Moderators John317 Posted October 21, 2011 Moderators Posted October 21, 2011 ...It is very easy to see that Ellen White was 100% against the Trinity. Ellen White on the Godhead: Quote: We Shall Have to Meet Erroneous Teaching.-- Again and again we shall be called to meet the influence of men who are studying sciences of satanic origin, through which Satan is working to make a nonentity of God and of Christ. The Father and the Son each have a personality. Christ declared, "I and My 614 Father are one." Yet it was the Son of God who came to the world in human form. Laying aside His royal robe and kingly crown, He clothed His divinity with humanity, that humanity through His infinite sacrifice might become partakers of the divine nature, and escape the corruption that is in the world through lust.--Testimonies, vol. 9, p. 68. (1909) {Ev 613.3} Positive Truth Versus Spiritualistic Representations. --I am instructed to say, The sentiments of those who are searching for advanced scientific ideas are not to be trusted. Such representations as the following are made: "The Father is as the light invisible: the Son is as the light embodied; the Spirit is the light shed abroad." "The Father is like the dew, invisible vapor; the Son is like the dew gathered in beauteous form; the Spirit is like the dew fallen to the seat of life." Another representation: "The Father is like the invisible vapor; the Son is like the leaden cloud; the Spirit is rain fallen and working in refreshing power." {Ev 614.1} All these spiritualistic representations are simply nothingness. They are imperfect, untrue. They weaken and diminish the Majesty which no earthly likeness can be compared to. God cannot be compared with the things His hands have made. These are mere earthly things, suffering under the curse of God because of the sins of man. The Father cannot be described by the things of earth. The Father is all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and is invisible to mortal sight. {Ev 614.2} The Son is all the fullness of the Godhead manifested. The Word of God declares Him to be "the express image of His person." "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have 615 everlasting life." Here is shown the personality of the Father. {Ev 614.3} The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) {Ev 615.1} The Pre-existent, Self-existent Son of God.--Christ is the pre-existent, self-existent Son of God.... In speaking of his pre-existence, Christ carries the mind back through dateless ages. He assures us that there never was a time when He was not in close fellowship with the eternal God. He to whose voice the Jews were then listening had been with God as one brought up with Him.--Signs of the Times, Aug. 29, 1900. {Ev 615.2} He was equal with God, infinite and omnipotent. . . . He is the eternal, self-existent Son.--Manuscript 101, 1897. {Ev 615.3} From Everlasting.--While God's Word speaks of the humanity of Christ when upon this earth, it also speaks decidedly regarding His pre-existence. The Word existed as a divine being, even as the eternal Son of God, in union and oneness with His Father. From everlasting He was the Mediator of the covenant, the one in whom all nations of the earth, both Jews and Gentiles, if they accepted Him, were to be blessed. "The Word was with God, and the Word was God." Before men or angels were created, the Word was with 616 God, and was God.--Review and Herald, April 5, 1906. {Ev 615.4} Christ shows them that, although they might reckon His life to be less than fifty years, yet His divine life could not be reckoned by human computation. The existence of Christ before His incarnation is not measured by figures.--Signs of the Times, May 3, 1899. {Ev 616.1} Life, Original, Unborrowed, Underived.--Jesus declared, "I am the resurrection, and the life." In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived. "He that hath the Son hath life." The divinity of Christ is the believer's assurance of eternal life.--The Desire of Ages, p. 530 (1898) {Ev 616.2} With the Father at Sinai.--When they [israel] came to Sinai, He took occasion to refresh their minds in regard to His requirements. Christ and the Father, standing side by side upon the mount, with solemn majesty proclaimed the Ten Commandments.--Historical Sketches, p. 231. (1866) {Ev 616.3} The Eternal Dignitaries of the Trinity.--The eternal heavenly dignitaries--God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit--arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, . . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.--Manuscript 145, 1901. {Ev 616.4} Personality of the Holy Spirit.--We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.--Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.) {Ev 616.5} The Holy Spirit is a person, for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. When this witness is borne, it carries with it its own evidence. At such times we believe and are sure that we are the children of God. . . . 617 {Ev 616.6} The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."--Manuscript 20, 1906. {Ev 617.1} The Power of God in the Third Person.--The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.--Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 10, p. 37. (1897) {Ev 617.2} In Co-operation With the Three Highest Powers.-- We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, --and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.--Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, p. 51. (1905) {Ev 617.3} John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted October 21, 2011 Posted October 21, 2011 John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made....14 And the Word (Christ as God) became flesh (the Son of mankind) and dwelt among.... Phil 2:5 Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing (set aside His divinity), taking the form of a servant,being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.... Clearly, Christ set aside His divinity, became a son of humanity. Therefore He could have failed. It was possible. However, before the incarnation the Trinity knew He wouldn't because they can see the future. You are assuming facts that are not in evidence. In other words you are assuming something when is actually nothing.
