now according to SDA Theology these would be those martyred by the RCC/Pope just before Jesus Comes. It is not talking about any of the other Righteous either living or who died at any other time. Thus, it is not talking about the "stoned Stephen", King David, or any other of the Righteous who died long before because they are NOT MARTYRS OF THE RCC/POPE. It is these special martyrs that "reign with Christ of a thousand years". Read this text again because you are all twisted up even when we use SDA Theology view. b. In addition the text says that these saints (regardless who these saints may be, even if you include David, Stephen, etc.) are "brought to life". The text does NOT PINPOINT WHEN THESE SAINTS CAME TO LIFE. Thus, on both counts you are wrong about your interpretation. No lock for you here. Or is it no "soup for you" here. You are also right that it was easy to refute you. 3. "Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words." 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. This text has already been analyzed but we can do it again. Notice verse fourteen where it states that Jesus will back with Him in the clouds all the saints that have previously died. These saints came back with Jesus from Heaven where they have been. You can't be clearer than that. Verse fifteen then rightly states that those Righteous who are still alive on the earth will not PRECEDE (because the Righteous dead are coming from heaven already) those who have died. You see as Paul states clearly that the dead have already risen first and are coming back with Jesus to unite with the Righteous living. That is why the two groups meet in the air and not on the ground. If there was a "general resurrection" as you assert then the two would already be together on the ground but the text emphatically states that the meeting takes place in the air. This text alone shatters all your views in one fell swoop. 4. "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. 28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me." John 5:24-30. Notice verse twenty-five Jesus Christ says the "time has come" meaning right now for the dead to the voice of the Son of God. Verse twenty-eight states that this will continue in the future that each person who dies will be raised and will face the Judgment. It does not say that all this will happen at the Second Coming alone. In fact as verse twenty-five has already shown that even at the time Jesus Christ spoke those Words the dead were raised to life. This text has nothing to do with the Second Coming but it has only to do with what happens to the dead.
ClubV12 Posted October 29, 2011 Posted October 29, 2011 Say Bob, aren't you gonna throw in the "special resurrection" just before Christs return? That way those "that pierced him" die three times! That should get things going... Daniel 12:2 "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." This takes place AT the time of the second coming, the "time of the end", due to Daniels chronological order which starts in chapter 10, continues to 11 uninterupted and finally ends in 12 with His return. Which means, there are SOME WICKED DEAD who are raised at this time (those that pierced and reviled Him), while the rest of the wicked have to wait for another 1,000 years for the final resurrection! ,,,we'll leave out that part about all the Saints who died under the 3rd angels message also being raised up before the rest of the Saints are raised.
miz3 Posted October 29, 2011 Posted October 29, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Like I told Robert, the only difference between us is WHEN THE RESURRECTION TAKES PLACE. The two options are: 1. God raises the Righteous like He did Moses shortly after death and they are in Heaven with Him. 2. God raises all the Righteous simultaneously at some general resurrection at the Second Coming. The Bible says that "The FIRST resurrection" takes place at the Rev 19 second coming of Christ. Read Rev 20:1-5. That is the "easy part". It says it again in 1Thess 4 - that this happens at the appearing of Christ - future to the time of Paul. It says it again in John 5 - In says it again in 1Cor 15 - "At His Coming"... All future to the NT times. in Christ, Bob "But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power." 1Corinthians 15:20-24. The underlined part of this text is about as close as you come to some resurrection at the Second Coming. What then do we do. At best for you is that we have conflicting texts about when the resurrection of the Righteous takes place. In which case the burden is on you to overcome the conflict because most of the rest of the Bible seems to indicate that the Righteous dead may already have been resurrected in the same manner that Moses was raised from the dead. For me if there is a resurrection at the Second Coming it is not some massive general resurrection of "all the righteous dead" but maybe a small fraction of the righteous who died just before the Second Coming. In addition the phrase "when He comes" does not have to mean the Second Coming. Like with Moses Jesus Christ came to get Moses and raise Moses to life to be in Heaven. This phrase could very easily be referring to such a similar method. Thus, the conflict with the rest of the Bible is erased for me but not for you. Verses fifteen and sixteen of 1Corinthians chapter fifteen tell us that the dead are already "raised". It uses the past tense. This is in addition to all the texts I cited and explained in my last post and the posts that I already posted regarding this thread. The weight of evidence seems to be against you, Bob. It is up to you whether you accept it or reject it.
