Prophets and Queens

[cardw]

In the course of dialog around Ellen White's personal testimony I decided to write a blog outlining its influence on my early development. It's a little long and if you get through it I applaud your persistence.

Here's the link

Blog titled Prophets and Queens

[skyblue888]

Richard, you totally misunderstood her experience. Yours is merely the opinion of a man who has lost his spiritual bearings. You forget that when Ellen was going through this ordeal the churches were still wrapped in midnight darkness. She had to find her way through a maze of false doctrines. And why should you despise suffering as a means to find God? Even Jesus learned obedience through suffering according to the Scripture. You claim to be free of guilt. I say rather that it is to appease your guilt that you try to convince yourself that Ellen White was a fake because you have felt condemned by her writings.

I pity you Richard. Your zeal is worthy of a better cause.

You don't know anything about despair. I was introduced to the writings of the Ellen White at a time in my life I was experiencing despair that I would ever find answers to the questions that haunted me day and night.

I had read extensively before I was providentially led to her writings. I can now say that her writings magnified the Word of God to me and made it honorable.

I will make this prediction: The more you attack her writings the more they will shine.

It is hard to kick against the pricks.

laval

[cardw]

Richard, you totally misunderstood her experience. Yours is merely the opinion of a man who has lost his spiritual bearings.

[ClubV12]

If you knew as much about this subject matter as you seem to imply you would know that neither James nor Ellen White supported or promoted any date setting for the 2nd coming beyond 1844.

To say that James White supported or promoted such a view (date setting) is in fact supporting and promoting a lie. He did no such thing.

As it concerns doctrine, it took years for the pioneers to come to an understanding of the important points. They had to leave off all that they had learned from their previous churches and start fresh. For us, today, what it took them YEARS to understand, we can understand in a few months of study.

Adventists beliefs are indeed a tight box. The truths and doctrines can withstand the closest of scrutiny and are supported by the bible and the bible alone.

[John317]

Richard, have you read Arthur White's multivolume biography of Ellen White and Herbert Douglass' book, Ellen G. White Messenger of God?

Speaking of psychological motivations, it is very plain to any observer that you have an axe to grind and have drawn the conclusions you have about Ellen White because of your own personal problems, not because of the evidence itself. If you were being objective, you wouldn't leave out so much of the evidence. Your picture of her is not only incomplete but it's distorted to support the ideas you've created and want to believe.

[cardw]

If you knew as much about this subject matter as you seem to imply you would know that neither James nor Ellen White supported or promoted any date setting for the 2nd coming beyond 1844.

Here is an extensive description of this problem

Failed Prophecies of Ellen White

[ClubV12]

Oh come one, another link among hundreds of such links denigrating Ellen White?

...nothing new here cardw, just the same old tired bashing of the prophet we've seen for a hundred years and more.

For EVERY question, theory, suggestion of "failed prophecies", contradictions and misquotes there are reasonable, logical, well documented answers. Like so many others who take a position of "dis-belief" you will find plenty of hooks to hang your doubts on.

Please, go sell your anti Seventh-day Adventist blog somewhere else. If you have a specific question you would like to address, show a little courage and do that. But quit hiding behind someone else's lame attempt on some web site. Been there, seen enough, not interested in false hoods, lets talk about truth hoods. Put up or shut up.

Since you enjoy links, try this one for answers to your questions. For every web site against Ellen White, there are an equal number supporting her work. Which is why it's ridiculous to post "links". Got a question? Then ASK it!

http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/issues.asp#section2

[John317]

I took a look at your link, Richard, and it's nothing but a rehash of things that have been answered many times before.

I believe that if I were to take the time to reply to each one of those so-called "failed prophecies," they would still continue to be posted as if no answers had been given.

How would you like for people to post attacks against you and your character but never be willing to post your responses? And keep doing it long after you're dead and unable to respond?

An honest thing to do would be to post the questions or allegations and then include the answers given by the Ellen G. White Estate or by other SDAs who accept Ellen White as a genuine prophet.

But would you do this?

Maybe so, but I doubt it.

[cardw]

If you have a specific question you would like to address, show a little courage and do that. But quit hiding behind someone else's lame attempt on some web site. Been there, seen enough, not interested in false hoods, lets talk about truth hoods. Put up or shut up.

[John317]

As moderator:

I won't allow the Adventist Forum to be used as a place to post anti-SDA and anti-EGW propaganda, which is what that link is. If it's a sincere discussion about these questions, that is one thing, but simply to use the Forum to batter and attack the SDA church, the Bible, or Ellen White-- it won't happen here. You will need to go elsewhere to do it.

It is only fair to offer explanations along with the accusations. If not, they will eventually be removed.

[John317]

.... they, including James White, kept setting dates up to 1851 and we know from the Israel Damon Trial that they were telling people to not plant their crops.

Post your strongest evidence for this.

Where did James White or Ellen White write any other date setting after 1844?

[John317]

....

Ok, explain why god hid the figures and told her that the 1843 chart was exactly as god wanted it.

God did something very similar in the Bible.

For instance:

Luke 24:16

But their eyes were kept from recognizing him.

Luke 24:31

And their eyes were opened, and they recognized him. And he vanished from their sight.

Do you recall the disciples believed that Christ would be a conquering Messiah instead of a suffering Messiah, and this despite the fact that Jesus told them over and over again that He would be killed?

Originally Posted By: cardw

.... Jesus' predicted return in 1843 failed!

