miz3 Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 The qualifier is the next two phrases which tell us that this text is referring ONLY TO WHAT HAPPENS ON THIS EARTH. But what biblical evidence do you have that the dead know any more in heaven than they do on earth? The dead know nothing of what happens on earth, right? Yet, if they know so much after their death, why wouldn't they know what's happening on earth? Also, if they know nothing of what happens on earth, why do so many people pray to them and ask them about things going on here on the earth? Catholics, for instance, believe that Mary has returned to the earth after her death and given people wise messages and that she knows more about what's happening on earth now than she ever did before she died. How can this be, and is such a belief biblical? I have told you already what happens after death and that covers the answers to all your questions. Did you read my "Aunt Tilly Principle"?
Moderators John317 Posted October 27, 2011 Moderators Posted October 27, 2011 And the dead in Christ will rise first. What "rises" John317? The righteous dead rise to life, or are resurrected. The dead will live again. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 1. There is no indication in the Bible that the "unique personality" when it returns to God is unconscious either. We do not know what happens to this "unique personality" that God breathed into each one of us when it returns to God who gave it. 2. You are making the same mistake Lysimachus made by putting a period after that phrase when the Bible puts a comma which allows the next phrases to make clear what the context of that phrase is actually saying. Why do you want to put a period after the phrase when the Bible puts a comma? 1. No Bible author put a period or a comma anywhere - that all was done by the traditions of men - centuries after the fact. 2. 1Thess 4 Paul makes it very clear that the saints are asleep in death. "Those" WHO have fallen asleep. 3. John 11 Christ makes it very clear "our FRIEND Lazarus sleeps". in Christ, Bob As has been already pointed out in frequent posts, you are leaving out a whole bunch of evidence. Go back over the posts on this thread to see what else is there that you have conveniently left out. There are legitimately two sides to this issue.
Moderators John317 Posted October 27, 2011 Moderators Posted October 27, 2011 I have told you already what happens after death and that covers the answers to all your questions. Did you read my "Aunt Tilly Principle"? No, I didn't see it. But then I'm really only interested in Bible evidence on the topic of what happens when people die. Is the Aunt Tilly Principle in the Bible? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 John317 please answer these questions. 1. Did you read my "Aunt Tilly Principle"? 2. Have you read all my posts on this thread that deal with the "state of the dead"?
Moderators John317 Posted October 27, 2011 Moderators Posted October 27, 2011 John317 please answer these questions. 1. Did you read my "Aunt Tilly Principle"? No. I answered this on post#488377. Originally Posted By: miz3 2. Have you read all my posts on this thread that deal with the "state of the dead"? No. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 I have told you already what happens after death and that covers the answers to all your questions. Did you read my "Aunt Tilly Principle"? No, I didn't see it. But then I'm really only interested in Bible evidence on the topic of what happens when people die. Is the Aunt Tilly Principle in the Bible? Yes the Aunt Tilly Principle is very much in the Bible. You should study it, because it is very brief.
miz3 Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 John317 please answer these questions. 1. Did you read my "Aunt Tilly Principle"? No. I answered this on post#488377. Originally Posted By: miz3 2. Have you read all my posts on this thread that deal with the "state of the dead"? No. Since you are not aware of what I have posted then you are not really prepared to ask me any questions. This is why your questions are so confusing and so disorganized. I encourage you to go back as I suggested and find out what I really believe and say on the "state of the dead" rather then just blindly asking questions that make no sense.
Ron Lambert Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 miz3, I would think the burden is on you to answer questions, and even repeat yourself as succinctly as you can, rather than demand that people go back and read everything you have said on a subject. Demandingness is one of the spiritual maladies that afflict us all. It is fine to refer back to previous posts. But if, as you say, the Aunt Tilly Principle is very brief, why not repeat yourself? I for one find it beneficial for me to try to restate what I have said before, becuase in finding ways to relate what I have to say as clearly as possible, I often think of new things to bring out, new and better ways to say what I have said before. At least, that has always been my experience.
