Prophets and Queens

[ClubV12]

"Why does it have to be "new"."

Because it is wearisome to answer the same old questions again and again to those who have ZERO intention of learning anything. You have the evidence, it's abundant, you have the answers, they are not hidden.

Frankly, it's not worth the effort and is counter productive to address these issues with anyone who has rejected the prophet with sufficient time and evidence to have made their decision.

WORSE than rejecting the prophet is the position that she "had some good things to say, BUT,,, has no prophetic rule." THAT is specifically what Ellen White warns against, not rejecting her work outright, but making it of no effect. Such a position has "laodecia" written all over it.

[fccool]

Quote:

WORSE than rejecting the prophet is the position that she "had some good things to say, BUT,,, has no prophetic rule."

It appears to me that you think that she would be upset if some atheist out there took her writing on health and though "Hmmm... good call, although I don't believe she is a prophet". That's silly.

The worth of the idea is the pragmatic execution and result. Ellen White is not the only source to healthy living, but if people achieve healthy living by adhering to her principles... all good and positive.

But, if people are running around with every earthquake, and with every time Pope picks up a pen, and screaming "Come Lord Jesus, the end is near"... that's not exactly very mentally stable.

Likewise, making views of Christian eschatology, and observance of Sabbath and 10 Commandments to be the pivotal problem of humanity, and the solution to all "evil", is inconsiderate of certain concepts of "death" and "evil" as they actually exist.

For most of my Christian life, I've actually feared death, because there always the possibility that those instinctual sins will send me on the wrong side of God's fence. I'm over it.

Life is a part of death, and death is a part of life. Life needs death, and death gives way to new life. That's how world seems to work, and it seems to function and revolve around the idea of new beginnings that coming from the old ones. What beyond death, does not concern me at this point. It will be a concern when I die.

Yet, the idea that God, who created this universe and everything in it, and is so concerned that people will work on His Holy day, or that they will not believe in Him... it's a very immature view of God. It paints an insecure, and incomplete God.

If you say that it is for our benefit... then great. I doubt that most people would choose and desire to be sick, uneducated, and ignorant. I don't know a single person that given opportunity to meet God personally, and ask all of the questions in the world... would walk away thinking that

1) God did not exist

2) That God is somehow a maniac that does not care

That does not happen though. And people are lead to humans to tell them what God is like. That's ironic and inappropriate IMO.

I'll believe God, if He indeed exists. Human view of it seems rather contrived, and manufactured... no matter where it is coming from. And if you think that God will fry me for this sin of "disbelief", you have a very shallow view of God, my friend.

[ClubV12]

"WORSE than rejecting the prophet is the position that she "had some good things to say, BUT,,, has no prophetic rule"."

That comment was specifically directed to you fccool, not some atheist who may read her writings and be blessed as a result. It's a comment directed to ALL who have sufficient time and understanding to make a determination as to her status of being a prophet.

Of course some folks need time to weigh the evidence. How much time is enough? I won't put a number on it, but at some point it becomes obvious. How much time have you had, fccool, to weigh the evidence? Do you accept bits and pieces of the bible? Pick and choose what parts are inspired and what parts are not? Determine what you will follow or won't, regardless of the position of your church? Ellen White is either a prophet, or she isn't, she either had visions related to dietary counsel, or she didn't. This is a "pass or fail" issue, not a percentage based score card.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I didn't say she wasn't a nice person. I said she was deluded. I don't have any problem with her as a person. I have a problem with her as a prophet.

I'm not saying she was a nice person. I'm saying everyone who knew her, knew her to be a good Christian woman. That is not the same as being a nice person.

What's your clearest evidence that Ellen G. White was deluded?

She gave every evidence of being very much in touch with reality.

[John317]

This was at the link you posted on the so-called "failed prophecies of Ellen White":

Quote:

While these statements show the SDA church's view of Ellen, when her failed prophecies are brought forward they'll often try to excuse her saying, 'she never claimed to be a prophet'. But, didn't she?

