Did Christ Die the Second Death

[Gustave]

Quote:

...For Pete's sake, Froom even formally admitted there were NO soul sleeping adovcates until the 12th century

Give the exact source, and page. I want to read this.

[Gustave]

Not if your Bible is Catholic.

[miz3]

"Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection. 37 But in the account of the bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[c] 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!” 40 And no one dared to ask him any more questions."

Luke 20:34-40.

Notice the clinching statement by Jesus Christ. It states that God is the God of "the living".

That is the critical point. It does not say that God is the God of the "dead" in fact it rejects that very concept. It also does not say that God is the God of the "soul-sleepers" either.

In fact Jesus Christ goes particularly out of His way to stress that God is the God of "the living only".

In fact Jesus Christ references Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to point that these three men are NOT DEAD. These three men then must be like the "angels" which Christ referred to in His answer.

1. Jesus Christ does not say these are "immortal souls".

2. Jesus Christ does not say that the "soul" is present by itself.

3. Jesus Christ is admit that "these children of God" are like the angels.

4. Jesus Christ states that these three, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are not at present (according to His time of speaking to the Jews) in some "soul-sleep" waiting for the Second Coming.

5. The doctrine of "soul-sleep" is not a clear truth by any stretch of the imagination in the Bible. Especially when you look at Jesus Christ's Word to Lazarus' sister about those that believe in Jesus Christ "will never die".

7. Those who believe in "soul-sleep" rest on many assumptions and not on the clearness of the Bible.

8. It appears that the teachers of the law agreed with Jesus Christ that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not "dead" and that these three were also not in some "soul-sleep".

[John317]

Gustave, please see posts #487572 and #487658.

[John317]

"Jesus replied, The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection. 37 But in the account of the bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.[c] 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.

39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, Well said, teacher! 40 And no one dared to ask him any more questions."

Luke 20:34-40.

Notice the clinching statement by Jesus Christ. It states that God is the God of "the living".

That is the critical point. It does not say that God is the God of the "dead" in fact it rejects that very concept.

Are you claiming that those men did not die?

The Bible clearly says that those men did in fact die. It says they died and were buried.

Are they dead?

What says the Scriptures?

1) On Abraham:

Genesis 25:7-11

These are the days of the years of Abraham's life, 175 years. [8] Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people. [9] Isaac and Ishmael his sons buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, east of Mamre, [10] the field that Abraham purchased from the Hittites. There Abraham was buried, with Sarah his wife. [11] After the death of Abraham, God blessed Isaac his son. And Isaac settled at Beer-lahai-roi.

2) On Issac:

Genesis 27:2

He said, "Behold, I am old; I do not know the day of my death.

NOTE: Although the Bible doesn't contain a record of Issac's having died, we do know that he believed the day would come when he would die, and we have a record of Issac's having been buried (Gen. 49: 31). So he must have died because we can assume he wasn't buried alive.

3) On Jacob:

Genesis 49:33

When Jacob finished commanding his sons, he drew up his feet into the bed and breathed his last and was gathered to his people.

Genesis 50:13-14

for his sons carried him [Jacob] to the land of Canaan and buried him in the cave of the field at Machpelah, to the east of Mamre, which Abraham bought with the field from Ephron the Hittite to possess as a burying place. [14] After he had buried his father, Joseph returned to Egypt with his brothers and all who had gone up with him to bury his father.

So we know that these men died and were buried.

The question is, what did Jesus mean? Was Jesus saying that the dead aren't really dead? Are the dead actually alive?

Does John 11 help us understand what Jesus was saying in Luke 20: 34-40?

In John 11: 11-14, Jesus says:

[11] After saying these things, he said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him." [12] The disciples said to him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover." [13] Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. [14] Then Jesus told them plainly, "Lazarus has died."

Notice that Jesus says that Lazarus is both asleep and dead.

Jesus doesn't say Lazarus' soul is asleep but that Lazarus himself-- the entire man-- is alseep. That's because Lazarus himself is a soul. He was a dead soul, or a sleeping soul.

Why did Jesus say this?

Jesus said it because he knew he would wake Lazarus up.

