Did Christ Die the Second Death

[BobRyan]

Nothing "in us" is naturally righteous....

...According to Christ the soul does not die like the body.

Matthew 10,28

And fear not them which kill the body, but are NOT able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

A person is killed by another...

...The spirit of that killed person is STILL ALIVE.

...Simply because Christ said it was!

Is your "body" conscious when it's alive Robert?

...Or is it in a state of perpetual unconsciousness?

Our FRIEND Lazarus "sleeps" -- John 11.

The soul that is in a state of sleep is not dead - neither is it conscious or aware of things in heaven or on earth.

Hence Christ affirms the Sadducee point that "God is NOT the God of the dead" in Matt 22. Christ argues in Matt 22 that the only way for God to BE the "God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob" after they have died - is that there MUST be a future resurrection - since "God is not the God of the dead".

The problem with your theology therefore - remains.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Yes, John317, God can pour back into us our memories, mannerisms, etc. But that is no more than programming a robot. There has to be something more than just a record of character and personality but an actual essence of character and personality. Otherwise we are just talking about a close copy.

True. Hence the statement of Christ in Matt 28 showing that the soul survives the first death - but no the second death.

And hence the statement in Eccl 12 that the soul Goes to God who made it - at Death.

And hence the statement of Stephen AND of Christ "into Thy hands I commend my spirit"

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

1. There is no indication in the Bible that the "unique personality" when it returns to God is unconscious either. We do not know what happens to this "unique personality" that God breathed into each one of us when it returns to God who gave it.

2. You are making the same mistake Lysimachus made by putting a period after that phrase when the Bible puts a comma which allows the next phrases to make clear what the context of that phrase is actually saying.

Why do you want to put a period after the phrase when the Bible puts a comma?

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Nothing "in us" is naturally righteous....

...According to Christ the soul does not die like the body.

Matthew 10,28

And fear not them which kill the body, but are NOT able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

A person is killed by another...

...The spirit of that killed person is STILL ALIVE.

...Simply because Christ said it was!

Is your "body" conscious when it's alive Robert?

...Or is it in a state of perpetual unconsciousness?

Our FRIEND Lazarus "sleeps" -- John 11.

The soul that is in a state of sleep is not dead - neither is it conscious or aware of things in heaven or on earth.

Hence Christ affirms the Sadducee point that "God is NOT the God of the dead" in Matt 22. Christ argues in Matt 22 that the only way for God to BE the "God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob" after they have died - is that there MUST be a future resurrection - since "God is not the God of the dead".

The problem with your theology therefore - remains.

in Christ,

Bob

Other ancient cultures aside from Judaism called their dead "sleeping"....

...And I can assure you what they meant by that is not what you do.

So Bob, when you are "sleeping" do you ever dream?

[BobRyan]

"The living know that they will die - but the dead know not anything".

There is no Bible doctrine about "dreaming while you are dead".

Nor do we find in Matt 10:28 "in this life they kill the body and the soul has dreams".

Christ said that "God is not the God of the dead" in order to "prove the resurrection" of the dead MUST happen.

There is only one way that such an argument works as proof for resurrection of the dead.

And that spells the dead-end of the classic "living dead" idea.

in Christ,

Bob

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

...I don't agree but you are free to believe as you choose.

We have to assume that everyone here, including yourself, is trying to understand the Bible's teachings on the subject. It does no one any good to simply believe what they want to believe. We all need to be willing to change our minds when we become convinced the Bible teaches something different from what we have understood or believed before.

Don't hold your breath.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Ron Lambert

... an actual essence of character and personality.

There won't be any difference between the way God raised up Jesus from the grave and the way He will raise the dead in the resurrection at Christ's second coming.

It will be the real person, not a mere copy.

We don't know exactly how God does it, but we don't have to. We can ask Him after He's done it. Not sure if we'll completely understand it even then. Fortunately our lack of understanding what God does doesn't keep God from being able to do it.

Like I told Robert, the only difference between us is WHEN THE RESURRECTION TAKES PLACE.