Lysimachus Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 Miz3, The verses are very clear. No ifs, ands, or whats about it. It is you who is manipulating the texts. You make the Bible a confusing discombobulated mess, which makes it impossible to ascertain what's up, what's down, what's left, or what's right. We stand by the Word of God, and these verses could not be made any plainer. The dead know NOTHING, which means there is no consciousness whatsoever, in the earth or in heaven, or anywhere. There is no need to play semantic jugglery as you have done. You dance between the raindrops instead of accepting a plain thus saith the Lord. Enough said. ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
miz3 Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 Miz3, The verses are very clear. No ifs, ands, or whats about it. It is you who is manipulating the texts. You make the Bible a confusing discombobulated mess, which makes it impossible to ascertain what's up, what's down, what's left, or what's right. We stand by the Word of God, and these verses could not be made any plainer. The dead know NOTHING, which means there is no consciousness whatsoever, in the earth or in heaven, or anywhere. There is no need to play semantic jugglery as you have done. You dance between the raindrops instead of accepting a plain thus saith the Lord. Enough said. I don't agree but you are free to believe as you choose.
Robert Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 Nothing "in us" is naturally righteous.......According to Christ the soul does not die like the body. And fear not them which kill the body, but are NOT able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. A person is killed by another... ...The spirit of that killed person is STILL ALIVE. ...Simply because Christ said it was! Jesus, the creator, said to Adam & Eve that if that disobeyed that they would die. He didn't say, "but your spirit will live on". You are reading too much into Christ's statement! He's saying don't fear the first death, fear no hope of a resurrection (the 2nd death). Don't fear dying, fear no coming back to life.
Robert Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 Nothing "in us" is naturally righteous.......According to Christ the soul does not die like the body. Then the soul is righteous and the body evil? BTW, isn't the soul in us? Matter of fact a soul simply means a living human being.
Robert Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 This is why your questions are so confusing and so disorganized. Miz3, maybe if we all just listen to you instead of our Bibles we all could be enlightened! NOT! That was fun....
Moderators John317 Posted October 27, 2011 Moderators Posted October 27, 2011 I encourage you to go back as I suggested and find out what I really believe and say on the "state of the dead" rather then just blindly asking questions that make no sense. You make it sound as if a person must know what you believe in order to ask any sensible questions. Do you really mean that? If you'd give me the post#, I'd gladly read what you've written. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 27, 2011 Moderators Posted October 27, 2011 ...I don't agree but you are free to believe as you choose. We have to assume that everyone here, including yourself, is trying to understand the Bible's teachings on the subject. It does no one any good to simply believe what they want to believe. We all need to be willing to change our minds when we become convinced the Bible teaches something different from what we have understood or believed before. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 27, 2011 Moderators Posted October 27, 2011 Nothing "in us" is naturally righteous.... ...According to Christ the soul does not die like the body. Matthew 10,28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are NOT able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. A person is killed by another... ...The spirit of that killed person is STILL ALIVE. ...Simply because Christ said it was! You say the spirit is still alive after the person is killed. Where does the Bible teach this? Is the spirit and the soul the same thing? Jesus spoke of the soul in Matt. 10: 28. But you are substituting the word "spirit." Does the spirit continue to live and be conscious and have knowledge after the death of the person? Let me know where the Bible teaches this. The entire person is made up of both body and soul and spirit. But when these are not united in making a living soul [living being], the person is dead. Notice that Jesus doesn't say the soul or the spirit is conscious and alive somewhere while the person is dead. Nowhere does the Bible teach that the soul or spirit are immortal and survive the death of the individual. Genesis says that God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul. Some think that God breathed into man a living soul or an immortal soul, but it doesn't say that. We don't have a soul; rather, we are a soul. Jesus' point in Matt. 10: 28 is that someone can kill my body, but they can't take away the life I have in Christ. Only Christ can do that. Only He has the keys of death and the grave. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Ron Lambert Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 Robert, you said: "Matter of fact a soul simply means a living human being." I agree that is a common usage in the Bible. The question arises concerning what the constituents of the soul must be. Specifically, what is added to the physical body to make it a living soul (or living being)? What is the nature of the "spirit" that God breathed into Adam? We SDAs, on the basis of many Bible mentions of this subject, are convinced that there is no consciousness in death. You cannot think without a brain to think with. Nor can you be aware of the passage of time. But my contention is that we must continue on with this, and recognize that even though there is no consciousness, there is a personal identity associated with the spiritual component of the being who died, and that is what God retains. This has to be more than merely memories, or information files recorded on a celestial hard drive. Because then again, we would have no way of knowing whether the resurrected person is not just a physical copy with duplicate memories, who only THINKS he is the original person. I for one do not want to believe that God would perpetrate a fraud. I believe He can really bring back to life the actual, original person. And the body can be changed, glorified--and still it is the same original person. If we do not accept this, then we can only be at a loss to explain how the Son of God could be placed in Mary's womb. The Bible is very clear in Hebrews 2 that Christ partook of the same human nature we all partake of. He had entirely human DNA. So what did the Holy Spirit place into Mary that made that embryo the Son of God? We have to look at the spiritual component of that embryo. We have to admit that the spiritual component included within it a personal identity, and was more than merely an activating spark. If we speak of death as a sleep, the sleeping of the soul--then there must still be a person who still exists, who is sleeping. Remember, Jesus spoke of God as not being the God of the dead, but of the living, just after He referred to God as "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."
