Robert Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. What is the purpose of trumpet? Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Robert Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 I will not withdraw the "tortured logic" and the "preconceived ideas" part. This is clearly TRUE. I wouldn't say that my logic is tortured. I'm trying to be honest in what I believe. And "preconceived ideas"? I like to think that I think outside the box.
Lysimachus Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 Oh how wonderful it is to be an Adventist. You can refute ANYBODY! (let's just not lop off heads) ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Robert Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 It would be cruel to both those who are "saved" and to God Himself to make everyone wait till some eons of time later to unite and be forever with the Lord. What you are advocating is cruel and heartless. The dead know nothing. They are not aware of their situation....Patience.
Robert Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 You need to read the rest of John chapter eleven. Did you read where Christ says that those who believe in Him "never die". Never die the 2nd death! Christ came to save believers from the 2nd death - the curse of the law. Christ didn't come to save us from our first death. Now, if you wish to refute this please tell me what is good in you that it never dies?
Robert Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" Clearly, according to verse 25, those who believe in Christ - even though they die - shall live. This proves that believers do die! Verse 26 must be speaking of those who are alive when Christ returns. They will be changed, but they won't experience death. They will be translated.
miz3 Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 Originally Posted By: Miz3 his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. What is the purpose of trumpet? Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. The purpose of the Trumpet is the same as the usage in other parts of the Bible to get attention. Daniel 12:2 does not say that such a resurrection will happen all at once many distant years in the future. It just says that the people will be raised. Notice the wording, it says "many of them that sleep" thus it is not talking about all that sleep. Again, this text is not saying there will be some big general resurrection some time in the by and by. It just states that humans will be resurrected. You are assuming something not in evidence. You are assuming a general resurrection because that is your preconceived idea.
miz3 Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 You need to read the rest of John chapter eleven. Did you read where Christ says that those who believe in Him "never die". Never die the 2nd death! Christ came to save believers from the 2nd death - the curse of the law. Christ didn't come to save us from our first death. Now, if you wish to refute this please tell me what is good in you that it never dies? Again and again you assume things that are not in the text. Jesus Christ never ever said that He meant the "second death" if He had Christ would have said the "second death". You keep assuming things from your preconceived ideas. What is "good" in me is the Life of Jesus Christ which God recognizes because of what Christ did on the Cross. It is Christ's goodness not mine that counts. This is why Jesus Christ said that the "Kingdom of God is in you". That Kingdom and that Life of Jesus Christ is absolutely perfect and never dies.
miz3 Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" Clearly, according to verse 25, those who believe in Christ - even though they die - shall live. This proves that believers do die! Verse 26 must be speaking of those who are alive when Christ returns. They will be changed, but they won't experience death. They will be translated. Jesus Christ was correct, when He said "though he may die, he shall live" because that is exactly what happened to Moses. He died and yet he lived again in Heaven. Moses was a model of how it works. So was the "thief on the cross". Thus when the believers "die" it is a sleep because like Moses they are raised again to live with Christ. I like your statement about verse 26 which would also include Enoch and Elijah.
Lysimachus Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 Page 63 of Frooms own book Lysimachus......Look at the chart. http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/CFOOF/CFOOF1965-V02__C/index.djvu ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Ron Lambert Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 Robert, pointing out that Ecclesiastes 12:7 is present in a context employing metaphors does not mean that the text means nothing and can be ignored. Do you really think you can dismiss this text and claim that it does not tell us that at death a spiritual component of some sort returns to God? What about when Jesus said on the Cross, "Father, into Thy hands I commit My spirit." (Luke 23:46; NASB) This cannot be dismissed as meaningless metaphor. I must repeat my basic question: If you believe that the spirit of life is no more than an energizing spark, like electricity in a lightbulb (to use the common illustration), then how do you know for sure that a person who is resurrected is really the same person who died, and not just a physical copy with duplicate memories, who only thinks he is the original person? How can we avoid making it sound like God is perpetrating some kind of a fraud? The only satisfactory answer to this is to realize that the spirit of life is more than a mere energizing spark, it also includes an essential personal identity. This does not mean there is consciousness in death. We need a brain to think with, and be able to be aware of anything, including the passage of time. Death is a sleep--but there is still a person who is asleep! When God decides to resurrect someone, He has to return the original spirit of life with the original identity to this earth, so that whatever new body it is combined with, it is still truly the original person. I challenge anyone to come up with any other explanation that is adequate. You have not addressed the argument I raised concerning what Jesus said about God not being the God of the dead, but of the living: Jesus Himself said: "But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Matthew 22:31, 32) So we must ask ourselves, how is it that those we count as being dead, are still alive to God? Of even greater importance is the basic theological issue I raise concerning the Incarnation of Christ, since our very salvation depends upon this: If the spirit of life is merely an energizing spark, then how did the Holy Spirit put the divine Son of God into the physical body forming in Mary's womb? Clearly the Holy Spirit did not put the Son of God's body into her womb--the egg that began to multiply and grow was entirely human, with nothing but human DNA. So how was divinity combined with humanity? This is the single most important element in soteriology (how Christ can be our Savior), because it is the Incarnation of Christ that qualified Him to represent humanity as the New Adam, take responsibility for the sins of our entire race, and execute the penalty against all the sins of humanity in Himself, and also qualifies Him to provide a new life, a new history, a new heritage in Himself that is sinless, which alone entitles us to renewed fellowship with God. Here again, we are forced to concede that there is an essential personal identity that is part of the spirit of life that is combined with the body to produce a human soul. Otherwise it is impossible to believe that Christ could be both entirely human and entirely divine, and was truly the same Person who was the Son of God before the Incarnation, and again was truly the same Person after His Resurrection. This is the only way that Divinity could truly be combined with humanity. I maintain that the standard analogy many SDA evangelists use of likening the spirit to electricity in a lightbulb, is inadequate. It obviously does not go far enough. It is superficial and simplistic. I wonder how many people who have come to our evangelistic meetings have heard this analogy and seen the inadequacy of it, especially as it relates the the Incarnation of Christ and to our promised Resurrection, and thus have been lead to reject our whole teaching on the nature of man and the nature of Christ needlessly, because we failed to think it through more carefully, and see that the lightbulb analogy implies something that misrepresents our doctrines.
