Did Christ Die the Second Death

[John317]

Second humans have preeminence over the beast. Jesus Christ for instance did not come to die specifically for the beasts but He did come to die specifically for me and for you. I'd say that gives you and me preeminence over the beasts.

We have preeminence over the beast only in that we are created in the image of God and they are not. But the Bible is clear that the process of death is the same for both man and beast. We both die when we stop breathing and our heart stops beating.

Neither the animals or people have any conciousness or awareness after death. We go to the same place: the grave. We all turn to dust. The breath of life returns to God who gave it, but this is true of all people, including the wicked. And there's no indication that the breath of life has consciousness.

Originally Posted By: miz3

You and I do not know with any kind of certainty whatsoever whether there is or is not consciousness of the "unique personality" when it returns to God.

Yes, the Bible makes this clear. It says the dead do not know anything. That's as clear as anyone can be.

What do you believe we have in us that survives the death of the body and is conscious following the death of the person?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Second humans have preeminence over the beast. Jesus Christ for instance did not come to die specifically for the beasts but He did come to die specifically for me and for you. I'd say that gives you and me preeminence over the beasts.

We have preeminence over the beast only in that we are created in the image of God and they are not. But the Bible is clear that the process of death is the same for both man and beast. We both die when we stop breathing and our heart stops beating.

Neither the animals or people have any conciousness or awareness after death. We go to the same place: the grave. We all turn to dust. The breath of life returns to God who gave it, but this is true of all people, including the wicked. And there's no indication that the breath of life has consciousness.

Originally Posted By: miz3

You and I do not know with any kind of certainty whatsoever whether there is or is not consciousness of the "unique personality" when it returns to God.

Yes, the Bible makes this clear. It says the dead do not know anything. That's as clear as anyone can be.

What do you believe we have in us that survives the death of the body and is conscious following the death of the person?

1. There is no indication in the Bible that the "unique personality" when it returns to God is unconscious either. We do not know what happens to this "unique personality" that God breathed into each one of us when it returns to God who gave it.

2. You are making the same mistake Lysimachus made by putting a period after that phrase when the Bible puts a comma which allows the next phrases to make clear what the context of that phrase is actually saying.

Why do you want to put a period after the phrase when the Bible puts a comma?

[John317]

... We do not know what happens to this "unique personality" that God breathed into each one of us when it returns to God who gave it.

Where does the Bible say that God breathed "a unique personality" into us?

[Robert]

This text does not say that the "serpent's cunning" is directly or indirectly referring to the phrase, "you shall not die".

Bible in Basic English:

"But I have a fear, that in some way, as Eve was tricked by the deceit of the snake, your minds may be turned away from their simple and holy love for Christ."

How was she deceived?

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

Here's what God said:

Gen 2:6 ... "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Now back to Gen 3:2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' " 4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

What did the serpent say? You won't die...in fact you'll be as God!

What a con job!

[John317]

2. You are making the same mistake Lysimachus made by putting a period after that phrase when the Bible puts a comma which allows the next phrases to make clear what the context of that phrase is actually saying.

Why do you want to put a period after the phrase when the Bible puts a comma?

What do you mean I am putting a period somewhere when the Bible has a comma?

The original Hebrew text had no punctuation at all, just like the original Greek had no punctuation. All of those are put in by the translators.

I merely copied the KJV. Are you referring to the colon?

What translation do you prefer? They all are saying the same thing.

Here's the ESV:

Eccles. 9:5

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

This text does not say that the "serpent's cunning" is directly or indirectly referring to the phrase, "you shall not die".

Bible in Basic English:

"But I have a fear, that in some way, as Eve was tricked by the deceit of the snake, your minds may be turned away from their simple and holy love for Christ."

How was she deceived?

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

Here's what God said:

Gen 2:6 ... "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Now back to Gen 3:2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' " 4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

What did the serpent say? You won't die...in fact you'll be as God!

What a con job!

You forgot verse five. That is also a deception to tell Eve that she would be like God.

[John317]

[John317]

You forgot verse five. That is also a deception to tell Eve that she would be like God.

Satan said, "You'll be like God knowing good and evil." Didn't Adam and Eve become knowledgeable in good and evil?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

2. You are making the same mistake Lysimachus made by putting a period after that phrase when the Bible puts a comma which allows the next phrases to make clear what the context of that phrase is actually saying.

Why do you want to put a period after the phrase when the Bible puts a comma?

What do you mean I am putting a period somewhere when the Bible has a comma?

The original Hebrew text had no punctuation at all, just like the original Greek had no punctuation. All of those are put in by the translators.

I merely copied the KJV. Are you referring to the colon?

What translation do you prefer? They all are saying the same thing.

Here's the ESV:

Eccles. 9:5

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

"For the living know that they will die,

but the dead know nothing;

they have no further reward,

and even the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Their love, their hate

and their jealousy have long since vanished;

never again will they have a part

in anything that happens under the sun."

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6.

Notice there is a comma after the word "nothing" in your translation, and in my translation there is a semicolon. There is NOT A PERIOD. A period would be the end of a thought. However, a comma and a semicolon mean that the phrase cited has qualifiers that come after to clarify what is meant.