Jesus said, "I go that I may wake [Lazarus] up" (v. 11).

Jesus also said, John 11:25

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live."

Why is everyone alive to God?

The reason is that God lives in the eternal present. The resurrection of Abraham and Issac and Jacob are so certain that in God's mind, it has already happened.

James 1:17

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.

Rev. 1:8

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

[John317]

Not if your Bible is Catholic.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Yeah, that's what you say isn't it...

...Facts are that Christ and the Apostles "used it".

...To them it was Scripture.

Prove from the NT that Christ used/considered the Apocrypha as Scripture.

[John317]

[quote name="Gustave

The Apocrypha' date=' or Deuterocanonical books, are not canonical. Even Jerome understood this. He placed them at the end of the Old Testament with the superscription "Apocrypha."

Originally Posted By: Gustave

So, ECF's are not infallible AND....

What are ECF's? I don't like to use initials unless everyone is clear about their meaning.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

...St. Jerome ACCEPTED that the Deuterocanonicals WERE Scripture.

...By the authority of THE CHURCH.

Jerome only included them in the Bible because he was told to. Like I say, Jerome put them at the end of the Old Testament with the superscription "Apocrypha."

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Same as the other ECF's who happned to not like the Book of Revelation / Hebrews / etc....

...Point is they ALL accepted the determination of the Church.

The acceptance of the book of Revelation has nothing to do with the determination of the Church in some council. The acceptance of Revelation and all the other books is due to their acceptance by the Christian congregations throughout history. The Church merely confirmed what the various congregations throughout the world had already been doing, which was to read and receive those books as Scripture. The books of the Bible were not forced on the congregations.

The congregations accepted them during the first 3 centuries because they recognized that their lives had been changed by them and that the Holy Spirit used them to bring people to Christ and to understand the gospel and salvation.

Originally Posted By: John317

I have Bibles that contain those books, and I have no problem with them, as long as it is understood that they are not canonical.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

According to "who" John?

...Exactly WHO told you they are not Scripture?[/quote']

1) They were not accepted by the Hebrew people as inspired Scripture.

2) There's no evidence that Christ ever quoted them or considered them as Scripture.

3) There's no evidence that Paul, Peter, or the other apostles believed them to be inspired.

4) They contradict the rest of Scripture.

5) They don't meet the high standards of the rest of the Bible. For instance, Tobit has an angel of God who lies. Bel and the Dragon is foolishness. 1 Maccabees says that the prophets had already ceased to appear, plainly showing that it was not written by an genuine prophet of God.

6) It's acknowledged even by the Roman Catholic Church that some of the books of the Apocrypha are not reliable.

7) Finally, as I read the Scriptures, I can tell which ones are of God and which ones are not. I don't hear the voice of God speaking to me in the books contained in the Apocrypha, but I do when I study the rest of the Bible. This is exactly the way the churches throughout the world distinguished betweeen the genuine Scriptures and the false. The Christians didn't need a priest or some council to tell them which books were Scripture and which were false.

Here's what Jesus said:

John 7:17

If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.

John 8:47

Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."

John 16:13

When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

[John317]

...Yet you claim parsing Koine Greek demonstrates a belief you yourself admit was alien in 1st century Judaism.

You appear not to understand what I said about parsing the Greek of Acts 12: 15.

What it proves is that the angel was Peter's angel, not Peter himself.

It proves that the correct translation is, "It is his angel."

Finally, it shows that autou is "of him," not "himself."

This is explained in detail on posts #487572 and #487658.

[John317]

As for D.A. Carson his works are included in the Logos Bible software...

...And he is considered a heavy-weight Greek scholar.

So tell me what he says about Acts 12: 15.

You brought Carson up because you claim he agrees with you about that verse.

Please quote what he says about it.

What you said about Strong shows me that you didn't even understand what Strong wrote. So since you also think that Carson agrees with you, I have to believe that you don't understand Carson any better than you do Strong.

But we will know as soon as you quote what you are referring to in his statements about Acts 12: 15.