Gustave Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 What are ECF's? I don't like to use initials unless everyone is clear about their meaning.
Gustave Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 It would be cruel to both those who are "saved" and to God Himself to make everyone wait till some eons of time later to unite and be forever with the Lord. What you are advocating is cruel and heartless. The dead know nothing. They are not aware of their situation....Patience. According to the SAME Book of Ecclesiastes.... ...Once a person is DEAD there is NO MORE REWARD, Period!
miz3 Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 Robert, pointing out that Ecclesiastes 12:7 is present in a context employing metaphors does not mean that the text means nothing and can be ignored. Do you really think you can dismiss this text and claim that it does not tell us that at death a spiritual component of some sort returns to God? What about when Jesus said on the Cross, "Father, into Thy hands I commit My spirit." (Luke 23:46; NASB) This cannot be dismissed as meaningless metaphor. I must repeat my basic question: If you believe that the spirit of life is no more than an energizing spark, like electricity in a lightbulb (to use the common illustration), then how do you know for sure that a person who is resurrected is really the same person who died, and not just a physical copy with duplicate memories, who only thinks he is the original person? How can we avoid making it sound like God is perpetrating some kind of a fraud? The only satisfactory answer to this is to realize that the spirit of life is more than a mere energizing spark, it also includes an essential personal identity. This does not mean there is consciousness in death. We need a brain to think with, and be able to be aware of anything, including the passage of time. Death is a sleep--but there is still a person who is asleep! When God decides to resurrect someone, He has to return the original spirit of life with the original identity to this earth, so that whatever new body it is combined with, it is still truly the original person. I challenge anyone to come up with any other explanation that is adequate. You have not addressed the argument I raised concerning what Jesus said about God not being the God of the dead, but of the living: Jesus Himself said: "But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Matthew 22:31, 32) So we must ask ourselves, how is it that those we count as being dead, are still alive to God? Of even greater importance is the basic theological issue I raise concerning the Incarnation of Christ, since our very salvation depends upon this: If the spirit of life is merely an energizing spark, then how did the Holy Spirit put the divine Son of God into the physical body forming in Mary's womb? Clearly the Holy Spirit did not put the Son of God's body into her womb--the egg that began to multiply and grow was entirely human, with nothing but human DNA. So how was divinity combined with humanity? This is the single most important element in soteriology (how Christ can be our Savior), because it is the Incarnation of Christ that qualified Him to represent humanity as the New Adam, take responsibility for the sins of our entire race, and execute the penalty against all the sins of humanity in Himself, and also qualifies Him to provide a new life, a new history, a new heritage in Himself that is sinless, which alone entitles us to renewed fellowship with God. Here again, we are forced to concede that there is an essential personal identity that is part of the spirit of life that is combined with the body to produce a human soul. Otherwise it is impossible to believe that Christ could be both entirely human and entirely divine, and was truly the same Person who was the Son of God before the Incarnation, and again was truly the same Person after His Resurrection. This is the only way that Divinity could truly be combined with humanity. I maintain that the standard analogy many SDA evangelists use of likening the spirit to electricity in a lightbulb, is inadequate. It obviously does not go far enough. It is superficial and simplistic. I wonder how many people who have come to our evangelistic campaigns have heard this analogy and seen the inadequacy of it, especially as it relates the the Incarnation of Christ and to our promised Resurrection, and thus have been repelled by it. I find your views both interesting and thoughtful. I agree that whatever "returns" to God is not some nonentity nothingness (such as the electricity you cite). The Spirit that "returns" to God has to be something substantial and real even though it may not consist of "matter" as we humans know matter. Of course having said this you are not in any way endorsing some of the views that I have presented. Your presentation could still fit a "general resurrection" sometime in the future for example.