The qualifier is the next two phrases which tell us that this text is referring ONLY TO WHAT HAPPENS ON THIS EARTH.

In addition verse six further demonstrates the context is ONLY ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS ON THIS EARTH.

No where is this text stating anything about the state of the dead in heaven. It is all about the earth and the relationship the dead in regard to the EARTH ONLY.

You are trying to make it say something else that it does not say. You are trying apply this to Heaven and it says nothing about the state of the dead in regard to their "unique personality" or "breath" and its state in Heaven.

Your insertion of Heaven is an addition to the Word of God and you and I know that is a no, no.

[ClubV12]

As there was no punctuation in the original writings it's problematic to just put it where ever one thinks it should fit.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

In Eccl there was no future Resurrection....

...Once you were dead it was game over, done for good.

What Solomon says is that once you are dead, you don't know anything and you don't return to the earth or know what's going on here. He doesn't say that there's no resurrection or judgment. On, the contrary, Solomon wrote the following:

Eccles. 12:13-14

The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. [14] For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.

Yeah, Eccl said the dead would never take part of anything subsequent to death...

...And anything would absolutely include a Resurrection of the Body.

Eccl 3,19

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have ALL one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

Verse 21

Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

Does not know what goes up or what comes down...

...Claims that there is nothing better than a man rejoicing in his "OWN WORKS".

Eccl 4,2

Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive. Yea, better is he than both they, which hath not yet been, who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun.

Better a person to have NEVER been born than either one alive or dead?

...There is NO Resurrection here John317.

The following should be the end of your using Ecclesiastes...

...As an apologetic for soul sleeping.

Ecclesiastes 8, 8

There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is NO discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.

Look that up in Strong's John, it means there is NO RELEASE or sending away from Captivity...

...Captivity equating to death.

...According to the Scriptures.

Eccl 9,4

For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have THEY any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun

"THEY" = both those who died EVIL and those who died righteous...

...Neither have they ANY MORE a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun.

John, you mentioned Verse 12: 13 about Judgment...

...This in itself is a valid proof for the author fully believing in a state where the dead know at least something.

Eccl 6,3

If a man beget an hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he. For he cometh in with vanity, and departeth in darkness, and his name shall be covered with darkness. Moreover he hath not seen the sun, nor known any thing: this hath more rest than the other.

A still born baby will have MORE REST than a man who's lived a long life and been blessed with many things - even if the man was allowed to live for 2000 years.

This reflects the early Hebrew belief that all went down into the pit at death and entered into a helpless state of existence in a shadow world - exactly as the Jewish historical sources I've already quoted told you.

[Gustave]

I would add that according to Hebrews 12: 22-24....

...The "spirits" OF just men are at a general assembly in the Heavenly Jerusalem.

...With "THEM" are countless angles & the Trinity.

If there really is a Jerusalem in heaven and there really is a general assembly AND God and His angles are really conscious why would SDA's insist that the spirits OF just people are at a "general assembly" yet in a dullard unconscious state?

Hebrews 12,22

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

[Robert]

Again, what in you exists that is naturally righteous and escapes death? yes?

[John317]

"For the living know that they will die,

but the dead know nothing;

they have no further reward,

and even the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Their love, their hate

and their jealousy have long since vanished;

never again will they have a part

in anything that happens under the sun."

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6.

Notice there is a comma after the word "nothing" in your translation, and in my translation there is a semicolon. There is NOT A PERIOD. A period would be the end of a thought. However, a comma and a semicolon mean that the phrase cited has qualifiers that come after to clarify what is meant.

First of all, the punctuation is not inspired.

Second, it doesn't matter whether there's a semicolon, colon, or period, in that part of the sentence.

Both are equally valid translations and constructions. The translation I gave was that of the KJV.

A qualifier may follow a period just as easily as it can follow a comma or a semicolon.

A semicolon ususally takes the place of a coordinating conjunction, but it doesn't change the basic meaning of the sentence. It is simply a longer pause than a comma, but not as long a pause as a period.

It could also be translated as follows:

For the living know that they will die,

but the dead know nothing.

They have no further reward;

even the memory of them is forgotten.

Or:

For the living know that they will die. The dead, however, know nothing; they have no further reward; and even the memory of them is forgotten.

Check out some books on English grammar and punctuation, specifically the use of the semicolon.

[John317]

The qualifier is the next two phrases which tell us that this text is referring ONLY TO WHAT HAPPENS ON THIS EARTH.

But what biblical evidence do you have that the dead know any more in heaven than they do on earth?

The dead know nothing of what happens on earth, right?

Yet, if they know so much after their death, why wouldn't they know what's happening on earth?

Also, if they know nothing of what happens on earth, why do so many people pray to them and ask them about things going on here on the earth?

Catholics, for instance, believe that Mary has returned to the earth after her death and given people wise messages and that she knows more about what's happening on earth now than she ever did before she died.

How can this be, and is such a belief biblical?

[John317]

I would add that according to Hebrews 12: 22-24....

...The "spirits" OF just men are at a general assembly in the Heavenly Jerusalem.

...With "THEM" are countless angles & the Trinity.