Moderators John317 Posted October 27, 2011 Moderators Posted October 27, 2011 I believe He can really bring back to life the actual, original person. And the body can be changed, glorified--and still it is the same original person. Yes, He can and will. The personal identity is made up of all the experiences and choices that person has made throughout his lifetime. It includes personality, character, memory, mannerisms. Our glorified bodies will be similar in some ways to our earthly body, just as Christ's glorified body was recognizable and similar in certain ways to the body that died on the cross. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Gustave Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 But in that verse, Jesus says that people's bodies will be in hell.
Ron Lambert Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 Yes, John317, God can pour back into us our memories, mannerisms, etc. But that is no more than programming a robot. There has to be something more than just a record of character and personality but an actual essence of character and personality. Otherwise we are just talking about a close copy.
Ron Lambert Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 In order for a person to cease to exist forever, God must forget Him. As long as God remembers a person, or even a sparrow that falls, He can resurrect that actual original being that existed before.
Moderators John317 Posted October 27, 2011 Moderators Posted October 27, 2011 ... an actual essence of character and personality. There won't be any difference between the way God raised up Jesus from the grave and the way He will raise the dead in the resurrection at Christ's second coming. It will be the real person, not a mere copy. We don't know exactly how God does it, but we don't have to. We can ask Him after He's done it. Not sure if we'll completely understand it even then. Fortunately our lack of understanding what God does doesn't keep God from being able to do it. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 27, 2011 Moderators Posted October 27, 2011 You appear not to understand what I said about parsing the Greek of Acts 12: 15. What it proves is that the angel was Peter's angel, not Peter himself. It proves that the correct translation is, "It is his angel." Finally, it shows that autou is "of him," not "himself." This is explained in detail on posts #487572 and #487658 Originally Posted By: Gustave What we are talking about is the "IT" & whatever "IT" was......Wasn't Peter, it was his angel. D.A. Carson Commentary on Matthew Zondervan 1995 The most likely explanation is the one Warfield defends. The angels of the little ones are their spirits after death and they always see the heavenly Father's face. Do not despise these little ones, Jesus says, for their destiny is the unshielded glory of the Father's presence. The present tense (they always see raises no difficulty because Jesus is dealing with a class, not individuals. The same interpretation admirably suits Acts 12:15: what the assembled group thinks is standing outside is Peter's spirit (angel), which accounts for Rhoda's recognition of his voice. All this shows is that Carson thinks the people in Acts 12: 15 thought it was Peter's spirit. You said earlier that Carson agrees with you about the significance of the pronoun, "autou." But evidently, according to your quote here, Carson actually says nothing about this. My question is, what does the pronoun "autou" refer to? You said it means "himself," or Peter. But that is impossible. It literally says, "It is the angel of him." "autou" is Genitive [possessive] and refers to something that belongs to someone else. Based on what you said in your earlier post, it appears that you believed the Greek word in Acts 12: 15 is "autos." "autos" is "self" or "himself," whereas "autou" is "of him." That distinction makes a world of difference. The point of all this is, that the Greek construction doesn't allow for the angel to be Peter himself. That is not what the people were saying. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Gustave Posted October 28, 2011 Posted October 28, 2011 You say the spirit is still alive after the person is killed. Where does the Bible teach this?
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