Lysimachus Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 I would agree that the breath or spirit that goes back to God is not just a mere spark. Rather, it is the entire character of the person. All the thoughts of the person--the makeup of who the person is--it is all the data of the person traveling through cyberspace and right unto the heavenly Hard Drives. When God breathes the spirit back into a body, He transmits all that data wirelessly, and burns it right back into a new frame. Then the person picks up where he left off, but now there is a frame and electronic components to decode and intelligibly make use of the data. Data on a disk is useless if the disk is not operating on a functioning computer. ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Robert Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 What is "good" in me is the Life of Jesus Christ.... Yes, but you are not God. You are going to die....
Robert Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 "Father, into Thy hands I commit My spirit." (Luke 23:46; NASB) This cannot be dismissed as meaningless metaphor. Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Father, I give you my life." After Jesus said this, he died. (NCV) Again, what is good in you that lives on? You see immortality and righteousness are linked just as mortality and sin are connected. Death came with sin. If you aren't a sinner...if you do not have indwelling sin (your bent to self) in your humanity, then you will never die. But that's not the case.
Robert Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 According to the SAME Book of Ecclesiastes.......Once a person is DEAD there is NO MORE REWARD, Period! Until the resurrection. That's when you are made in image of God....Until then.....
Robert Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 The Spirit that "returns" to God has to be something substantial and real even though it may not consist of "matter" as we humans know matter. It's a metaphor....God gave you life and when you die it returns to Him. He gave you breath and when you die that breath goes back into the heavens. All metaphors. The Bible is full of them. In fact Jesus only spoke in parables. Again, what's holy in you that goes into heaven after you die? Answer: Nothing, zip, zero.... Your only hope is the resurrection!
Robert Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 The immortality of the soul (or person) is directly tied what Paul terms "another gospel". It's a gospel of self-righteousness and pride. It's a gospel of there's something good in me that never dies. It's saying my "spirit" is as holy as God and therefore it goes to heaven when my body dies. What does Ellen White say? He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. RH Sep 25, 1900
Robert Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 Christ's humanity came from our fallen life from Adam. Hence as the Son of Man He was under the curse of death. But His Deity, which He handed over to Father before the incarnation, never died. Why? It's holy....Divinity by definition can't die.
miz3 Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 What is "good" in me is the Life of Jesus Christ.... Yes, but you are not God. You are going to die.... Not claiming to be God. You asked what good is in you. I told you that Jesus Christ is the good in me and Jesus Christ never dies because He is perfect. In addition, God is using the Holy Spirit to clean up the sin (see Romans eight) and make "more than a conqueror". Thus, I fit into the category of Believers that Jesus Christ said would never die. Basically, Robert you and I are not debating whether there is a resurrection, we are just debating when such a resurrection will take place. I still find no evidence for a "general mass resurrection" as you assert and that is the very point of the matter. All the texts that you have cited so far have not shown that a "general mass resurrection" will take place. It is this "mass general resurrection" that is at the center of the doctrine of "soul-sleep" theory.
miz3 Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 The Spirit that "returns" to God has to be something substantial and real even though it may not consist of "matter" as we humans know matter. It's a metaphor....God gave you life and when you die it returns to Him. He gave you breath and when you die that breath goes back into the heavens. All metaphors. The Bible is full of them. In fact Jesus only spoke in parables. Again, what's holy in you that goes into heaven after you die? Answer: Nothing, zip, zero.... Your only hope is the resurrection! I find it interesting that when SDA get stuck in regard to the FACTS OF THE BIBLE they always turn it into a "metaphor". Thus, they don't have to deal with the real FACTS. If the whole Bible is filled with "metaphors" then maybe there is nothing real. You and I are not real we are just simply "metaphors" that seem to be real but really aren't real. Maybe the Resurrection is a "metaphor" and when the "breath" also a metaphor that goes back to God that is the "resurrection" the Bible is talking about. Robert you have to deal in real facts and not refer to everything because you are stuck as just a metaphor. Whenever I see SDA say it is a metaphor I know instantly they are stuck and have no answer because the FACTS just get in their way.
miz3 Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 The immortality of the soul (or person) is directly tied what Paul terms "another gospel". It's a gospel of self-righteousness and pride. It's a gospel of there's something good in me that never dies. It's saying my "spirit" is as holy as God and therefore it goes to heaven when my body dies. What does Ellen White say? He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. RH Sep 25, 1900 Apparently that "breath" that goes back to God which is basically your "unique personhood" never dies because God at some point must put that same "unique personhood" back into a new body that is not corruptible. This entity does not sleep nor does it die. It is with God who gave it in the first place. That "unique personhood" does not die it is still alive and with God. It cannot die and be with God. Again, I tell you the basic debate between us is when does that "breath" or "unique personhood" become connected again to a "body".
Gustave Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gustave According to the SAME Book of Ecclesiastes.......Once a person is DEAD there is NO MORE REWARD, Period! Until the resurrection. That's when you are made in image of God....Until then..... In Eccl there was no future Resurrection.... ...Once you were dead it was game over, done for good.
Recommended Posts