Robert Posted October 21, 2011 Posted October 21, 2011 You are assuming facts that are not in evidence. Prove that I'm assuming. Stating I am is not evidence.
Gustave Posted October 21, 2011 Posted October 21, 2011 John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made....14 And the Word (Christ as God) became flesh (the Son of mankind) and dwelt among.... Phil 2:5 Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing (set aside His divinity), taking the form of a servant,being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.... Clearly, Christ set aside His divinity, became a son of humanity. Therefore He could have failed. It was possible. However, before the incarnation the Trinity knew He wouldn't because they can see the future. Christ did not set aside His Divinity ( Eternal God was veiled in flesh )... ...I've went through the false SDA reading of the Kenosis multiple times here. Seventh-day Adventists need to realize the blasphemy they are teaching here... ...It's no different than saying Christ could have been one of the babies killed by Herod! ...Or that Jesus could have been attacked and eaten by a crocodile when in Egypt's Nile River! ...Or even Jesus could have died in Mary's womb IF Joseph accused her of being a whore and got a stone party planned. Come on folks - give this heresy of "God" being a free moral agent up!
Robert Posted October 21, 2011 Posted October 21, 2011 Christ did not set aside His Divinity ( Eternal God was veiled in flesh )... When Christ became a man in the incarnation He had to give up not His divinity, but His divine prerogatives, in other words, the independent use of His divinity . Even His God-consciousness had to be given up. Jesus discovered He was God only by revelation. He was not God-conscious as a baby. He had to grow up in knowledge. He had to grow up in everything because He had given up the independent use of His divinity and was made in all things like unto us (Heb. 2:17).
Gustave Posted October 21, 2011 Posted October 21, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gustave Christ did not set aside His Divinity ( Eternal God was veiled in flesh )... When Christ became a man in the incarnation He had to give up not His divinity, but His divine prerogatives, in other words, the independent use of His divinity . Even His God-consciousness had to be given up. Jesus discovered He was God only by revelation. He was not God-conscious as a baby. He had to grow up in knowledge. He had to grow up in everything because He had given up the independent use of His divinity and was made in all things like unto us (Heb. 2:17). That's NOT what you said several posts up ^ Robert. Robert Phil 2:5 Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing (set aside His divinity), taking the form of a servant,being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.... Clearly, Christ set aside His divinity, became a son of humanity. Therefore He could have failed. It was possible. However, before the incarnation the Trinity knew He wouldn't because they can see the future. Of course the Trinity KNEW Christ wouldn't fail..... ...This is why all prophecy in Sacred Scripture said He WOULDN'T FAIL & COULDN'T FAIL. ...Prophecy long prior to the Incarnation.
miz3 Posted October 21, 2011 Posted October 21, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 You are assuming facts that are not in evidence. Prove that I'm assuming. Stating I am is not evidence. Whatever, Robert. This is just a tactic of your desperation.
miz3 Posted October 21, 2011 Posted October 21, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gustave Christ did not set aside His Divinity ( Eternal God was veiled in flesh )... When Christ became a man in the incarnation He had to give up not His divinity, but His divine prerogatives, in other words, the independent use of His divinity . Even His God-consciousness had to be given up. Jesus discovered He was God only by revelation. He was not God-conscious as a baby. He had to grow up in knowledge. He had to grow up in everything because He had given up the independent use of His divinity and was made in all things like unto us (Heb. 2:17). Your unBiblical words and concepts.
Robert Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 That's NOT what you said several posts up ^ Robert. I clarified my position....
Robert Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 Whatever, Robert. No, not "whatever"....Prove I'm assuming.
miz3 Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Whatever, Robert. No, not "whatever"....Prove I'm assuming. Grow up Robert.
