Prophets and Queens

[fccool]

Quote:

This is your explanation and opinion, and you have a right to believe this if you choose to.

I think it's an attempt to re-frame the issue in such a way that makes my explanation merely a fringe one.

Let me give you a couple facts to re-frame this statement where it properly belongs.

1) In terms of Christian world as agglomerate, people who believe that she was a prophet constitute a fraction of 1 percent.

2) Those in that fraction of one percent have various doubts on degree of her inspiration and her role in Adventist movement.

3) For that reason, Adventists don't put her name in prophecy seminars until the very end, because if they came out and said that look what our prophet has written down and what we now believe... they would be conducting prophecy seminars for empty halls.

In such frame of reference, YOURS IS AN OPINION that you have to justify substantially in order for your beliefs to work. Thus, you have a vested interest. Hence, why the above statement is misleading in a way that it is framed.

If I claim to have an imaginary friend. It would not merely be an opinion of other people that I'm having some issues. I'll have to do everything in my power to prove the concept outside of throwing at them the quotes from my friend.

In case of Ellen's writing being only visible to "believers"... of course it would be. I don't dispute the idea, but whether it's valid... there's no possible way to verify it in any frame of reference.

She wrote quite a bit of extra-Biblical content that does not directly contradicts Bible, because that content is missing in Bible all together.

"absence of proof is not proof of absence", is not a very good defense for one's belief.

[John317]

THE ISSUE HERE IS NOT LEGALITY OF THE MATTER. THE ISSUE IS TAKING THE WRITTEN IDEAS OF SOMEONE ELSE AND CLAIMING THAT IT COMES TO YOU AS A REVELATION FROM GOD

OK, so you admit that there was nothing legally or ethically wrong with what Ellen White did.

But you criticize her evidently because she sometimes borrowed other people's writing while claiming that God gave her visions and dreams.

Yet the fact that she sometimes used other people's writings to express what she said God showed her in dreams and visions is no evidence that she was lying about the visions.

You neglect to mention that only a small part of what she wrote used other people's writings. Much that she wrote concerning visions and dreams did not include anything from other people's writings but is completely original with her.

[fccool]

Quote:

Much that she wrote concerning visions and dreams did not include anything from other people's writings but is completely original with her.

And that's where it is a matter of perspective. Let's give just a few examples of where you don't see this issue. I only probably have time for one before I have to run, but it should give you an idea.

a) Ellen does not see a vision from God about the Sabbath to establish the Sabbath. First she get that information from Bates, who gets it from S.D.Bs ideas mixed with eschatological assumptions.

She has a vision that reflects this information.

c) Andrews concludes that Sabbath observance was done wrong.

d) She has a visions that contains that information

In either case, the information predates the vision and is incorporated in it.

Why would it be too far fetched to assume that she borrowed that information for her visions? I think it would be far more legitimate if the visions came first revealing that information.

So the precident to the entire Adventist echatology was not her vision, but the interpretation of that eschatology that was presented to her previously.

Her belief and mind change on subject matter predates the vision.

[fccool]

Imagine the following scenario.

Moses goes up the mountain and claims that he received the law and ordinances from God. Centuries later, we find evidence that these ideas predate Moses, and Moses took these ideas as a base from other literary writers to form a systematic theology that "came from God".

We would not have neither literal interpretation of Judaism, nor Christianity, because there would be little reasons to believe that Moses was not borrowing these things under God's pseudonym. You can assume and believe that God either inspired both writers, or used the previous writer to tell Moses on the mountain to copy and paste from. But such scenario would simply not hold up the scrutiny of religious thought.

I think that Ellen White holds up well as a commentary on the Bible, because that's what it is. She does not hold up well when examining where these ideas are coming from. They are not coming from Ellen, or from God originally. These are coming from personal interpretation of people that Ellen subsequently

a) Accepts as true

Confirms it with a vision

The information predates the vision, which serves as a tool to legitimize certain established belief, rather than convey some new doctrinal information. Thus your statement that her visions include only small portion of other people's ideas is arguably and demonstrably false.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

ClubV, he's got you here. You asked for evidence and here it is. Are you going to at last admit you are wrong? Probably not.