When did the SDA church ever say "Ellen White never claimed to be a prophet" for the reasons stated here?

Quote:

"My work includes much more than this name (prophet) signifies". (Selected Messages vol. I, p.36)

After saying she's even more than a prophet, she contradicts herself , saying why she's never claimed to be one!:

"I know that many have called me a prophet, but I have made no claim to this title…Why have I not claimed to be a prophet?--Because… my work includes much more than the word 'prophet' signifies". (Selected Messages I, 31+32, 1906)

Notice that this doesn't give her complete answer as to why did not make a claim to the title of prophet. Her other reason was that there were many people giving a bad reputation to the title or "prophet."

So the two main reasons Ellen White didn't claim the title of prophet were that (1) people misunderstood the calling of a prophet and were likely to stereotype her; and (2) there were people claiming the title of "prophet" under false pretenses. She had no desire to be associated with such people.

Notice she said she's never "made claim to the title of prophet." She is not denying she is a prophet. She says right there that her work includes much more than the word "prophet" signifies.

To make a claim to the title is nothing. What matters is the fact that God gave her many hundreds of visions and dreams and inspired her by His Spirit to write those messages out for the church. That is the very work of a prophet.

Quote:

SDAs claim her 70 years of prophetic ministry began in 1845, for she died in 1915. Yet in her 'Biographical Information Blank' of Mar 10, 1909, asking "When …did you begin laboring for the cause?" she wrote "In Maine, 1842 …1844-45 began public labor, relating visions, etc."

Her public labor in the cause of God began in 1842. But she also wrote that her first vision was given to her in Dec. 1844.

She wrote the following account of her first public labors:

Quote:

The night after receiving so great a blessing, I attended the advent meeting. When the time came for the followers of Christ to speak in His favor, I could not remain silent, but rose and related my experience. Not a thought had entered my mind of what I should say; but the simple story of Jesus' love to me fell from my lips with perfect freedom, and my heart was so happy to be liberated from its bondage of dark despair that I lost sight of the people about me and seemed to be alone with God. I found no difficulty in expressing my peace and happiness, except for the tears of gratitude that choked my utterance as I told of the wondrous love that Jesus had shown for me. {1T 32.2}

Elder Stockman was present. He had recently seen me in deep despair, and the remarkable change in my appearance and feelings touched his heart; he wept aloud, rejoicing with me and praising God for this proof of His tender mercy and loving-kindness.

33

{1T 32.3}

Not long after receiving this great blessing, I attended a conference meeting at the Christian church, where Elder Brown was pastor. I was invited to relate my experience, and I felt not only great freedom of expression, but happiness, in telling my simple story of the love of Jesus and the joy of being accepted of God. As I spoke, with subdued heart and tearful eyes, my soul seemed drawn toward heaven in thanksgiving. The melting power of the Lord came upon the assembled people. Many were weeping and others praising God. {1T 33.1}

Sinners were invited to arise for prayers, and many responded to the call. My heart was so thankful to God for the blessing He had given me that I longed to have others participate in this sacred joy. My mind was deeply interested for those who might be suffering under a sense of the Lord's displeasure and the burden of sin. While relating my experience, I felt that no one could resist the evidence of God's pardoning love that had wrought so wonderful a change in me. The reality of true conversion seemed so plain to me that I felt like helping my young friends into the light, and at every opportunity exerted my influence toward this end. {1T 33.2}

I arranged meetings with my young friends, some of whom were considerably older than myself, and a few were married persons. A number of them were vain and thoughtless; my experience sounded to them like an idle tale, and they did not heed my entreaties. But I determined that my efforts should never cease till these dear souls, for whom I had so great an interest, yielded to God. Several entire nights were spent by me in earnest prayer for those whom I had sought out and brought together for the purpose of laboring and praying with them. {1T 33.3}