Gustave Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 He gave NOTHING UP - He choose not to use certain abilities @ certain times... ...He did this unto death on the Cross. Matthew 21: 18 - 20 - Jesus could have just as easily done the same to any man or nation or whole world for that matter.... ...This is NOT an example of a decaffeinated God. ...Deity was "ALL THERE" - it was just veiled by our flesh. ...So says Sacred Scripture.
miz3 Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 He gave NOTHING UP - He choose not to use certain abilities @ certain times......He did this unto death on the Cross. Matthew 21: 18 - 20 - Jesus could have just as easily done the same to any man or nation or whole world for that matter.... ...This is NOT an example of a decaffeinated God. ...Deity was "ALL THERE" - it was just veiled by our flesh. ...So says Sacred Scripture. SDA are so confused because of what they read in Ellen White that they get confused as to what God's real Word the Bible actually says. They have boxed themselves into this corner and they can only talk jibberish, nonsense, confusion, double talk, and illogical junk. They then pat themselves on the back that they are sooooo cogent and have found the truth. It is sad to watch. One can only pray that God will soon wake them from their delirious sleep.
Robert Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 He gave NOTHING UP - He choose not to use certain abilities @ certain times... He gave up the independent use, period! He was totally God-dependent all through His earthly ministry. John 5:30 says, “I can do nothing of myself.” John 6:57 says, “I live by the Father.” See also John 8:28 and John 14:10. All these texts state very clearly that Christ was totally God-dependent. This won't be true of Christ if He had only limited use of His Deity.
Robert Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 They have boxed themselves into this corner and they can only talk jibberish, nonsense, confusion, double talk, and illogical junk. Sounds like you, Miz3.
Gustave Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gustave He gave NOTHING UP - He choose not to use certain abilities @ certain times... He gave up the independent use, period! He was totally God-dependent all through His earthly ministry. John 5:30 says, “I can do nothing of myself.” John 6:57 says, “I live by the Father.” See also John 8:28 and John 14:10. All these texts state very clearly that Christ was totally God-dependent. This won't be true of Christ if He had only limited use of His Deity. You fail to realize that the Word was ALWAYS dependent on the Father Eternally... ...This is the whole point of the Kenosis. ...That Christ's mind post Incarnation was identical to His mind prior. SDA's, in keeping with Arian theology are required to cast Christ as a "conditional creature"... ...One that was what He was because of an investment The Father ( only wise God ) made "into Him". Ellen White, ST April 14, 1898 Christ's humanity could NOT be separated from His divinity The reasoning behind this was due to Ellen's prophetic utterances... ...That the Divine and Human Natures of Christ were BLENDED or confused. ...Thus "IF" Christ sinned the Divinity of Christ would be sucked out of Christ. ...Leaving a helpless dead meat puppet. The Divinity ONLY belonged to the Father by right of His ( The Father's ) Nature... ...Therefore if Christ didn't tow the rope Christ would have said goodbye to His existence, eternally. ...This was the "Great Risk" and possible 'rupture' SDA's speak of. Ellen White, upward look, 48.4 One man may be required by God to do a work and stand in a position that is peculiarly trying and taxing. The Lord has a work for him to do and he risks his life, his future eternal life, in standing in that place. THIS WAS THE POSITION Christ occupied when He came to our world, entering into conflict with the rebel leader of the fallen angels. God devised a plan, and Christ accepted the position. He consented to meet the foe singlehanded, as every human being must do.He was provided with all the heavenly powers to aid Him in this great conflict; and man, if he walked in the way and will of God, is provided with the same keeping power. The same heavenly intelligences minister unto those who shall be heirs of salvation, that they may overcome every temptation, great or small, as Christ overcame Ellen White, DA 131 Then as the glories of the eternal home burst upon our enraptured senses we shall remember that Jesus left all this for us, that He not ONLY became an exile from the heavenly courts, but for us took the risk of failure AND eternal loss Pay close attention; Ellen White Though Christ humbled Himself to become man, the Godhead was still His own. His Deity could not be lost WHILE He stood faithful and true to His loyalty Ellen White MS 99,1903 page 3,4 He had infinite power ONLY because He was perfectly obedient to His Father's will Like I've previously said multiple times - You do not see SDA's speaking of the Father in this way... ...Simply because SDA's hold that the Father is not mutable ( subject to mutation ). ...While a creature Christ is mutable and can sin and loose their salvation. Christ was equally able to sin and loose His salvation in heaven just like Lucifer... ...This is Arian theology at it's best.