The two options are:

1. God raises the Righteous like He did Moses shortly after death and they are in Heaven with Him.

2. God raises all the Righteous simultaneously at some general resurrection at the Second Coming.

I am saying that the Bible does give us reason to believe that number one is what happens.

Is such a view a "lock"? NO!

However, neither is number two a lock either.

When you boil it all down we really do not know definitively what actually happens after death.

However again, we do know with certainty some things:

1. That Aunt Tilly will not come back to us from the dead and communicate with us in any way, shape or form.

2. Aunt Tilly will not have anything to do with anything that happens on this planet again.

3. Aunt Tilly will not know or be aware of anything that is happening "under the sun", that is our planet Earth.

4. Aunt Tilly is completely and totally done with anything and everything about Planet Earth.

5. Aunt Tilly will be reunited with earthly humans again only at the Second Coming.

Thus, no hocus pocus, mumbo jumbo spiritualism is possible in any way, shape, or form.

Is Aunt Tilly "in soul-sleep" or is Aunt Tilly alive and well like Moses in Heaven?

The Bible does not solve these two conjectures. The Bible gives us evidence to believe that something about Aunt Tilly never dies but we don't actually know what precisely.

[miz3]

"The living know that they will die - but the dead know not anything".

There is no Bible doctrine about "dreaming while you are dead".

Nor do we find in Matt 10:28 "in this life they kill the body and the soul has dreams".

Christ said that "God is not the God of the dead" in order to "prove the resurrection" of the dead MUST happen.

There is only one way that such an argument works as proof for resurrection of the dead.

And that spells the dead-end of the classic "living dead" idea.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob Ryan you are taking the Ecclesiastes chapter nine phrase out of its context. If left alone as you have made it above it gives a completely wrong impression. When that phrase is put in its proper context the meaning is completely the opposite of what you are trying to erroneously make it say.

Ecclesiastes chapter is say only that the dead do not know anything that is happening on the earth, or "under the sun" ever again.

It is not saying that the dead actually "know nothing at all". Ecclesiastes chapter nine is a qualified or limited "ignorance" NOT A GENERAL IGNORANCE. Their ignorance is limited in regard to this earth. See the Aunt Tilly Principle just one post back.

Why do you want to change the Word of God by making it say something it does not say?

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Ron Lambert

Yes, John317, God can pour back into us our memories, mannerisms, etc. But that is no more than programming a robot. There has to be something more than just a record of character and personality but an actual essence of character and personality. Otherwise we are just talking about a close copy.

True. Hence the statement of Christ in Matt 28 showing that the soul survives the first death - but no the second death.

And hence the statement in Eccl 12 that the soul Goes to God who made it - at Death.

And hence the statement of Stephen AND of Christ "into Thy hands I commend my spirit"

in Christ,

Bob

Why would the unconscious spirits of just men made perfect be at a general assembly in heaven?

...And why would the Apostle caution Christians on earth that they were coming before them.

...If in fact, as you say, the spirits of those just men are all knocked out?

[John317]

Why would the unconscious spirits of just men made perfect be at a general assembly in heaven?

...And why would the Apostle caution Christians on earth that they were coming before them.

...If in fact, as you say, the spirits of those just men are all knocked out?

Gustave, do you see any similarities between the following verses? Read carefully:

Genesis 4:10

And the Lord said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to me from the ground."

Rev. 6:9-11

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. [10] They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" [11] Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Hebrews 12:22-24

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, [23] and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, [24] and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

[John317]

.... we do know with certainty some things:

1. That Aunt Tilly will not come back to us from the dead and communicate with us in any way, shape or form.

2. Aunt Tilly will not have anything to do with anything that happens on this planet again.

3. Aunt Tilly will not know or be aware of anything that is happening "under the sun", that is our planet Earth.

4. Aunt Tilly is completely and totally done with anything and everything about Planet Earth.

5. Aunt Tilly will be reunited with earthly humans again only at the Second Coming.

Thus, no hocus pocus, mumbo jumbo spiritualism is possible in any way, shape, or form.