Some of these had met with us from curiosity to hear what I had to say; others thought me beside myself to be so persistent in my efforts, especially when they manifested no concern on their own part. But at every one of our little meetings I continued to exhort and pray for each one separately, until every one had yielded to Jesus, acknowledging the merits of His pardoning love. Every one was converted to God. {1T 33,34}

She wrote the following about her first vision, Dec. 1844:

Quote:

Chapter VII - My First Vision

It was not long after the passing of the time in 1844 that my first vision was given me. I was visiting a dear sister in Christ, whose heart was knit with mine; five of us, all women, were kneeling quietly at the family altar. While we were praying, the power of God came upon me as I had never felt it before. I seemed to be surrounded with light, and to be rising higher and higher from the earth. I turned to look for the advent people in the world, but could not find them, when a voice said to me: "Look again, and look a little higher." At this I raised my eyes and saw a straight and narrow path, cast up high above the world. On this path the advent people were traveling toward the city. Behind them, at the beginning of the path, was a bright light which an angel told me was the midnight cry. This light shone all along the path, that their feet might not stumble. Jesus Himself went just before His people to lead them forward, and as long as they kept their eyes fixed on Him, they were safe. But soon some grew weary, and said the city was a great way off, and they expected to have entered it before. Then Jesus would encourage them by raising His glorious right arm, from which came a light that waved over the advent band; and they shouted: "Alleluia!" Others rashly denied the light behind them, and said it was not God that had led them out so far. The light behind them went out, leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and lost sight of the mark and of Jesus, and fell off the path down into the dark and wicked world below. {1T 58, 59}

[John317]

Again Selected Messages II p.4 says her "first and second messages were given in 1843 + 1844", and in Early Writings she tells "In 1842 I constantly attended the Second Advent meetings in Portland Maine…Wave after wave of glory rolled over me, till my body grew stiff …I remained in this state of body and mind a long time." (p11+12) confirming the 1842 date in SM II.

In 2 SM 4, Ellen White is talking about the first and second angels' messages which were proclaimed by the Millerites. She's not talking about when she began her service as a prophet of God or when she had her visions.

This becomes obvious when her statements are read in their context:

Quote:

The first and second messages [Revelation 14:6-8] were given in 1843 and 1844, and we are now under the proclamation of the third; but all three of the messages are still to be proclaimed. It is just as essential now as ever before that they shall be repeated to those who are seeking for the truth. By pen and voice we are to sound the proclamation, showing their order and the application of the prophecies that bring us to the third angel’s message. There cannot be a third without the first and second. . . . {CTr 338.3}

Quote:

In 1842, I constantly attended the second advent meetings in Portland, Maine, and fully believed that the Lord was coming. I was hungering and thirsting for full salvation, an entire conformity to the will of God. Day and night I was struggling to obtain this priceless treasure, that all the riches of earth could not purchase. As I was bowed before God praying for this blessing, the duty to go and pray in a public prayer meeting was presented before me. I had never prayed vocally in meeting, and drew back from the duty, fearing that if I should attempt to pray I would be confounded. Every time I went before the Lord in secret prayer this unfulfilled duty presented itself, until I ceased to pray, and settled down in a melancholy state, and finally in deep despair.

In this state of mind I remained for three weeks, with not one ray of light to pierce the thick clouds of darkness around me. I then had two dreams which gave me a faint ray of light and hope. [THE DREAMS HERE REFERRED TO WILL BE FOUND ON PAGES 78-81.] After that I opened my mind to my devoted mother. She told me that I was not lost and advised me to go and see Brother Stockman, who then preached to the Advent people in Portland. I had great confidence in him, for he was a devoted and beloved servant of Christ. His words affected me and led me to hope. I returned home and again went before the Lord, and promised that I would do and suffer anything if I could have the smiles of Jesus. The same duty was presented. There was to be a prayer meeting that evening, which I attended, and when others knelt to pray, I bowed with them trembling, and after two or three had prayed, I opened my mouth in prayer before I was aware of it, and the promises of God looked to me like so many precious pearls that were to be received by only asking for them. As I prayed, the burden and agony of soul that I had so long felt left me, and the blessing of God came upon me like the gentle dew. I gave glory to God for what I felt, but I longed for more. I could not be satisfied till I was filled with the fullness of God. Inexpressible love for Jesus filled my soul. Wave after wave of glory rolled over me, until my body grew stiff. Everything was shut out from me but Jesus and glory, and I knew nothing of what was passing around me. {EW 12.1}

