Robert Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 It's talking about reverencing and respecting God. It isn't talking about being scared of Him. Yes, and it's based on His agape love for us. Because He loves sinners (His enemies) more than Himself is why we love God. Gal 3:3 For it is we (we believers) who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh (i.e., a Christian shouldn't glory in his flesh) This is what John means when He says, "Fear God (reverence God) and give him glory (not ourselves)" And we are told, "For everything in the world (which is under Satan)--the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does--comes not from the Father but from the world."
Robert Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
miz3 Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Why then does the Bible say that we should "fear" God? It's talking about reverencing and respecting God. It isn't talking about being scared of Him. The only ones who should be afraid of God are those who deliberately continue to disobey Him. They need to realize the fact that one day God will utterly destroy all sin and unrepentent sinners. Originally Posted By: miz3 Why does the Bible say on numerous occasions that God hates human people? Again, God hates sin and rebellion, but not the people. He loves all people and sent Christ to die for them. God did not hate the people destroyed in the Flood, nor the people destroyed in Sodom. He did, however, hate their actions and sins. Rev. 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deedsds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. Rev.2:15-- So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate. I was wondering when you would come in to "save" the day. The Bible does not say "reverencing" it says "Fear". You are massaging it to suit your personal view. In many places it says we are to "fear" God. No "massaging" on your part can change that. Good try though John317. Second John317 as to Nicolatains we covered that already. That Revelation text is not part of the debate anymore. There are many other texts already cited in this thread that show that God does indeed hate actual humans. If you want I will cite them again for your edification. Again, John317 good try.
miz3 Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 In Exodus 20 we see the kind of fear God is talking about - their "knees were shaking" as the saw the cloud, the fire, the loud trumpets, the thundering voice of God from Sinai. They said "let not God speak to us any more lest we die". Moses said "fear not" for God has set this whole thing up so that the "fear of God" would be with you and you would not sin. In Isaiah 8 God says "do not fear or be in dread of that which your pagan neighbors fear or are in dread. Rather let Me be your fear, and let Me be your dread". In Matt 10:27-28 Jesus said "do not Fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul, rather fear Him who can destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell". in Christ, Bob Thank your Bob Ryan for supporting my point with the texts you cited. It is much appreciated. As to Matthew chapter ten God is the only One who can kill BOTH. Thus, we have a COMMAND FROM JESUS CHRIST TO BE AFRAID OF GOD because God can kill both the body and the soul. Thanks again, Bob Ryan I appreciate Biblical support for my position.
miz3 Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 It's talking about reverencing and respecting God. It isn't talking about being scared of Him. Yes, and it's based on His agape love for us. Because He loves sinners (His enemies) more than Himself is why we love God. Gal 3:3 For it is we (we believers) who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh (i.e., a Christian shouldn't glory in his flesh) This is what John means when He says, "Fear God (reverence God) and give him glory (not ourselves)" And we are told, "For everything in the world (which is under Satan)--the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does--comes not from the Father but from the world." Not relevant because no one is saying that God does not Love. In addition these texts do not counter the texts I cited that clearly say: 1. God hates actual humans. 2. Humans are to FEAR GOD.
miz3 Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Again, NOT RELEVANT because no one disagrees with this text which God LOVES. We all agree that God Loves. You have yet to grapple with the texts that state: 1. God hates actual human persons. 2. Humans are to FEAR GOD. I am still waiting for you to deal with those Biblical texts.
