Did Christ Die the Second Death

[Lysimachus]

Apparently that "breath" that goes back to God which is basically your "unique personhood" never dies because God at some point must put that same "unique personhood" back into a new body that is not corruptible. This entity does not sleep nor does it die. It is with God who gave it in the first place. That "unique personhood" does not die it is still alive and with God. It cannot die and be with God.

Again, I tell you the basic debate between us is when does that "breath" or "unique personhood" become connected again to a "body".

I agree with this to a great extent, so long as one does not entertain the thought that this "unique personhood" (or character) possesses an independent consciousness or self-existence outside the body after death.

However, after the Great White Throne Judgement, I believe the "personhood" or "characters" of all the wicked will be completely eradicated after the Second Death. There will be no memory of them.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Apparently that "breath" that goes back to God which is basically your "unique personhood" never dies because God at some point must put that same "unique personhood" back into a new body that is not corruptible. This entity does not sleep nor does it die. It is with God who gave it in the first place. That "unique personhood" does not die it is still alive and with God. It cannot die and be with God.

Again, I tell you the basic debate between us is when does that "breath" or "unique personhood" become connected again to a "body".

I agree with this to a great extent, so long as one does not entertain the thought that this "unique personhood" (or character) possesses an independent consciousness or self-existence outside the body after death.

However, after the Great White Throne Judgement, I believe the "personhood" or "characters" of all the wicked will be completely eradicated after the Second Death. There will be no memory of them.

It is clear there is so much we humans here on earth do not know about what happens at death or what happens after death. We do not know whether such a "breath" or "unique personhood" has consciousness or whatever outside the body. The Bible does not say one way or the other. It simply says that it goes back to God from where it came. Other than that singular FACT we do not know anything else about it such as whether it has a consciousness or not, etc. Whether it can exist apart from the body or not, etc.

What is also not thoroughly clear is when the "unique personhood" of the Righteous gets united again with a "righteous body" like that of Jesus Christ. Does it happen shortly after "death, sleep" (the first kind) or does it happen at a mass group resurrection at the Second Coming?

I think a case can be made that it does happen shortly after the "death, sleep" (the first kind) in the Bible. However, the truth is humans cannot prove one way or the other.

Thus, in actual FACT humans do not know exactly what happens "after death" (the first kind). We can only surmise and conjecture.

Some things we do know about this "first kind of death".

1. Aunt Tilly is not going to communicate with us after she dies. She will have nothing more to do with anything that "happens under the sun".

2. We humans cannot summon up the "spirits" or "unique personhood" of those who have died.

3. If we humans honor or hate those who have died they will not be aware of what we think about them after they die. They will not be aware of anything that goes on, on this planet nor will they have anything to do with what goes on, on this planet.

4. In other words, any connection we had with those who have died is completely broken and will not ever be reconnected while we live on this earth before the Second Coming.

5. We know that the dead in Christ and the Living in Christ will be united again at the Second Coming. However, where the dead have actually been until this time no one really knows. We have some hints but God has not given us a lock truth on the matter.

Other than these five items we really do not know diddly squat about what really happens and when after death.

I agree with you concerning the wicked who will burn in Hell. There will be a complete eradication of everything about them as if they never existed at all. Everything about them will die in Hell and never be again. Nada, zilch!

[Robert]

I still find no evidence for a "general mass resurrection" as you assert and that is the very point of the matter.

Then I can't help...it's very plain!

[Robert]

Maybe the Resurrection is a "metaphor" and when the "breath" also a metaphor that goes back to God that is the "resurrection" the Bible is talking about.

No, the resurrection is not a metaphor. Your breath going back to God is.....

[Robert]

In Eccl there was no future Resurrection....

...Once you were dead it was game over, done for good.

Right, the old you...your old, sinful life from Adam will never come up. When God calls the new you up you will be like the angels.

[Robert]

It is clear there is so much we humans here on earth do not know about what happens at death or what happens after death. We do not know whether such a "breath" or "unique personhood" has consciousness or whatever outside the body.

Then you, Miz3, will be deceived.

"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten."

Again, if something lives on after your death then something in you is Holy as God is Holy. Which is it?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Maybe the Resurrection is a "metaphor" and when the "breath" also a metaphor that goes back to God that is the "resurrection" the Bible is talking about.

No, the resurrection is not a metaphor. Your breath going back to God is.....

Just your opinion. No FACT in your assertion.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

It is clear there is so much we humans here on earth do not know about what happens at death or what happens after death. We do not know whether such a "breath" or "unique personhood" has consciousness or whatever outside the body.

Then you, Miz3, will be deceived.

"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten."

Again, if something lives on after your death then something in you is Holy as God is Holy. Which is it?

This text is saying that the dead know nothing about what is going on, on this earth.

It is not a general know nothing. Look at the context. You cannot generalize this very specific text on the relationship of the dead to those who still live on this earth.