[John317]

Actually, I really like the (Catholic) New American Bible and consider it one of the most accuratte translations of the Critical Text of the NT. I admire many things about Catholic scholarship. I sometimes watch the Catholic channel and have many Catholic relatives. My wife was Catholic for the first 5 years of our marriage and I used to take her to mass and sit in the church with her during the service.

So I am not opposed to all things Catholic, nor do I dislike Catholics. What I don't like and believe in, though, are certain Catholic institutions and doctrines because they are contrary to the Scriptures.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Hmmm, I'm not that fond of the NABCE, even though I have a very nice one...

Why not? It is a very faithful rendering of the United Bible Society's Greek Text-- in fact, probably the most faithful.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

...I'm a DR, RSV or KJV fan myself.

OK, so you like the Douey-Rheims, the RSV, and the KJV. That's kind of an odd combination. It means you must like the way KJV translated Rev. 22: 14:

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I also like the KJV and the RSV. One of my favorite study Bibles is the RSV and NRSV Harper Study Bible, with notes by Herold Lindsell, the former editor of Christianity Today.

My room-mate and closest friend was Catholic, and I got a Douey-Rheims translation from the SDA pastor and gave it to him. He was eventually baptized into Christ along with me and joined the SDA church.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

...I'm also NOT a fan of the USCCB either.

What is USCCB?

[John317]

Well John317, since you appear to be the authority of what Jews believe....

...You should take issue with the following from the Jewish Encyclopedia.

QUOTE:

Like ALL ancient peoples, the early Hebrews believed that the dead go down into the underworld and live there a colorless existence (comp. Isa. xiv. 15-19; Ezek. xxxii. 21-30). Only an occasional person, and he an especially fortunate one, like Enoch or Elijah, could escape from Sheol, and these were taken to heaven to the abode of Yhwh, where they became angels (comp. Slavonic Enoch, xxii.). In the Book of Job first the longing for a resurrection is expressed (xiv. 13-15), and then, if the Masoretic text may be trusted, a passing conviction that such a resurrection will occur (xix. 25, 26). The older Hebrew conception of life regarded the nation so entirely as a unit that no individual mortality or immortality was considered. Jeremiah (xxxi. 29) and Ezekiel (xviii.) had contended that the individual was the moral unit, and Job's hopes are based on this idea.

Like I said John, your premise ONLY works on people who are not educated...

What premise are you talking about?

Do you mean educated by the Jewish Encyclopedia? That is high school stuff, Gustave.

But in any case, nobody is claiming that many modern Jews don't have a belief in the immortality of the soul. I'm talking about the Hebrew Bible, not what some Hebrews thought or what modern Jews think.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

"Jesus replied, The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection. 37 But in the account of the bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.[c] 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.

39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, Well said, teacher! 40 And no one dared to ask him any more questions."

Luke 20:34-40.

Notice the clinching statement by Jesus Christ. It states that God is the God of "the living".

That is the critical point. It does not say that God is the God of the "dead" in fact it rejects that very concept.

Are you claiming that those men did not die?

The Bible clearly says that those men did in fact die. It says they died and were buried.

Are they dead?

What says the Scriptures?

1) On Abraham:

Genesis 25:7-11

These are the days of the years of Abraham's life, 175 years. [8] Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people. [9] Isaac and Ishmael his sons buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, east of Mamre, [10] the field that Abraham purchased from the Hittites. There Abraham was buried, with Sarah his wife. [11] After the death of Abraham, God blessed Isaac his son. And Isaac settled at Beer-lahai-roi.

2) On Issac:

Genesis 27:2

He said, "Behold, I am old; I do not know the day of my death.

NOTE: Although the Bible doesn't contain a record of Issac's having died, we do know that he believed the day would come when he would die, and we have a record of Issac's having been buried (Gen. 49: 31). So he must have died because we can assume he wasn't buried alive.

3) On Jacob:

Genesis 49:33

When Jacob finished commanding his sons, he drew up his feet into the bed and breathed his last and was gathered to his people.