Robert Posted October 29, 2011 Posted October 29, 2011 ...22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive (future tense). 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him (those who have accepted Christ by faith). 24 Then the end will come , when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power." Notice, "when He comes...the end will come"! If the dead in Christ have been raised then the world would have come to an end, but it hasn't. Hence the dead have not been raised.
miz3 Posted October 29, 2011 Posted October 29, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 ...22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive (future tense). 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him (those who have accepted Christ by faith). 24 Then the end will come , when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power." Notice, "when He comes...the end will come"! If the dead in Christ have been raised then the world would have come to an end, but it hasn't. Hence the dead have not been raised. Your usual bad logic Robert.
Robert Posted October 29, 2011 Posted October 29, 2011 Originally Posted By: robert Notice, "when He comes...the end will come"! If the dead in Christ have been raised then the world would have come to an end, but it hasn't. Hence the dead have not been raised. Your usual bad logic Robert. You are impossible. I don't think you would understand truth if it was right in your face. I'm through with your nonsense. Argue with the wall!
miz3 Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 Originally Posted By: robert Notice, "when He comes...the end will come"! If the dead in Christ have been raised then the world would have come to an end, but it hasn't. Hence the dead have not been raised. Your usual bad logic Robert.
Moderators John317 Posted October 31, 2011 Moderators Posted October 31, 2011 Revelation chapter nineteen takes place after the Second Coming when the "Final Judgment" takes place and the wicked are thrown into the fire. What is described happens AFTER THE SECOND COMING. 2. "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." Revelation 20:4-6. Revelation 19 describes the Second Coming in verses 11-21. Originally Posted By: miz3 a. Notice who is on the thrones who has authority to judge. They were those who had been killed by beast and his image. Now according to SDA Theology these would be those martyred by the RCC/Pope just before Jesus Comes. It is not talking about any of the other Righteous either living or who died at any other time. Thus, it is not talking about the "stoned Stephen", King David, or any other of the Righteous who died long before because they are NOT MARTYRS OF THE RCC/POPE. It is these special martyrs that "reign with Christ of a thousand years". Read this text again because you are all twisted up even when we use SDA Theology view. Let's look closely again at Rev. 20: 4-6: Quote: I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. 1) John the Revelator saw people on thrones ready to judge. 2) He then also saw those who had been beheaded for preaching Jesus. 3) The people he saw hadn't worshipped the beast and hadn't received his mark. Notice that John is describing the people he paid most attention to. He is not saying that those are the only people in heaven. The first line describes different people from the ones he describes in the second line. John is saying that none of the people in heaven had worshipped the beast. He is not saying that the only ones he saw were those who had been alive at the time of the enforcement of the mark of the beast. Quote: They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years."Revelation 20:4-6. It is obvious that the people John is describing came alive at the beginning of the one thousand years. That is when the first resurrection occurs. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Revelation chapter nineteen takes place after the Second Coming when the "Final Judgment" takes place and the wicked are thrown into the fire. What is described happens AFTER THE SECOND COMING. 2. "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." Revelation 20:4-6. Revelation 19 describes the Second Coming in verses 11-21. Originally Posted By: miz3 a. Notice who is on the thrones who has authority to judge. They were those who had been killed by beast and his image. Now according to SDA Theology these would be those martyred by the RCC/Pope just before Jesus Comes. It is not talking about any of the other Righteous either living or who died at any other time. Thus, it is not talking about the "stoned Stephen", King David, or any other of the Righteous who died long before because they are NOT MARTYRS OF THE RCC/POPE. It is these special martyrs that "reign with Christ of a thousand years". Read this text again because you are all twisted up even when we use SDA Theology view. Let's look closely again at Rev. 20: 4-6: Quote: I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. 1) John the Revelator saw people on thrones ready to judge. 2) He then also saw those who had been beheaded for preaching Jesus. 