Where in the Bible does it say that our "unique personhood" that returns to God is not conscious?

[Robert]

Just your opinion. No FACT in your assertion.

And your opinion of my opinion is just an opinion.

[Robert]

[bible]"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten."

This text is saying that the dead know nothing about what is going on, on this earth.

[Robert]

John 11:14 Jesus: "Lazarus is dead"....41 Then Jesus looked up and said, "Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me." 43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face. Jesus said to them, "Take off the grave clothes and let him go."

Notice that Jesus didn't call forth some "unique personhood" from heaven! He simply restored Lazarus' life.

[Lysimachus]

Miz3, the Bible is very very plain that there is no consciousness outside of death.

You are making it as though the Bible does not reveal these secrets, when it does.

We have 157 verses from the Bible which use the Hebrew and Greek words for "soul" and "spirit" in ways that do not harmonize with the common concept of death. What is the Soul and Spirit? Notice:

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm

Also, is Immortality Conditional or Innate? We have 265 verses from 158 chapters from 35 books of the Bible that indicate that immortality is indeed conditional:

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/immortality.htm

Also, Ecclesiastes 3:19 teaches us that men have no preeminence above a beast, and that both turn to dust. Were man's spirit or soul to have self-conscious existence outside the body after death, then man would have preeminence over a beast.

To believe that the Bible does not reveal such secrets is playing right into the hands of Rome for the wonder working miracles in the last days. To not be absolutely set on this matter runs a risk for disaster. It is the door to spiritualism.

The Spirit of Prophecy is very clear on these matters, and the Lord showed her WHAT these verses mean (since erring humans cannot always make heads or tails out of every verse, but that's why the Lord sends us a prophet so that we can decipher what man cannot). And that is, that there is NO consciousness outside the human body after death.

Period.

Do not play with fire Miz3. You're on dangerous ground. Perilous ground.

[Robert]

To believe that the Bible does not reveal such secrets is playing right into the hands of Rome for the wonder working miracles in the last days. To not be absolutely set on this matter runs a risk for disaster.

Bingo!

[Lysimachus]

This text is saying that the dead know nothing about what is going on, on this earth.

It is not a general know nothing. Look at the context. You cannot generalize this very specific text on the relationship of the dead to those who still live on this earth.

Where in the Bible does it say that our "unique personhood" that returns to God is not conscious?

This is what I call a classic case of sheer manipulation. Ecclesiastes 9:5 is plain to the person with a receptive heart, with no predilections whatsoever. That verse does not say ANYTHING about the forgotten memory only being a memory that is forgotten on the earth. It says they don't know ANYTHING period!

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. "

[Robert]

2 Cor 11:3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning ("you shall not die"), your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. ....14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

[Lysimachus]

I should add that Ecclesiastes is not talking about the person's dead body either. It does not say "their dead body knows nothing". It simply says "THEY" don't know anything. Meaning, the personhood. The person.

[ClubV12]

This really isn't complicated. They die, food for worms, their thoughts perish, the body disintegrates. The only thing that remains is a record of their deeds during life, recorded in the books of heaven. They WILL rise again, some to ever lasting life, some to eternal destruction.

Spark, spirit, etc. etc. just so much mumbo jumbo.

For an elite group, such as Moses and some others, theres a slightly different scenario, but very very rare compared to the rest of us mortals.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Where in the Bible does it say that our "unique personhood" that returns to God is not conscious?

Why don't you make up your own Bible? Maybe then you would be happy, but for us who do not wish to be deceived we will stick with what God's word states.

Well what does the Word of God, the Bible, say about this?

Where in the Bible does it say that our "unique personhoood" that returns to God is not conscious? You are dodging the question.

[miz3]

Miz3, the Bible is very very plain that there is no consciousness outside of death.

You are making it as though the Bible does not reveal these secrets, when it does.

We have 157 verses from the Bible which use the Hebrew and Greek words for "soul" and "spirit" in ways that do not harmonize with the common concept of death. What is the Soul and Spirit? Notice:

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm

Also, is Immortality Conditional or Innate? We have 265 verses from 158 chapters from 35 books of the Bible that indicate that immortality is indeed conditional:

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/immortality.htm

Also, Ecclesiastes 3:19 teaches us that men have no preeminence above a beast, and that both turn to dust. Were man's spirit or soul to have self-conscious existence outside the body after death, then man would have preeminence over a beast.

To believe that the Bible does not reveal such secrets is playing right into the hands of Rome for the wonder working miracles in the last days. To not be absolutely set on this matter runs a risk for disaster. It is the door to spiritualism.

The Spirit of Prophecy is very clear on these matters, and the Lord showed her WHAT these verses mean (since erring humans cannot always make heads or tails out of every verse, but that's why the Lord sends us a prophet so that we can decipher what man cannot). And that is, that there is NO consciousness outside the human body after death.

Period.