And what is really the final nail in the coffin is that his source is the White Estate itself, including Arthur White. LOL

What does not seem evident to some here is that Truth granted by God is ongoing and can often be open for tweaking as a result of initial ignorance, ignorance born of immaturity not of rejection when it is revealed, as seems evident in the many posts making effort to downgrade the spokespeople whom God has chosen to reveal His will.

[cardw]

No, Shakespeare was no fraud. What he did was common in his day. You need to read more in the history of sixteenth and seventeenth century English literature, especially in the plays of Shakespeare. All literary critics of Shakespeare know that he used other sources, but they don't call Shakespeare a fraud.

What you've given here is a mere theory similar to ones about Shakespeare being a woman, etc.

I earned my BA at California State University in English Literature and studied Shakespeare and literary criticism extensively. I've read almost all of his plays and poetry as well as the writings that he used. It's ridiculous to claim that Shakespeare couldn't have written his works.

If you had taken a class on reasoning you would know that your degrees and study are irrelevant to what you are saying. They have no bearing at all to the accuracy of your statements.

I have found that when people trot out their credentials it is because they lack the evidence for their argument and are trying to rely on authority to bully their point through.

In my line of work sometimes the letters after people's names become longer than their names. It generally clues me in to a portion of their value system and possible insecurities.

[fccool]

Quote:

I earned my BA at California State University in English Literature and studied Shakespeare and literary criticism extensively. I've read almost all of his plays and poetry as well as the writings that he used. It's ridiculous to claim that Shakespeare couldn't have written his works.

Then you are familiar with concept of "ghost writers", both in music and literary genres?

Either way, the comparison is not applicable to begin with, even if Shakespeare did write his works in entirety. He never claimed they came to him as inspiration from God...

[John317]

No, Shakespeare was no fraud. What he did was common in his day. You need to read more in the history of sixteenth and seventeenth century English literature, especially in the plays of Shakespeare. All literary critics of Shakespeare know that he used other sources, but they don't call Shakespeare a fraud.

What you've given here is a mere theory similar to ones about Shakespeare being a woman, etc.

I earned my BA at California State University in English Literature and studied Shakespeare and literary criticism extensively. I've read almost all of his plays and poetry as well as the writings that he used. It's ridiculous to claim that Shakespeare couldn't have written his works.

Originally Posted By: cardw

If you had taken a class on reasoning you would know that your degrees and study are irrelevant to what you are saying. They have no bearing at all to the accuracy of your statements.

I have found that when people trot out their credentials it is because they lack the evidence for their argument and are trying to rely on authority to bully their point through.

The only reason I mention the fact that I earned a BA in English literature and am well acquainted with Shakespeare and 16th century literature and literary criticism is that I saying I know the various theories that people have about Shakespeare. I am not using my degree to say that I am right in my statements. I am saying that my statements are based on having studied the topic for quite a few years at the feet of people who make their living from lecturing on Shakespeare's works. This is obviously relevent because we are talking about Shakespeare.

[John317]

Then you are familiar with concept of "ghost writers", both in music and literary genres?

Either way, the comparison is not applicable to begin with, even if Shakespeare did write his works in entirety. He never claimed they came to him as inspiration from God...

Ellen White never claimed that God gave her the very words that she wrote. What she claimed-- and what I know to be true-- is that she received visions and dreams and that God's Spirit guided her in her choice of what to write. God guided her in the selection of other people's writings which expressed what she wanted to say.

The point I am making when I bring up Shakespeare is the fact that he often used many other sources without giving them credit. There were many writers between Shakespeare's day and Ellen White's time who used other people's writings.

[John317]

...Apparently even Ellen White and the early Adventists didn't get the truth about the Sabbath. They had to wait 10 years to get it right. I guess they weren't listening with the intent to follow God's instructions.

It's the same schtick as the Bible prophets.