We're in agreement with these.

However, if people believe the dead aren't really dead but are alive and have great knowledge, they will accept the notion that the dead can return and communicate with the living. They will also pray to the dead saints. The belief that the dead are actually alive is at the basis of much Roman Catholic theology and practice.

It is also the basis of spiritism and spiritualism, including contact with souls of the dead, which is actually contact with demons. One of the most famous in recent times has been the messages from Mary and messages from Our Lady of Guadelupe. Many millions of Mexicans pray to her every day.

You could tell people all day long that the dead don't return, but as long as they believe the dead are alive, they will be open to communication with them.

So while your Aunt Tilly illustrations are right, they don't go far enough. God has not left us in the dark as to what happens when we die.

[Robert]

Is Aunt Tilly "in soul-sleep" or is Aunt Tilly alive and well like Moses in Heaven?

Very few have been resurrected. Clearly the majority will be resurrected at the 2nd coming. Point is, though, they are dead! Nothing lives on.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

.... we do know with certainty some things:

1. That Aunt Tilly will not come back to us from the dead and communicate with us in any way, shape or form.

2. Aunt Tilly will not have anything to do with anything that happens on this planet again.

3. Aunt Tilly will not know or be aware of anything that is happening "under the sun", that is our planet Earth.

4. Aunt Tilly is completely and totally done with anything and everything about Planet Earth.

5. Aunt Tilly will be reunited with earthly humans again only at the Second Coming.

Thus, no hocus pocus, mumbo jumbo spiritualism is possible in any way, shape, or form.

We're in agreement with these.

However, if people believe the dead aren't really dead but are alive and have great knowledge, they will accept the notion that the dead can return and communicate with the living. They will also pray to the dead saints. The belief that the dead are actually alive is at the basis of much Roman Catholic theology and practice.

It is also the basis of spiritism and spiritualism, including contact with souls of the dead, which is actually contact with demons. One of the most famous in recent times has been. the messages from Mary and messages from Our Lady of Guadelupe. Many millions of Mexicans pray to her every day.

So while your Aunt Tilly illustrations are right, they don't go far enough. God has not left us in the dark as to what happens when we die.

You are assuming things will be as you say. However, even if this is true they will clearly be believing in a false thing something they have already done since Adam sinned.

You can discount something simply because people will abuse the truth. You cannot say the FACT does not go far enough so we need to "make something up" so they won't go farther. The fact is they have already gone farther even with attempt to lock them out with your "soul-sleep" argument which is not a "lock truth".

Thus, it is not a correct argument to criticize my position simply because it does not go far enough when even you "so-called far enough" position does not do the trick.

You have too do better than that.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Is Aunt Tilly "in soul-sleep" or is Aunt Tilly alive and well like Moses in Heaven?

Very few have been resurrected. Clearly the majority will be resurrected at the 2nd coming. Point is, though, they are dead! Nothing lives on.

Simply your theory. The Bible has plenty of texts that say some things different than what you assert.

[Lysimachus]

Pastor Stephen Bohr has some outstanding sermons on the State of the Dead. Sadly, rarely do anti-SDA's ever take out time to listen to this stuff.

Souls Under the Altar - by Stephen Bohr

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LVHrn2SDAM (Part 1). -- you can find Parts 2-6 on the right-hand pane.

Best exegetical sermon I've ever heard on this subject.

You can also watch his one on The Rich Man and Lazarus here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWtZci5jQ-w (Part 1) -- you can find Parts 2-6 on the right-hand pane.

[John317]

You cannot say the FACT does not go far enough so we need to "make something up" so they won't go farther. The fact is they have already gone farther even with attempt to lock them out with your "soul-sleep" argument which is not a "lock truth".

Thus, it is not a correct argument to criticize my position simply because it does not go far enough when even you "so-called far enough" position does not do the trick.

You have too do better than that.

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm saying that the Bible teaches that the dead know nothing. God has revealed this to us for a good reason: it protects us against the lies of the devil. If Satan comes deceptively, as he did to Eve, he has great advantage. That's exactly what he did in the Garden and how he introduced his lies to her.