Do not play with fire Miz3. You're on dangerous ground. Perilous ground.

You did not read my post where I closed the door tightly to any spiritualism mumbo jumbo. I call it the Aunt Tilly Principle.

The Bible does not say anything about the state of our "unique personality" that returns to God when the "unique personality does return to God.

Second humans have preeminence over the beast. Jesus Christ for instance did not come to die specifically for the beasts but He did come to die specifically for me and for you. I'd say that gives you and me preeminence over the beasts.

You and I do not know with any kind of certainty whatsoever whether there is or is not consciousness of the "unique personality" when it returns to God.

[John317]

In Eccl there was no future Resurrection....

...Once you were dead it was game over, done for good.

What Solomon says is that once you are dead, you don't know anything and you don't return to the earth or know what's going on here. He doesn't say that there's no resurrection or judgment. On, the contrary, Solomon wrote the following:

Eccles. 12:13-14

The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. [14] For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

This text is saying that the dead know nothing about what is going on, on this earth.

It is not a general know nothing. Look at the context. You cannot generalize this very specific text on the relationship of the dead to those who still live on this earth.

Where in the Bible does it say that our "unique personhood" that returns to God is not conscious?

This is what I call a classic case of sheer manipulation. Ecclesiastes 9:5 is plain to the person with a receptive heart, with no predilections whatsoever. That verse does not say ANYTHING about the forgotten memory only being a memory that is forgotten on the earth. It says they don't know ANYTHING period!

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. "

I believe it is you that is manipulating the text. It is clear from the text that it is talking only about the "dead" having nothing to do or know about what is going on, on the earth. There is no general lack of knowledge being stated here.

You want to put a period mark where there is in fact a comma mark. The comma mark allows the writer of this passage to qualify what he said in the previous phrase. You are manipulating things when you "put a period" in the text when there is a comma and you manipulate the text when you refuse to accept the qualifier the writer gives after the phrase you cherish. The qualifier makes it clear that we are talking only in regard to dead and their relationship to the earth. It says nothing about the dead and their relationship to what is going on in Heaven.

So it is not I but you who manipulate the Scripture to suit yourself.

[John317]

What are ECF's? I don't like to use initials unless everyone is clear about their meaning.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Early Church Fathers.

ECF aren't doctrinal authorities. The only doctrinal authority is the Bible.

I read the ECF in order to know what a particular person taught or believed, or what they said about the church, or to see what the Scripture said which they quote, but that's it.

[miz3]

2 Cor 11:3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning ("you shall not die"), your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. ....14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

This is classic 101 manipulation and preconceived ideas inserted in the Bible the Word of God.

This text does not say that the "serpent's cunning" is directly or indirectly referring to the phrase, "you shall not die". Such an insertion is your preconceived notion.

Maybe the "serpent's cunning" more aptly applies to the fact that "God is keeping things from you" or "that you will become like gods and know what God knows". These are points that just as easily could be inserted here as well.

[Words here deleted by the moderator. Don't judge people's motives.] Paul no where in the context of this passage in 2Corinthians chapter eleven states that he, Paul, was referring to the state of the dead.

[Words here deleted by the moderator. Don't judge poster's motives.]

[John317]

It is clear from the text that it is talking only about the "dead" having nothing to do or know about what is going on, on the earth. There is no general lack of knowledge being stated here.

You want to put a period mark where there is in fact a comma mark. The comma mark allows the writer of this passage to qualify what he said in the previous phrase.... The qualifier makes it clear that we are talking only in regard to dead and their relationship to the earth. It says nothing about the dead and their relationship to what is going on in Heaven.

Quote:

KJV--Eccles. 9:5-9--

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. [6] Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

....[9]-- Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.

The Bible is very clear that the dead do not praise the Lord but only the living praise the Lord.

What do you believe the Bible teaches God put in man which survives death and is able to think and see? Do you believe people have immortal spirits or souls?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

It is clear from the text that it is talking only about the "dead" having nothing to do or know about what is going on, on the earth. There is no general lack of knowledge being stated here.

You want to put a period mark where there is in fact a comma mark. The comma mark allows the writer of this passage to qualify what he said in the previous phrase.... The qualifier makes it clear that we are talking only in regard to dead and their relationship to the earth. It says nothing about the dead and their relationship to what is going on in Heaven.

Quote:

KJV--Eccles. 9:5-9--

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. [6] Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

....[9]-- Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.

The Bible is very clear that the dead do not praise the Lord but only the living praise the Lord.

What do you believe the Bible teaches God put in man which survives death and is able to think and see? Do you believe people have immortal spirits or souls?

John317 I know you are busy and maybe did not read all that I have written here but if you will go back a few pages you can see what I have said and that pretty much sums up what I think.

In short read from say page thirty-two to the present. If you want to get a much fuller sense of the argument then read from say the mid-twenties to this present page.

That should give you a good picture of my thoughts rather than my wasting space by repeating everything again.