Hebrews 12,22

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Are you sure the writer intends for us to believe that the spirits of just men are literally in heaven?

Are not the just men made perfect at the resurrection? Are men made perfect now, prior to the resurrection?

Romans 8:20-23

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope [21] that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. [22] For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. [23] And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

1 Thes. 4:16

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

[BobRyan]

Well we know that Enoch and Elijah and Moses are literally in heaven. And there is a good chance that all those resurrected in Matt 27 are literally in heaven.

[BobRyan]

1. There is no indication in the Bible that the "unique personality" when it returns to God is unconscious either. We do not know what happens to this "unique personality" that God breathed into each one of us when it returns to God who gave it.

2. You are making the same mistake Lysimachus made by putting a period after that phrase when the Bible puts a comma which allows the next phrases to make clear what the context of that phrase is actually saying.

Why do you want to put a period after the phrase when the Bible puts a comma?

1. No Bible author put a period or a comma anywhere - that all was done by the traditions of men - centuries after the fact.

2. 1Thess 4 Paul makes it very clear that the saints are asleep in death. "Those" WHO have fallen asleep.

3. John 11 Christ makes it very clear "our FRIEND Lazarus sleeps".

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

Eccles. 12:13-14

The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. [14] For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Yeah, Eccl said the dead would never take part of anything subsequent to death...

...And anything would absolutely include a Resurrection of the Body.

If the writer of Ecclesiastes means for you to believe this, why does it say that some day there will be a judgment, at which every secret deed will be considered?

The writer obviously means that the dead won't take part in anything as long as they are dead. That is, they won't take part in anything until they are alive. His whole point is that only living human beings can take part in ANYTHING, whether on earth or anywhere else. So humans won't take part in anything until they're resurrected, since the resurrection is the only time they will live again.

There's no evidence that the writer is saying there will never be a resurrection. The judgment actually assumes a resurrection will take place.

The entire Bible teaches the same thing because it has one God as its true author.

[John317]

[Gustave]

Again, what in you exists that is naturally righteous and escapes death? yes?

Nothing "in us" is naturally righteous....

...According to Christ the soul does not die like the body.

Matthew 10,28

And fear not them which kill the body, but are NOT able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

A person is killed by another...

...The spirit of that killed person is STILL ALIVE.

...Simply because Christ said it was!

Is your "body" conscious when it's alive Robert?

...Or is it in a state of perpetual unconsciousness?

Apply the same rubric to the soul with Jesus' own direct teaching.

[Gustave]

Are you sure the writer intends for us to believe that the spirits of just men are literally in heaven?

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: John317

Eccles. 12:13-14

The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. [14] For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Yeah, Eccl said the dead would never take part of anything subsequent to death...

...And anything would absolutely include a Resurrection of the Body.

If the writer of Ecclesiastes means for you to believe this, why does it say that some day there will be a judgment, at which every secret deed will be considered?

The writer obviously means that the dead won't take part in anything as long as they are dead. That is, they won't take part in anything until they are alive. His whole point is that only living human beings can take part in ANYTHING, whether on earth or anywhere else. So humans won't take part in anything until they're resurrected, since the resurrection is the only time they will live again.

There's no evidence that the writer is saying there will never be a resurrection. The judgment actually assumes a resurrection will take place.

The entire Bible teaches the same thing because it has one God as its true author.

Judgment had nothing at all to do with the Resurrection at that time...

...The Hebrews simply believed that a righteous man would 'rest' better than a wicked one would in death.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Nothing "in us" is naturally righteous....

...According to Christ the soul does not die like the body.

Matthew 10,28

And fear not them which kill the body, but are NOT able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

[/quote']

But in that verse, Jesus says that people's bodies will be in hell.

He also says that the soul will be destroyed in hell. He doesn't indicate that the soul and body will go on burning endlessly.

Notice also that Jesus doesn't say that the soul is conscious after the person dies.

If we put this together with what the entire New Testament (and Old) says, we can see that Jesus is talking about God being the only One who can destroy a person permenantly and for eternity.

Remember that Christ said:

I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. {Rev. 1:18}

NOTE: Jesus is the One who has the power to determine whether we live or die. No mere human has that power.

[John317]

...Judgment had nothing at all to do with the Resurrection at that time...

...The Hebrews simply believed that a righteous man would 'rest' better than a wicked one would in death.

We have to go by what the Bible teaches, not by what some Jews thought. They had all sorts of wrong ideas.

The fact is that a judgment after death clearly implies that people will live some time after death. It doesn't do any good to have a judgment of people who are dead and will remain dead and never see life again.

The book of Daniel as well as Ezekiel also show that God had revealed there would be a resurrection.

In fact, Jesus showed that God had revealed the idea of the resurrection clear back in the time of Abraham. It's true, though, that people didn't have a clear understanding of how it would happen or when it would take place.

The whole purpose of a resurrection is to raise the body, and the need of raising the body shows that people aren't alive without the body.

It wasn't true of the Greeks, which is why Paul's preaching of the resurrection of the body made no sense to them. But it did make sense to a Jew, whose ideas were based on the Old Testament, not on Greek philosophy.