Genesis 50:13-14

for his sons carried him [Jacob] to the land of Canaan and buried him in the cave of the field at Machpelah, to the east of Mamre, which Abraham bought with the field from Ephron the Hittite to possess as a burying place. [14] After he had buried his father, Joseph returned to Egypt with his brothers and all who had gone up with him to bury his father.

So we know that these men died and were buried.

The question is, what did Jesus mean? Was Jesus saying that the dead aren't really dead? Are the dead actually alive?

Does John 11 help us understand what Jesus was saying in Luke 20: 34-40?

In John 11: 11-14, Jesus says:

[11] After saying these things, he said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him." [12] The disciples said to him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover." [13] Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. [14] Then Jesus told them plainly, "Lazarus has died."

Notice that Jesus says that Lazarus is both asleep and dead.

Jesus doesn't say Lazarus' soul is asleep but that Lazarus himself-- the entire man-- is alseep. That's because Lazarus himself is a soul. He was a dead soul, or a sleeping soul.

Why did Jesus say this?

Jesus said it because he knew he would wake Lazarus up.

Jesus said, "I go that I may wake [Lazarus] up" (v. 11).

Jesus also said, John 11:25

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live."

Why is everyone alive to God?

The reason is that God lives in the eternal present. The resurrection of Abraham and Issac and Jacob are so certain that in God's mind, it has already happened.

James 1:17

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.

Rev. 1:8

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

1. No. I am not claiming these men did not die because as you have pointed out from the Bible that these men did indeed die.

2. I am claiming:

a. That doctrine of "soul-sleep" is not Biblical.

b. That at minimum humans do not actually know what happens after death.

c. That there is viable evidence in Scripture that it is possible for Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and other "saved" humans to be enjoying heaven----not as ghostly souls-----but as whole entities just like Jesus Christ at His Resurrection.

d. That it is just possible that the "saved" who belong to God and Jesus Christ are resurrected in much the same manner as Moses. That is a "short" time after death the saved are resurrected to ever be with the Lord.

3. As to Lazarus, of course Jesus Christ would refer to it as a sleep because He knew He was about to raise Lazarus to life on this earth again. That only makes sense.

4. Jesus Christ, Himself, was the model for this. He died and was shortly after death raised with a new humanity.

5. The concept of "soul-sleep" is not in the Bible.

[Robert]

4. Jesus Christ, Himself, was the model for this. He died and was shortly after death raised with a new humanity.

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh (sarx) and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep (remain dead until the resurrection), but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump (hence the 2nd coming): for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?

Clearly it is at the 2nd coming that the living shall be changed and the dead shall be resurrected in a glorified state. The change is in nature. The old life we received from Adam indwelt with iniquity remains forever in the grave. We will be raised as Christ was raised - sinless.

[Robert]

There is no life after death, until the resurrection. Any teaching outside this truth is the highest form of heresy.

[Ron Lambert]

Robert, let me ask you a question. If you believe that the spirit of life is no more than an energizing spark, like electricity in a lightbulb (to use the common illustration), then how do you know for sure that a person who is resurrected is really the same person who died, and not just a physical copy with duplicate memories, who only thinks he is the original person? How can we prove to others that God is not working some kind of a fraud?

If the spirit is merely an energizing spark, then why should it return to God in death, as stated in Ecclesiastes 12:7: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

The only satisfactory answer to this is to realize that the spirit of life is more than a mere energizing spark, it also includes an essential personal identity. This does not mean there is consciousness in death. We need a brain to think with, and be able to be aware of anything, including the passage of time. But when God decides to resurrect someone, He has to return the original spirit of life with the original identity to this earth, so that whatever new body it is combined with, it is still truly the original person. I challenge anyone to come up with any other explanation that is adequate.

Jesus Himself said: "But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Matthew 22:31, 32) So we must ask ourselves, how is it that those we count as being dead, are still alive to God?