3) The people he saw hadn't worshipped the beast and hadn't received his mark. Notice that John is describing the people he paid most attention to. He is not saying that those are the only people in heaven. The first line describes different people from the ones he describes in the second line. John is saying that none of the people in heaven had worshipped the beast. He is not saying that the only ones he saw were those who had been alive at the time of the enforcement of the mark of the beast. Quote: They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years."Revelation 20:4-6. It is obvious that the people John is describing came alive at the beginning of the one thousand years. That is when the first resurrection occurs. Wow, talk about tortured logic. Just because John didn't see any others there doesn't mean they weren't there, I believe is the way your argument goes. Such logic is absurd. We could claim such things for anything written in the Bible. Such tortured thinking does not make it true. Anyone could make such a claim about anything. For example I could claim that there were other people in the Garden of Eden and on the earth when Adam and Eve were first made, it was just that Moses who wrote the account didn't see them. Moses focused only on Adam and Eve but there were in fact other people present. Moses never said that those were the only people on the earth. He was just focused on Adam and Eve. We could use the same logic anywhere for anything in the Bible. Such as the Bible says that Moses and Elijah came to Christ on the Transfiguration, however it does not say that Enoch was not there so Enoch was there but the Bible writers were focused on Moses and Elijah. We could go on ad infinitum with Biblical examples. Thus, your logic is clearly flawed and doesn't show that there were actually others in heaven at this time as you claim "just because John does not mention them and/or John was focused on some group. Surely you see how absurd your logic is John317? King David could not have worshiped the RCC/Pope (the beast) or received his mark because according to SDA Theology the "beast" did not exist back then. The "beast" and the "mark stuff" only exists just before Jesus' Second Coming according to SDA Theology. Thus, King David could not be part of this group in Revelation 20:4-6. The fact that King David "never worshiped the beast" was not goodness on his part because the beast did not exist in David's day. Your tortured logic gives King David credit for something that never happened in David's day. How absurd. Come on John317 SDA Theology can do better than that.
Robert Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 Come on John317 SDA Theology can do better than that. John, he isn't interested in truth....At least that's my perception.
miz3 Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Come on John317 SDA Theology can do better than that. John, he isn't interested in truth....At least that's my perception. You can read my motives Robert?
Gustave Posted November 12, 2011 Posted November 12, 2011 Gustave, do you see any similarities between the following verses? Read carefully: No for the text in Genesis and yes for the text in Rev. For a Jew at the time of of Jesus to not believe in a conscious afterlife between death and Resurrection... ...They would have needed to be Sadducean. ...And we know what Jesus thought of their teachings. Hebrews 12 describes a festave gathering of the "whole people" in heaven at the temple... ...Everyone at that assembly is conscious and if Abraham is alive to God. ...Then Abraham is alive to God. That is unless you believe that God magic'd up a 'fake Abraham'... ...So God could have fellowship with it so as to prevent boredom. Luke 20,37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him G2198 / Strong's 1) to live, breathe, be among the living (not lifeless, not dead) 2) to enjoy real life a) to have true life and worthy of the name active, blessed, endless in the kingdom of God As in the following. Jude 1,14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh WITH ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. I would say that it speaking of the Second Coming of Christ... ...And the text says WHEN Christ comes He will be bringing with Him His Saints. ...Who Jesus said are ALIVE to God. ...Jesus "coming" with the Saints is prior to the execution of judgment. 1 Cor 6, 1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life That's explicit.
Robert Posted November 13, 2011 Posted November 13, 2011 Again, what is holy in you that it escapes death? Nothing but perfection can enter heaven. We are changed at the 2nd coming - until then we are indwelt with our bent to self. The only change that occurs now is in the heart or mind. Paul calls this the renewing of your mind. The mind is transformed so that it is now at odds with our natural bent to self.
Guest Posted November 13, 2011 Posted November 13, 2011 If you keep going Robert, you're gonna come full circle and end up back at the truth.
miz3 Posted November 13, 2011 Posted November 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Come on John317 SDA Theology can do better than that. John, he isn't interested in truth....At least that's my perception. This demonstrates Robert that you have no case because you cannot answer the clear truth of my posts. You can only spew hate about my motives which you think you can read.
Recommended Posts