I remained in this state of body and mind a long time, and when I realized what was around me, everything seemed changed. Everything looked glorious and new, as if smiling and praising God. I was then willing to confess Jesus everywhere. For six months not a cloud of darkness passed over my mind. My soul was daily drinking rich draughts of salvation. I thought that those who loved Jesus would love His coming, so went to the class meeting and told them what Jesus had done for me and what a fullness I enjoyed through believing that the Lord was coming. The class leader interrupted me, saying, "Through Methodism"; but I could not give the glory to Methodism when it was Christ and the hope of His soon coming that had made me free. {EW 11-13}

[John317]

I feel sorry for you.

Notice what Paul writes in 1 Cor 2: 14

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

God’s ministers should not count the opportunity of engaging in discussion a great privilege. All points of our faith are not to be borne to the front and presented before the prejudiced crowds. Jesus spoke before the Pharisees and Sadducees in parables, hiding the clearness of truth under symbols and figures because they would make a wrong use of the truths He presented before them; but to His disciples He spoke plainly. We should learn from Christ’s method of teaching and be careful not to cut off the ears of the people by presenting truths which, not being fully explained, they are in no way prepared to receive.

Testimonies vol 3, page 425 paragraphs 1, 3

"“Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."Matthew 7:6 NKJV

God Blesses!

[skyblue888]

How true.

sky

[skyblue888]

Consider how Sabbath came to SDA church.

There's a prior history, but we'll skip to a publication of T.M. Preble in a Millerite newspaper about the issue, and posted the several ideas in "The Hope of Israel, Feb. 28, 1845". He concluded his article by writing, "Thus we see Daniel 7:25 fulfilled, the little horn changing times and laws with the result that all who keep the first day of the week for the Sabbath are the Pope's Sunday keepers and God's Sabbath breakers!"

So, we have these ideas are not originating with E.G. White's visions, but they are integrated externally from various channels and perspectives.

There was a captain called Joseph Bates, who picked up the idea as truth and brought it up with both James and Ellen White.

There obviously was a diverging opinions in the Church as to whether Bates was correct to keep the Sabbath beginning at 6 pm. Many thought that it would be kept from Sunrise, some thought that it should be from Sundown-Sundown.

When disputes arose, Ellen came to the rescue with a vision that confirmed that Sabbath keeping was correct from 6 PM. The Bates was vindicated, and the disputes were dismissed.

Arthur White wrote about the events:

"In that vision she was shown that to commence the Sabbath at sunrise was wrong. She then heard an angel repeat these words, 'From even unto even shall ye celebrate your Sabbaths.' Brother Bates was present, and succeeded in satisfying all present that 'even' was six o'clock."

Adventist, including Bates and Whites began keeping Sabbath only to find out years later that they've been doing it wrong. As usual, that revelation did not come from God, but from third party person... J.N. Andrews. Andrews was called to a conference to investigate the matter, and found out that Sabbath was historically kept by Jews from Sundown to Sundown.

Arthur White wrote about that:

"The sunset time was now accepted by nearly all present at the 1855 conference. Joseph Bates and Ellen White were exceptions, both holding to the six o'clock position."

When evidence was finally presented to her, she once again miraculously has a vision that confirms that Andrews is now correct, and not Bates. That must have been awkward for Angel to back out of.