Let me go further, and ask you a similar question about the Incarnation of Jesus. If the spirit of life is merely an energizing spark, then how did the Holy Spirit put the divine Son of God into the physical body forming in Mary's womb? Clearly the Holy Spirit did not put the Son of God's body into her womb--the egg that began to multiply and grow was entirely human, with nothing but human DNA. So how was divinity combined with humanity? This is the single most important element in soteriology (how Christ can be our Savior), because it is the Incarnation of Christ that qualifies Him to represent humanity as the New Adam, take responsibility for the sins of our entire race, and execute the penalty against all the sins of humanity in Himself, and also qualifies Him to provide a new life, a new history, a new heritage in Himself that is sinless, which alone entitles us to renewed fellowship with God.

Here again, we are forced to concede that there is an essential personal identity that is part of the spirit of life that is combined with the body to produce a human soul. Otherwise it is impossible to believe that Christ could be both entirely human and entirely divine, and was truly the same Person who was the Son of God before the Incarnation, and again was truly the same Person after His Resurrection. This is the only way that Divinity could truly be combined with humanity.

The standard analogy many SDA evangelists use of likening the spirit to electricity in a lightbulb, is inadequate. It is not entirely wrong, but it obviously does not go far enough. It is superficial and simplistic. I wonder how many people who have come to our evangelistic campaigns have heard this analogy and seen the inadequacy of it, especially as it relates the the Incarnation of Christ and to our promised Resurrection.

Now, if I may add on an additional question most of us have probably never thought about before--what happened to the pre-Incarnation body of the Son of God (formerly known to the Angels as Michael) when He became Incarnated into the human body prepared for Him by the Holy Spirit in Mary's womb? Did Michael's body vanish? Did Michael seem to die? What might the angels have witnessed on their end? Was there some kind of ceremony in Heaven?

Redently I noticed this often overlooked comment by Ellen G. White that the Incarnation was a "painful process": "The work of redemption is called a mystery, and it is indeed the mystery by which everlasting righteousness is brought to all who believe. The race in consequence of sin was at enmity with God. Christ, at an infinite cost, by a painful process, mysterious to angels as well as to men, assumed humanity." (MS 29, 1899; also in 7BC 915.3)

[Gustave]

You appear not to understand what I said about parsing the Greek of Acts 12: 15.

What it proves is that the angel was Peter's angel, not Peter himself.

It proves that the correct translation is, "It is his angel."

Finally, it shows that autou is "of him," not "himself."

This is explained in detail on posts #487572 and #487658

What we are talking about is the "IT" & whatever "IT" was...

...Wasn't Peter, it was his angel.

D.A. Carson Commentary on Matthew Zondervan 1995

The most likely explanation is the one Warfield defends. The “angels” of the “little ones” are their spirits after death and they always see the heavenly Father’s face. Do not despise these little ones, Jesus says, for their destiny is the unshielded glory of the Father’s presence. The present tense (they “always see”) raises no difficulty because Jesus is dealing with a class, not individuals. The same interpretation admirably suits Acts 12:15: what the assembled group thinks is standing outside is Peter’s “spirit” (angel), which accounts for Rhoda’s recognition of his voice.

If you wish to check out Carson's educational background and his level of Greek....

...Feel free to fact check the following.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/bio/dacarson.html

[Robert]

If the spirit is merely an energizing spark, then why should it return to God in death, as stated in Ecclesiastes 12:7: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

Again, what in your humanity is naturally good/righteous? If you can point to something then whatever it is doesn't need Christ's atonement for sin.

As to your quote above, well it's crouched in metaphoric language:

Verse 6 Remember him--before the silver cord is severed, or the golden bowl is broken; before the pitcher is shattered at the spring, or the wheel broken at the well, 7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (breath) returns to God who gave it.

Verses 6 & 7 are full of metaphors! Notice the "dust" returns to the ground. What is this referring to? Gen 2:7 "The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground..."

So we are made from the earth and when we die we return to dust. Our breath returning to God is simply a metaphor that means life came from God and upon death it returns.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

4. Jesus Christ, Himself, was the model for this. He died and was shortly after death raised with a new humanity.

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh (sarx) and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep (remain dead until the resurrection), but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump (hence the 2nd coming): for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?

Clearly it is at the 2nd coming that the living shall be changed and the dead shall be resurrected in a glorified state. The change is in nature. The old life we received from Adam indwelt with iniquity remains forever in the grave. We will be raised as Christ was raised - sinless.