Robert Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 Let's just skip all the nonsense and come to the main point and that is that Christ, as the Son of Man, took upon His humanity (which is our humanity) the 2nd death. If not you are still under the curse of the law.
Gustave Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 Let's just skip all the nonsense and come to the main point and that is that Christ, as the Son of Man, took upon His humanity (which is our humanity) the 2nd death. If not you are still under the curse of the law. Rev 21,8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which IS the second death Your theology obviously has no problem with saying Christ has a part in the 2nd death... ..Of course the "nonsense" is SDAism re-defining what actual terms in the Bible mean. What do you think the 2nd death means Robert?
miz3 Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gustave He gave NOTHING UP - He choose not to use certain abilities @ certain times... He gave up the independent use, period! He was totally God-dependent all through His earthly ministry. John 5:30 says, “I can do nothing of myself.” John 6:57 says, “I live by the Father.” See also John 8:28 and John 14:10. All these texts state very clearly that Christ was totally God-dependent. This won't be true of Christ if He had only limited use of His Deity. Jesus Christ also said that He and the Father are One. What does that "Oneness" mean? Where is the separation in "Oneness"?
miz3 Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 Let's just skip all the nonsense and come to the main point and that is that Christ, as the Son of Man, took upon His humanity (which is our humanity) the 2nd death. If not you are still under the curse of the law. Sounds like you are confused and unable to follow Gustave. You are also unable to follow the inconsistency of Ellen White in regard to the make up Jesus Christ and His relation to the Father? Is Jesus Christ mutable, Robert? Are you unable to answer Gustave?
miz3 Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 Originally Posted By: Robert Let's just skip all the nonsense and come to the main point and that is that Christ, as the Son of Man, took upon His humanity (which is our humanity) the 2nd death. If not you are still under the curse of the law. Rev 21,8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which IS the second death Your theology obviously has no problem with saying Christ has a part in the 2nd death... ..Of course the "nonsense" is SDAism re-defining what actual terms in the Bible mean. What do you think the 2nd death means Robert? Just how confused are you Robert?
Gustave Posted October 23, 2011 Posted October 23, 2011 Jesus Christ also said that He and the Father are One. What does that "Oneness" mean? Where is the separation in "Oneness"? There is no separation between what makes the Word God and what makes the Father and Holy Spirit God... ...It is the ONE Nature or Substance.
Robert Posted October 23, 2011 Posted October 23, 2011 ...the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which IS the second death Your theology obviously has no problem with saying Christ has a part in the 2nd death... ..Of course the "nonsense" is SDAism re-defining what actual terms in the Bible mean. What do you think the 2nd death means Robert? It means death with no hope of a resurrection.
Robert Posted October 23, 2011 Posted October 23, 2011 Some will argue, “How could Christ die the second death? He predicted His resurrection, and He actually rose the third day. How could He experience it?” First of all, the Bible says so. Heb. 2:9: “He tasted death for all men.” It could not be the first death because believers who accept Christ still have to die the first death. Then look at what Paul says in 2 Tim. 1:7-10. He says that Christ, through the cross, has “abolished death.” If He abolished death why do Christians die? Because He abolished only the second death, not the first death. Rev. 20:6 tells us that those who have part in the first resurrection, i.e., the believers, on such the second death has no power. Why? Because there was One who was willing to go through it for us, to taste it. The thing that we need to realize is what we call in theology, “the kenosis doctrine,” based on Phil. 2:6-8. When Christ became a man in the incarnation He had to give up not His divinity, but His divine prerogatives, in other words, the independent use of His divinity. Even His God-consciousness had to be given up. Jesus discovered He was God only by revelation. He was not God-conscious as a baby. He had to grow up in knowledge. He had to grow up in everything because He had given up the independent use of His divinity and was made in all things like unto us (Heb. 2:17). Therefore, He was totally God-dependent all through His earthly ministry. John 5:30 says, “I can do nothing of myself.” John 6:57 says, “I live by the Father.” See also John 8:28 and John 14:10. All these texts state very clearly that Christ was totally God-dependent. Then read Rom 6:4; Acts 2:24, 32; Eph. 1:20. All of these texts clearly tell us that it was the Father who raised Christ from the dead. Keep these two things