We need to accept God's warnings and teach the truth about it, not give Satan an open door.

When it says the dead know nothing, it means the dead know no-thing. They don't know anything at all.

[Lysimachus]

Miz3,

Why is everything you believe so "muddied"? It's like you don't have any established doctrine in your life. Everything is "ambiguous"...it could be this way, or it could be that way. Why?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

You cannot say the FACT does not go far enough so we need to "make something up" so they won't go farther. The fact is they have already gone farther even with attempt to lock them out with your "soul-sleep" argument which is not a "lock truth".

Thus, it is not a correct argument to criticize my position simply because it does not go far enough when even you "so-called far enough" position does not do the trick.

You have too do better than that.

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm saying that the Bible teaches that the dead know nothing. God has revealed this to us for a good reason: it protects us against the lies of the devil. If Satan comes deceptively, as he did to Eve, he has great advantage. That's exactly what he did in the Garden and how he introduced his lies to her.

We need to accept God's warnings and teach the truth about it, not give Satan an open door.

When it says the dead know nothing, it means the dead know no-thing. They don't know anything at all.

The Bible does NOT SAY the dead "know nothing".

It says something very different. It says the dead "know nothing about anything on this earth". It does not say the dead "know nothing" period.

You are putting your spin on the text when the text in Ecclesiastes says something very different. Your refusal to accept context does not make your view correct.

[miz3]

Miz3,

Why is everything you believe so "muddied"? It's like you don't have any established doctrine in your life. Everything is "ambiguous"...it could be this way, or it could be that way. Why?

Not so. You are not reading correctly everything I have ever written on this forum. Have you read the more than three thousand posts I have made on this forum?

If you had read them all then you would know that what you are saying is emphatically NOT TRUE.

[Ron Lambert]

Aunt Tilly will be reunited with earthly humans at the Second Coming only if she is in the First Resurrection (the "Resurrection of Life"--cf. John 5:29).

[miz3]

Aunt Tilly will be reunited with earthly humans at the Second Coming only if she is in the First Resurrection (the "Resurrection of Life"--cf. John 5:29).

Are you asserting that everyone who has ever lived on the earth will be raised at the Second Coming? See John 5:28-29.

[John317]

Are you sure the writer intends for us to believe that the spirits of just men are literally in heaven?

Originally Posted By: Gustave

100% certain as he was addressing people alive "on earth"....

...And telling them when they came together for Liturgy.

...They were coming before a General assembly in "heaven".

...100% certain.

We're discussing Hebrews 12: 22, 23.

Those verses can't be talking about righteous people who have died, because 11: 39-40 explains that they "did not receive the promise" nor have they been made "perfect."

Hebrews 11:39-40

And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, [40] since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

NOTE: WE will all be made perfect together. That is, we will all go to be with the Lord at the same time, at the second coming of Christ. See 1 Thess. 4: 13-18.

Jesus taught the same thing in Matt. 24: 30, 31; Rev. 14: 13-16.

[BobRyan]

Like I told Robert, the only difference between us is WHEN THE RESURRECTION TAKES PLACE.

The two options are:

1. God raises the Righteous like He did Moses shortly after death and they are in Heaven with Him.

2. God raises all the Righteous simultaneously at some general resurrection at the Second Coming.

The Bible says that "The FIRST resurrection" takes place at the Rev 19 second coming of Christ. Read Rev 20:1-5.

That is the "easy part".

It says it again in 1Thess 4 - that this happens at the appearing of Christ - future to the time of Paul.

It says it again in John 5 -

In says it again in 1Cor 15 - "At His Coming"...

All future to the NT times.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Yes, John317, God can pour back into us our memories, mannerisms, etc. But that is no more than programming a robot. There has to be something more than just a record of character and personality but an actual essence of character and personality. Otherwise we are just talking about a close copy.

[BobRyan]

So far you guys have only offered fluff on this topic. Is there no serious opposition??