1. I agree with your last two sentences.

2. There is no mention in this text of the Second Coming. It does say however:

a. We shall not sleep (that is soul-sleep).

b. We shall be changed (when we are resurrected).

c. The change will happen instantaneously.

d. At the "last trump". That is not reference to the Second Coming. It is the "last trump" to those resurrected like Moses and Jesus Christ. Both heard the call of God to enter Heaven immortal. Moses will never hear such a call (the last trump) to come from the grave again. To Moses it was the "last trump".

[Robert]

The “angels” of the “little ones” are their spirit....

Sorry, "little ones", while innocent in many respects are selfish and therefore need a Savior.

The Bible teaches that we are born bent to self and therefore self-love dominates our being at birth instead of agape love. If such a child were permitted to enter heaven, heaven would become hell because one sinner would ruin all that is good and holy in there.

[Robert]

At the "last trump". That is not reference to the Second Coming.

Matt 24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

[Robert]

a. We shall not sleep (that is soul-sleep).

John 11:11 Jesus: "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up." 12 His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him."

Again, the Bible is full of metaphors. All men die, but because there's a resurrection it's called a sleep. When you go to bed at night your alarm clock wakes you in the morning.

Since the believer is promised a resurrection then it is referred to as a sleep since the trumpet of God will call him/her forth at the 2nd coming.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

At the "last trump". That is not reference to the Second Coming.

Matt 24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

That does not mean the 1Corinthians chapter 15 is linked to Matthew chapter 24 just because both use the word "trump or trumpet".

Besides this "trumpet call" is talking about gathering those who are still alive. Matthew chapter twenty-four says nothing about gathering the "dead" or gathering those that "are sleeping".

Once again, Robert you are trying to link two texts together that are not linked and then you use tortured logic not inherent in the texts to make them say something they are not saying. This is not honest nor is it good study. Such faulty study often comes when we put our "preconceived idea" into the Bible when such ideas are clearly not present.

[Robert]

... tortured logic....This is not honest.... "preconceived idea"

Really, Miz3, this is getting old. Can you read my mind? Do you know that I am trying to be dishonest? If not, then please stop and think before your let your tongue wag.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

a. We shall not sleep (that is soul-sleep).

John 11:11 Jesus: "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up." 12 His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him."

Again, the Bible is full of metaphors. All men die, but because there's a resurrection it's called a sleep. When you go to bed at night your alarm clock wakes you in the morning.

Since the believer is promised a resurrection then it is referred to as a sleep since the trumpet of God will call him/her forth at the 2nd coming.

The reason Jesus Christ called this "sleep" because Jesus Christ was imminently going to raise Lazarus from the dead. Lazarus was not going to remain in the grave for long eons of time. No one is disputing that dead=sleep. What we are disputing is that such a death or sleep last for thousands of years until the Second Coming.

You need to read the rest of John chapter eleven. Did you read where Christ says that those who believe in Him "never die". The context of the chapter is not one filled with "metaphors" it is filled with facts.

1. Lazarus was sleeping (FACT not metaphor) until Jesus Christ raised Lazarus from the dead.

2. Jesus Christ said that He was the "Resurrection and the Life" when the sister tried to refer such a thing to the so-called later day resurrection Jesus Christ corrected her and then asked her if she "believed this".

3. It would be cruel to both those who are "saved" and to God Himself to make everyone wait till some eons of time later to unite and be forever with the Lord. What you are advocating is cruel and heartless.

4. Moses was "sleeping" until Jesus Christ raised Moses from the dead (sleep). Moses did not lie in the grave for thousands of years. Why should we then believe that any of God's Children will lie in the grave for thousands of years?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

... tortured logic....This is not honest.... "preconceived idea"

Really, Miz3, this is getting old. Can you read my mind? Do you know that I am trying to be dishonest? If not, then please stop and think before your let your tongue wag.

I agree that the "dishonest" part should be left out. Sorry, I apologize for this usage.

However, I will not withdraw the "tortured logic" and the "preconceived ideas" part. This is clearly TRUE.