Moderators John317 Posted October 17, 2011 Moderators Posted October 17, 2011 The Bible does not say "reverencing" it says "Fear". You are massaging it to suit your personal view. In many places it says we are to "fear" God. No "massaging" on your part can change that. Good try though John317. The Greek word is phobeomai (Strongs# 5399). Greek-English lexions give "to fear," "to reverence," "to fear reverentially," "to respect," "to stand in awe of," as definitons. Consider its use in the following verses: Mark 6:20 for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man... Luke 1:50 And his mercy is for those who fear him from generation to generation. Acts 10:2 a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God. Ephes. 5:33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband. Rev. 11:18 The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth." Romans 11:20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. At Rev. 14: 7, God's New Covenant reads, "'Stand in awe of God and give due honor to Him...'" (Translated by Heinz W. Cassirer) The Simple English Bible renders it: "'Respect God and give Him glory...'" Phillips Modern English has, "'Reverence God, and give glory to Him..." John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 17, 2011 Moderators Posted October 17, 2011 ... There are many other texts already cited in this thread that show that God does indeed hate actual humans. If you want I will cite them again for your edification. Yes, could you please cite Bible texts which you believe show that Jesus hates some individuals? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 17, 2011 Moderators Posted October 17, 2011 2. Humans are to FEAR GOD. I am still waiting for you to deal with those Biblical texts. See post#485522 above. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 18, 2011 Moderators Posted October 18, 2011 None of these texts say that "God loves sinners MORE THAN HIMSELF. They say God loves sinners. But they do not say "MORE THAN HIMSELF". There are many texts which show that God puts the welfare of others before Himself. In other words, the Bible gives convincing evidence that God is unselfish. John 3: 16 is one of the best examples. He gave up His only Son in order to save people who were in rebellion against Him. Someone who loves Himself more than others wouldn't do that. Jesus didn't leave the glory of heaven to come here because God loves Himself more than He loves us. His actions prove that God loves us with an infinite love. Originally Posted By: miz3 As to the "agape is not self-seeking". That is your human definition. The Bible does not give that as the definition. NKJV--1 Cor. 13:-- "[Agape/love]does not behave rudely, does not seek its own..." God's love is not self-seeking. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Gustave Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 Divinity is Divinity. Whether Divinity is the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit it is the SAME DIVINITY. You cannot separate Divinity. It either is or it isn't. Jesus Christ was both fully Divine and fully Human in a singular Entity. When the Bible says that Divinity sprang through Jesus Christ it does not matter because Divinity is Divinity and it is always the same. The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit are NOT separate Divinities. The Divinity is the same. I know this hard for you to follow because the "sinful mind" as Paul says in Romans chapter eight cannot think properly about Spiritual Things because it is impossible. Only God through the Spirit can give you the Truth (1Corinthians chapter two). That is the reason why so many get it wrong because they depend on their info from too many "outside" sources that are also sinful human polluted brains. If this is too hard for you to accept now, I hope that someday God will open you to accept God as He is. This ^ is absolutely correct theology / Doctrine. The Personality is not what makes The Father God... ...It is the Substance - the identical Substance both the Son and Holy Spirit equally share in. ...To suggest that Christ died the 2nd death is blasphemy / is along the same lines of saying Christ could have sinned.
Moderators John317 Posted October 18, 2011 Moderators Posted October 18, 2011 The Personality is not what makes The Father God......It is the Substance - the identical Substance both the Son and Holy Spirit equally share in. I agree. That is why we do indeed worship One God. Hebrews 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature [or "substance," "essence"], and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 18, 2011 Moderators Posted October 18, 2011 ...To suggest that Christ died the 2nd death is blasphemy / is along the same lines of saying Christ could have sinned. I agreed with your previous statement, but I cannot agree with this. I believe Christ died the second death and that He could have chosen to sin. Christ did not do what He did because He had no choice. He could have come down off the cross. He could have decided that the cost was too much to pay for humanity. Christ was a free agent. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 18, 2011 Moderators Posted October 18, 2011 In Matt 10:27-28 Jesus said "do not Fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul, rather fear Him who can destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell". ....As to Matthew chapter ten God is the only One who can kill BOTH. Thus, we have a COMMAND FROM JESUS CHRIST TO BE AFRAID OF GOD because God can kill both the body and the soul. Jesus' command is to fear God instead of fearing people. But Jesus is not telling us merely to be afraid of God. Fearing God won't save anyone unless it leads to repentence and faith in Him. What was the attitude of people in the Bible who knew God the best? Were they frightened of God? Among the ones who have known God the best are Enoch,Job, Moses, David, Isaiah, and Jesus. And since Jesus is just like the Father, the disciples also got to know God in Christ very well. Do we see any evidence that these people were scared or frightened of God? Isaiah and Job certainly became aware of their sinfulness, but their conviction of sin caused them to repent and put their confidence in God. Were the disciples scared of Jesus? They were in awe of Him and they reverenced, worshipped and loved Him, but I don't know of any who were actually frightened of Him. The Jewish leaders both hated and feared Him: Mark 11:15-18 And they came to Jerusalem. And he entered the temple and began to drive out those who sold and those who bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons. [16] And he would not allow anyone to carry anything through the temple. [17] And he was teaching them and saying to them, "Is it not written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations'? But you have made it a den of robbers." [18] And the chief priests and the scribes heard it and were seeking a way to destroy him, for they feared him, because all the crowd was astonished at his teaching. NOTE: Fear itself will not save anyone. The Jewish leaders feared Christ but their fear didn't lead them to the right response-- repentence, faith, and love. Instead, their fear led them to kill the innocent Son of God. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BobRyan Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 The fear of the Lord is the "beginning of Wisdom" because it is the point where we finally understand just what we would need to stand in the presence of a Holy, Just, Righteous all-knowing God -- a Savior. Even God's love inspires fear because of the contrast between his pure Love and your own depths of selfishness. It is like being told that you are really the close blood relative of the sovereign of your nation, your planet, your galaxy... your universe!! Walking through the high and lofty halls of the palace of the great Sovereign King, footsteps echoing as you go... it is no wonder that God tells Moses to take of his shoes - for the place upon which he stands is "Holy Ground". It is no wonder that the disciple that knew Him best - falls as a dead man - when in the presence of an Angel of God. in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 Not relevant because no one is saying that God does not Love. In addition these texts do not counter the texts I cited that clearly say: 1. God hates actual humans. 2. Humans are to FEAR GOD. While your point #2 can be supported - your point 1 cannot. For God says that He has "no pleasure in the death of ANYONE" in fact He says that "HE is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance". 2Peter 3. Christ said that He "draws ALL MANKIND unto Him" John 12:32. John says that Jesus was the "Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the whole WORLD" 1john 2:2. God is in fact "dying" to save mankind rather than arbitrarily loving some and hating others. in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Members phkrause Posted October 18, 2011 Members Posted October 18, 2011 Not only that why would God allow his Son to come and die for our sins if he hated humans? Makes no sense at all. phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Moderators John317 Posted October 18, 2011 Moderators Posted October 18, 2011 It shows how false it is to say God hates anyone. I don't believe God hates any creature he's made. In fact, the reason God hates sin is that sin does harm to the creatures He loves. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Parade Orange Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 to catch A GLIMPSE OF A LOVING GOD! dont take that for granted folks! but there is so much more than what we see A LOVE THAT CANNOT BE RATIONALIZED OR UNDERSTOOD but it exists a love for a sinner by a holy GOD astouds and offends All progress in the Spiritual Life is knowing and Loving GOD"there is non upon earth that I desire besides YOU" PS 73:25That perspective changes EVERYTHING-suffering and adversity are the means that makes us hungry for GOD. Disapointments will wean us away wordly occupations. Even sin(when repented of) becomes a mechanism to push us closer to HIM as we experience His Love and Forgiveness.
Moderators John317 Posted October 18, 2011 Moderators Posted October 18, 2011 John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 18, 2011 Moderators Posted October 18, 2011 John: You state: "Did Christ's life originate with the Father? If so, then it's not true that Christ's life was original. Yet Ellen White clearly says Christ's life was original and NOT derived from the Father." However, EGW states: " "In him was life; and the life was the light of men." It is not physical life that is here specified, but eternal life, the life which is exclusively the property of God. The Word, who was with God, and who was God, had this life. Physical life is something which each individual received. It is not eternal or immortal; for God, the Lifegiver, takes it again. . . . But the life of Christ was unborrowed. No one can take this life from Him. "I lay it down of myself," He said. . . . This life is not inherent in man. He can possess it only through Christ. He cannot earn it; it is given him as a free gift if he will believe in Christ as his personal Saviour. "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" (John 17:3). This is the open fountain of life for the world (The SDA Bible Commentary, Ellen G. White Comments, vol. 5, p. 1130). " John, if you are given this life (original, unborrowed, and underived) as a gift through Christ, how could it be "original and not derived"?? But Ellen White never said that humans will receive "original, unborrowed, underived life" as a gift through Christ. No one can receive it. Only Deity has it. That would be like saying Deity can make humans self-existent. It's a flat contradiction in terms. Life originated with God and with Christ, right? How then can God or Christ give you life that originates in you? Absolutely impossible! You may as well ask God for a round triangle or a square rectangle. The saved receive eternal life, which begins now, and when Christ returns, the saved receive the gift of immortality. Anything received cannot be original with the receiver. The statement in DA 530 says that "in Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived." What does that mean? Do you interpret that to mean that Christ got his life from the Father? Why did that statement cause so many SDAs to restudy the doctrine of God and come to the conclusion that Jesus Christ did not derive His existence from the Father? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 18, 2011 Moderators Posted October 18, 2011 I don't fear God. I fear being without God. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 The Bible does not say "reverencing" it says "Fear". You are massaging it to suit your personal view. In many places it says we are to "fear" God. No "massaging" on your part can change that. Good try though John317. The Greek word is phobeomai (Strongs# 5399). Greek-English lexions give "to fear," "to reverence," "to fear reverentially," "to respect," "to stand in awe of," as definitons. Consider its use in the following verses: Mark 6:20 for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man... Luke 1:50 And his mercy is for those who fear him from generation to generation. Acts 10:2 a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God. Ephes. 5:33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband. Rev. 11:18 The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth." Romans 11:20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. At Rev. 14: 7, God's New Covenant reads, "'Stand in awe of God and give due honor to Him...'" (Translated by Heinz W. Cassirer) The Simple English Bible renders it: "'Respect God and give Him glory...'" Phillips Modern English has, "'Reverence God, and give glory to Him..." That changes nothing. It still means exactly what the Bible says "FEAR". FEAR IS FEAR. Once again you are trying to be "linguistically cute". Again, John317 good try. The Translators knew what they were doing when they translated the word, FEAR, they do it without any qualifications such as you are doing. It is what it is. By the way "Strong" is not the only translator nor is he the "last word" in translation. Again, good try John317.
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