in mind: Christ was God-dependent, and He was dependent on the Father for the resurrection. Don’t ask me what happened to His divine consciousness when He was in the grave. Where was His divine life? I don’t know. It’s a mystery. We will spend eternity studying that, but I do know one thing, it was the Father He was depending on for the resurrection just like everything else. Do you know what the Father did on the cross? Christ cried out: “Father, Father why have you forsaken me?” What He meant is not “Why are you leaving me for three days?” but, “Why have You abandoned Me?” Do you know what that meant to Christ? It meant that the hope of the resurrection went with that abandonment. When the Father forsook Him in terms of Christ’s feeling, then the hope of the resurrection went with it. Jesus was now “treading the winepress alone.” He could no longer look on the Father with hope and assurance as far as His feelings were concerned. He felt the agony of God-abandonment, exactly what the wicked will feel when mercy no longer pleads with the guilty race. Here is a key passage from Desire of Ages, by E.G. White, p 753: “He could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him the coming forth from the grave a conqueror or tell Him of the Father’s acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that their separation was to be eternal.” Do you realize what Christ was tempted to do on the cross as He hung there? The Father had forsaken Him. But remember, He was still God. He could have taken hold of His divinity independent of the Father, against the Father’s wishes, and come down from the cross to save Himself. That is exactly what the devil tried to get Him to do. In Luke 23:35-39, at least three times the devil approached Christ—once through the Roman soldiers, once through the priests, and once through the thief on the left-hand side. Then, in Matt. 27:35-46, the people also added to that temptation. The temptation was the same, “Come down from the cross and save yourself.” Can you imagine what that temptation was like? We can’t. I’m glad Desire of Ages makes that clear: “The temptation that Christ experienced can never be fully understood by men.... The withdrawal of the Divine Countenance from the Savior in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man.” Ibid. Do you know why? Because there has been no human being in this world who has really, fully, experienced the wrath of God as Christ did. He is the only man who has experienced the fullness of God-abandonment, which is the equivalent of the second death. Christ was tempted to come down from the cross and save Himself. Can you understand the temptation? The issue He faced was not to screw up His will power and say, “I’ll hold on for a few hours or for three days.” That is no sacrifice for a God who lives in eternity. The issue was good-bye to life forever, never again to see His Father, never again to go back to heaven. It meant to give up His glory, to give up His life. That was the issue. That is the curse of God. As He hung on the cross experiencing God’s curse for our sins, Jesus had to make a choice. He could not save Himself and the world at the same time. And He did make the supreme choice. He chose to die eternally that you and I may live in His place. That is what transformed the disciples. They were so shocked! They had not understood such love before as this. It is this concept of agape that turned the world upsidedown, that God not only came down for thirty-three years, but Jesus their Savior was willing to say good-bye to life forever that they may live in His place. “But God demonstrated His love that while we were still sinners Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8). In other words, the supreme sacrifice is that Jesus was willing to accept our curse and give us His life in exchange. It was not a question of saving Himself and the world. He could not do that. He had to make a choice between the world and Himself. Do you know what Christ was saying on the cross? I hope you will never forget this; He was saying that He loves us more than Himself. That is God’s agape.
Robert Posted October 23, 2011 Posted October 23, 2011 Remember, the Jews did not believe in an immortal soul. That is a Greek concept that crept into the Christian church and which unfortunately has robbed the cross of its glory too. The reason is that, if you believe in an immortal soul, then death only means the separation of body and soul. That’s all it is. But to the Jews death was good-bye to life. The unpardonable sin or the curse of God was good-bye to life forever, because in the curse God abandons you, and when God abandons you, He who is the Source of life, the Source of hope, the Source of security is gone. That is what the curse means, and the Jews knew it. When they cried out “Crucify Him,” they were not only asking for Christ to be killed; more than that, they were asking God to bring His curse down upon Him. Maybe they were thinking of a text in Isaiah 53:4. This, of course, is the chapter on the cross in the Old Testament: “Surely He hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted”
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