Yes, of course, but Jesus isn't the One who made the prediction. God never gave anyone a vision in which this prediction was stated or supported.

Human beings made the prediction based upon a mistaken understanding of what the Bible teaches. They thought the earth was the sanctuary that God would come to purify by fire, even though the Bible teaches no such thing.

[John317]

... His predicted return in 1843, confirmed by her vision, didn't occur in 1843, so it was a false prophecy!

The 1843 prediction wasn't confirmed by Ellen White's vision. Her very first vision wasn't given to her until Dec. 1844.

Therefore it is false to say Christ's predicted return in 1843 was confirmed by Ellen White's vision.

It was certainly a false prediciton based on a particular false understanding of the Bible's teaching-- that the earth was the sanctuary in Daniel 8: 14-- but that is altogether different from saying it was a "false prophecy." Ellen White was not a prophet prior to December of 1844.

[John317]

Here is an extensive description of this problem

Failed Prophecies of Ellen White

Be sure to also read the following:

http://www.whiteestate.org/books/mol/Chapt43.html

I'd recommend reading Herbert Douglass' book, Dramatic Prophecies of Ellen G. White:

http://www.amazon.com/Dramatic-Prophecies-Ellen-Herbert-Douglass/dp/0816321922

[ClubV12]

"I've read the apologetics at the White Estate. They tend to ignore the strongest points and only address the weak points."

Do YOU have a question concerning your ALLEGATION of a weak point not addressed to your satisfaction, or not?

If you do, post the question. Your allegation that the weak points are not addressed is just another unsubstantiated attack on the church, without a question!

[John317]

The problem is, though, that once you answer the questions about "problems," there will always be many more. So you could be kept busy for a lifetime answering the objections and not have time for much else. That's why Ellen White said she wouldn't be answering any more objections. She had work to do.

We experience something similar on the Adventist Forum. I've written something like over 25,000 posts, most of which are answering people's objections, but I find that for every answer given, there are 10 more objections that come up from different people who apparently never read the answers already posted or the books/web-sites that contain answers to their objections.

[John317]

...Links help so that I don't have to re-type everything.

That should help you to have sympathy for those who are asked to repeat answers over and over again to the same objections regarding God, the Bible, the church, and Ellen White.

[John317]

Ellen White is making up a reality that doesn't exist. That is why her relief didn't last. That is why she was sick most of her life. She was at odds with reality and couldn't face the truth. I can understand why because she didn't have anything to replace it with.

You don't know these things but they are only conjecture on your part.

It is utter nonsense to think this explains Ellen White's life and writings. It shows an amazing unfamiliarity with the facts of Ellen White's life, character, and personality.

[ClubV12]

"The problem is, though, that once you answer the questions about "problems," there will always be many more."

Well put John, which is why I much prefer to spend my time studying the truth. At first, of course I had many questions regarding doctrine, the status of Ellen White, etc. I did spend considerable time looking at the myriad of web sites with a host of allegations concerning Sister White and the Adventist church in general. The more I studied it, the more CONVINCED I became the doctrines and Sister Whites work were solid. The truths that Adventists hold can indeed bare the closest scrutiny, the toughest questions.

[John317]

... The truths that Adventists hold can indeed bare the closest scrutiny, the toughest questions.

I believe so, too. If I thought otherwise, I wouldn't be a member of the church.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Ellen White is making up a reality that doesn't exist. That is why her relief didn't last. That is why she was sick most of her life. She was at odds with reality and couldn't face the truth. I can understand why because she didn't have anything to replace it with.

You don't know these things but they are only conjecture on your part.

It is utter nonsense to think this explains Ellen White's life and writings. It shows an amazing unfamiliarity with the facts of Ellen White's life, character, and personality.

Your belief that she was a prophet is pure conjecture as well. I'm simply using the same right. Only I think my conjecture is far more likely.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

....

Ok, explain why god hid the figures and told her that the 1843 chart was exactly as god wanted it.

God did something very similar in the Bible.

For instance:

Luke 24:16

But their eyes were kept from recognizing him.

Luke 24:31

And their eyes were opened, and they recognized him. And he vanished from their sight.

Do you recall the disciples believed that Christ would be a conquering Messiah instead of a suffering Messiah, and this despite the fact that Jesus told them over and over again that He would be killed?

[cardw]

How would you like for people to post attacks against you and your character but never be willing to post your responses? And keep doing it long after you're dead and unable to respond?

[cardw]

"I've read the apologetics at the White Estate. They tend to ignore the strongest points and only address the weak points."

Do YOU have a question concerning your ALLEGATION of a weak point not addressed to your satisfaction, or not?

If you do, post the question. Your allegation that the weak points are not addressed is just another unsubstantiated attack on the church, without a question!

OK,

Why did God purposely want the 1883 charts to be wrong?

Don't give me the non-answer that the same thing happened in the Bible.

It still doesn't answer why.

[cardw]

As moderator:

I won't allow the Adventist Forum to be used as a place to post anti-SDA and anti-EGW propaganda, which is what that link is. If it's a sincere discussion about these questions, that is one thing, but simply to use the Forum to batter and attack the SDA church, the Bible, or Ellen White-- it won't happen here. You will need to go elsewhere to do it.

It is only fair to offer explanations along with the accusations. If not, they will eventually be removed.

You are certainly able to moderate as you wish, but I wonder why you don't moderate against atheist propaganda? The forum is full of it. I'm not complaining, but this new found sensitivity seems a little one sided.