"Yes, I know I've said from even to even nine years prior, but you better now listen to what that guy that disproved what you were saying."

So, obviously she had to somehow justify the previous vision and prevent any further question as to why they've been allowed to keep the Sabbath improperly for 9 years

She writes:

"I inquired why it had been thus, that at this late day we must change the time of commencing the Sabbath. Said the angel, 'Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet.'"

The angel apparently loves to converse in 16th century English

Now thats a new one. Where did u fetch this? What are your references for this?

[cardw]

This was at the link you posted on the so-called "failed prophecies of Ellen White":

Quote:

While these statements show the SDA church's view of Ellen, when her failed prophecies are brought forward they'll often try to excuse her saying, 'she never claimed to be a prophet'. But, didn't she?

When did the SDA church ever say "Ellen White never claimed to be a prophet" for the reasons stated here?

I have heard this argument from a number of Ellen White defenders. And it's true that I haven't heard the SDA church say this. I'm not sure how a church can say anything.

And you are right that this site overstates its case and has interpreted some of the things that Ellen White said incorrectly. If the worst thing Ellen White did was to get the start of her ministry wrong or was vague about it I wouldn't have any problem with her.

But, as usual, you spend all this time on tangents. You have completely avoided her statement about God directly having a hand in making sure the 1843 chart was as it was.(That is with the wrong dates and times) And that is what I was using the site for.

And you have completely ignored fccool's excellent outline of other problems with her claims.

Instead you would rather focus on what is wrong with me personally or these other weak arguments instead of the posts that I am writing or some other non related tangent.

[skyblue888]

What happened in 1843 was not the result of God directly blinding the minds as to the correct dates or intepretations of events taking place. In like manner, God did not directly blind the minds of the disciples of Christ so that they would not be able to understand that prophecy was being fulfilled by the crucifixion of Christ. How many times did Jesus try to prepare them for that event but since from infancy they had been taught a certain way about the coming of the Messiah, they could not appreciate what Jesus was telling them.

The Millerites were mistaken as to what the sanctuary was that needed to be cleansed at the end of the 2,300 prophetic days. They thought the earth was the only possible sanctuary that was going to be cleansed by the coming of Christ and when He did not come at the time expected, they looked for answers and in the process discovered that the prophecy would end on Oct.22, 1844. So their hopes were rekindled but when the time passed they were again disappointed. Simply because they did not understand that the sanctuary to be cleansed was the sanctuary in Heaven. But God had not directly blinded them to that fact any more than God directly hardened Pharaoh's heart.

sky

[fccool]

Quote:

"“Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."Matthew 7:6 NKJV

Works both ways :)

[ClubV12]

fccool says,

"When disputes arose, Ellen came to the rescue with a vision that confirmed that Sabbath keeping was correct from 6 PM. The Bates was vindicated, and the disputes were dismissed."

You've made a pretty serious accusation there fccool. Care to back up your allegation with a source or proof of some kind? It you can't, what you've posted is a lie, shame on you!

Such is the folly you find in websites allegedly "exposing" Ellen White. They are not truthful and have no shame in posting lies. Others pick them up, like parrots, and post them elsewhere. But in no case is there a serious search for truth.

[Stan]

What was expected of EGW? That all of a sudden everything was downloaded into her ram like brain?

[ClubV12]

Let me ABSOLUTELY clear on this ALLEGED "vision" Ellen White is said to have had that 6 to 6 o'clock was the correct Sabbath time.

IT'S A LIE!!! Flat out!!! She never had such a vision, period!!!

Nothing new here... same old arguments, like a pig dressed up with lip stick, it's still a pig.

[fccool]

Quote:

What was expected of EGW? That all of a sudden everything was downloaded into her ram like brain?

Nop, we expected her to copy the wise sayings from a library of authors from a wide variety of denominational walks and beliefs.

Come on, Stan . There's a difference between "God told me and I've written down", and "I've read it somewhere, and it sounded good, so I paraphrased it with "I was shown" in front of it".

[fccool]

Quote:

IT'S A LIE!!! Flat out!!! She never had such a vision, period!!!

ClubV,

Please do a little research before crying "lie"

http://www.whiteestate.org/pathways/jbates.asp

Quote:

The next year, 1846, Bates wrote a tract of his own about the Bible Sabbath. This tract came to the attention of James and Ellen White around the time of their marriage in August of that year. They accepted the seventh-day Sabbath from studying the Bible evidence for it.

In the tract Bates argued for beginning the Sabbath at 6 p.m. Friday, and many Sabbath keepers, including the Whites, did so for nearly ten years. Other Adventists kept it from sunrise, sunset, or midnight. In 1855 James White asked J. N. Andrews to make a study of the Bible on the subject. At a meeting in Battle Creek in November he presented his paper, which supported sunset. After the meeting, Ellen White had a vision confirming the result of his Bible study, and unity on the subject was gained.

Arthur White, Ellen G. White: The Early Years Volume 1 - 1827-1862, p. 199.

Quote:

In that vision (1847) she was shown that to commence the Sabbath at sunrise was wrong. She then heard an angel repeat these words, 'From even unto even shall ye celebrate your Sabbaths.' Brother Bates was present, and succeeded in satisfying all present that 'even' was six o'clock.

I still can't get over the fact that angels speak in old King James English in 18th century It's probably because it's more holy.

[cardw]

Quote:

IT'S A LIE!!! Flat out!!! She never had such a vision, period!!!

ClubV,

Please do a little research before crying "lie"

http://www.whiteestate.org/pathways/jbates.asp

Quote:

The next year, 1846, Bates wrote a tract of his own about the Bible Sabbath. This tract came to the attention of James and Ellen White around the time of their marriage in August of that year. They accepted the seventh-day Sabbath from studying the Bible evidence for it.

In the tract Bates argued for beginning the Sabbath at 6 p.m. Friday, and many Sabbath keepers, including the Whites, did so for nearly ten years. Other Adventists kept it from sunrise, sunset, or midnight. In 1855 James White asked J. N. Andrews to make a study of the Bible on the subject. At a meeting in Battle Creek in November he presented his paper, which supported sunset. After the meeting, Ellen White had a vision confirming the result of his Bible study, and unity on the subject was gained.

Arthur White, Ellen G. White: The Early Years Volume 1 - 1827-1862, p. 199.

Quote:

In that vision (1847) she was shown that to commence the Sabbath at sunrise was wrong. She then heard an angel repeat these words, 'From even unto even shall ye celebrate your Sabbaths.' Brother Bates was present, and succeeded in satisfying all present that 'even' was six o'clock.

ClubV, he's got you here. You asked for evidence and here it is. Are you going to at last admit you are wrong? Probably not.

And what is really the final nail in the coffin is that his source is the White Estate itself, including Arthur White. LOL

[John317]

...

Quote:

The next year, 1846, Bates wrote a tract of his own about the Bible Sabbath. This tract came to the attention of James and Ellen White around the time of their marriage in August of that year. They accepted the seventh-day Sabbath from studying the Bible evidence for it.

In the tract Bates argued for beginning the Sabbath at 6 p.m. Friday, and many Sabbath keepers, including the Whites, did so for nearly ten years. Other Adventists kept it from sunrise, sunset, or midnight. In 1855 James White asked J. N. Andrews to make a study of the Bible on the subject. At a meeting in Battle Creek in November he presented his paper, which supported sunset. After the meeting, Ellen White had a vision confirming the result of his Bible study, and unity on the subject was gained.

Arthur White, Ellen G. White: The Early Years Volume 1 - 1827-1862, p. 199.

"In that vision (1847) she was shown that to commence the Sabbath at sunrise was wrong. She then heard an angel repeat these words, 'From even unto even shall ye celebrate your Sabbaths.' Brother Bates was present, and succeeded in satisfying all present that 'even' was six o'clock."

Why do you have a problem with these statements-- other than the fact that angel used KJV English?

There's nothing there that the church didn't know ever since the events occurred.

God didn't give Ellen White visions to originate doctrinces. The doctrines are based on Bible study, and then God gave Ellen White visions to either confirm it or to instruct them to keep studying. This is what happened at the Sabbath Bible Conferences as well. There's good reason for this: God wants us to put our faith in the Bible and to test everything by it.

Isaiah 8:20

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

[ClubV12]

And the LIE continues. What you BOTH have done here is FAIL to point out ANYTHING Sister White says that means 6 to 6. It's NOT THERE.

In your haste to make something of nothing you have bought into the lie hook line and sinker.

'From even unto even shall ye celebrate your Sabbaths.'

WHO said "even to even" was 6 to 6? Certainly NOT Ellen White! Certainly NOT the bible! Certainly NOT this vision!

[ClubV12]

"I saw that it is even so: "From even unto even, shall ye celebrate your Sabbath." Said the angel: "Take the word of God, read it, understand, and ye cannot err. Read carefully, and ye shall there find what even is, and when it is." I asked the angel if the frown of God had been upon His people for commencing the Sabbath as they had. I was directed back to the first rise of the Sabbath, and followed the people of God up to this time, but did not see that the Lord was displeased, or frowned upon them. I inquired why it had been thus, that at this late day we must change the time of commencing the Sabbath. Said the angel: "Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet." Said the angel: "If light come, and that light is set aside or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes, there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject."

I saw that it was in the minds of some that the Lord had shown that the Sabbath commenced at six o’clock, when I had only seen that it commenced at "even," and it was inferred that even was at six. I saw that the servants of God must draw together, press together.

Testimonies for the Church, Volume 1, 116

She was told to search the bible for the meaning of "even to even", here it is:

"This will be a Sabbath day of complete rest for you, and on that day you must deny yourselves. This day of rest will begin at sundown on the ninth day of the month and extend until sundown on the tenth day." Leviticus 23:32

King James version:

"It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath." Leviticus 23:32

[ClubV12]

Sister White also had a vision of a planet, with I THINK, "seven moons"?

Anyway, BATES, declared that to be Saturn or some well known planet at that time. Sister White NEVER said WHAT planet she was viewing!

Bates was a man to jump to conclusions is the way I see it, as some are doing right here on this very thread! We should reason these things out, not be moving in haste.

[John317]

Yes, God guided the Millerite Movement. There's no question of that.

But that is different from saying that God inspired them to preach falsehoods. Miller and Miller's followers-- as well as many others around the world who didn't have any connection with Miller-- preached that the Lord was coming to the earth in 1843 and then 1844. It was according to God's will, just like it was God's will that the Bible writers teach 2,000 years ago that Christ was coming "soon." It was also God's will that the disciples not understand ahead of time that Christ would be crucified like a common criminal.

Ellen White is emphasizing that the 1843 chart was right and that the time prophecies it shows were as God intended them to be. There was nothing wrong with the time prophecies-- that is, the 2300 days of Daniel 8: 14; the 1,260 days; and the 70 weeks of Daniel 9. So Ellen White was assuring the former Millerites that God was leading in Miller's preaching that Christ would come in 1843, 1844.

Originally Posted By: cardw

John, she used the word directed.

"Directed" and "guided" are synonymns.

God directed, or guided, the Millerite Movement and its preaching of the soon return of Christ.

[John317]

....And what is really the final nail in the coffin is that his source is the White Estate itself, including Arthur White. LOL

Yes, and Arthur White is correct.

What did Arthur White say that you think is "the final nail in the coffin"?

I'm glad to see that you accept Arthur's White's books to be trust-worthy, as indeed they are.

Have you read his multivolume biography of his grandmother? Everything he says in those volumes is supported by valid documentation.