Ellen and James White both kept Sunday until 1846. Below she explains how she began to keep the Sabbath:

Quote:

In the autumn of 1846 we began to observe the Bible Sabbath, and to teach and defend it. My attention was first called to the Sabbath while I was on a visit to New Bedford, Massachusetts, earlier in the same year. I there became acquainted with Elder Joseph Bates, who had early embraced the advent faith, and was an active laborer in the cause. Elder B. was keeping the Sabbath, and urged its importance. I did not feel its importance, and thought that Elder B. erred in dwelling upon the fourth commandment more than upon the other nine. But the Lord gave me a view of the heavenly sanctuary. The temple of God was opened in heaven, and I was shown the ark of God covered with the mercy seat. Two angels stood, one at each end of the ark, with their wings spread over the mercy seat, and their faces turned toward it. My accompanying angel informed me that these represented all the heavenly host looking with reverential awe toward the holy law which had been written by the finger of God. Jesus raised the cover of the ark, and I beheld the tables of stone on which the Ten Commandments were written. I was amazed as I saw the fourth commandment in the very center of the ten precepts, with a soft halo of light encircling it. Said the angel: "It is the only one of the ten which defines the living God who created the heavens and the earth and all things that are therein. When the foundations of the earth were laid, then was laid the foundation of the Sabbath also." {1T 75.4}

I was shown that if the true Sabbath had always been kept, there would never have been an infidel or an atheist. The observance of the Sabbath would have preserved the world from idolatry. The fourth commandment has been trampled upon; therefore we are called upon to repair the breach in the law, and plead for the downtrodden Sabbath. The man of sin, who exalted himself above God, and thought to change times and laws, brought about the change of the Sabbath from the seventh to the first day of the week. In doing this, he made a breach in the law of God. Just prior to the great day of God, a message is sent forth to warn the people to come back to their allegiance to the law of God which antichrist has broken down. By precept and example, attention must be called to the breach in the law. I was shown that the third angel, proclaiming the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, represents the people who receive this message and raise the voice of warning to the world, to keep the commandments of God as the apple of the eye, and that in response to this warning many would embrace the Sabbath of the Lord. {1T 76.1}

When we received the light upon the fourth commandment, there were about twenty-five Adventists in Maine who observed the Sabbath; but these were so diverse in sentiment upon other points of doctrine, and so scattered in location, that their influence was very small. There was about the same number, in similar condition, in other parts of New England. It seemed to be our duty to visit these frequently at their homes, and strengthen them in the Lord and in His truth, and as they were so much scattered, it was necessary for us to be on the road much of the time.

[John317]

1) In terms of Christian world as agglomerate, people who believe that she was a prophet constitute a fraction of 1 percent.

It doesn't matter if it's 10% or 30% or .01 percent.

I don't expect a lot of people in the world to believe in her as a prophet of God. Most of those people have never even heard of her, and of the ones who have heard of her, most have never studied her life or read her books for themselves, so I am not surprised they don't believe in her.

But it's important to remember that the truth is never determined by a vote or by popularity.

I am prepared to stand alone in my beliefs in the Sabbath, the Spirit of prophecy, and in the Investigative Judgment, etc. My belief in them is not due to the thinking of non-SDAs and non-Christians. My beliefs and convictions in the Bible as God's Word and in the Spirit of prophecy wouldn't be affected at all if every single person I know of stopped believing in them.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

If you had taken a class on reasoning you would know that your degrees and study are irrelevant to what you are saying. They have no bearing at all to the accuracy of your statements.

I have found that when people trot out their credentials it is because they lack the evidence for their argument and are trying to rely on authority to bully their point through.

The only reason I mention the fact that I earned a BA in English literature and am well acquainted with Shakespeare and 16th century literature and literary criticism is that I saying I know the various theories that people have about Shakespeare. I am not using my degree to say that I am right in my statements. I am saying that my statements are based on having studied the topic for quite a few years at the feet of people who make their living from lecturing on Shakespeare's works. This is obviously relevent because we are talking about Shakespeare.

[cardw]

Ellen and James White both kept Sunday until 1846. Below she explains how she began to keep the Sabbath:

Quote:

I was shown that if the true Sabbath had always been kept, there would never have been an infidel or an atheist. The observance of the Sabbath would have preserved the world from idolatry.

[LifeHiscost]

I am prepared to stand alone in my beliefs in the Sabbath, the Spirit of prophecy, and in the Investigative Judgment, etc. My belief in them is not due to the thinking of non-SDAs and non-Christians. My beliefs and convictions in the Bible as God's Word and in the Spirit of prophecy wouldn't be affected at all if every single person I know of stopped believing in them.

As I recall, Ellen White never sought at all to be recognized as anything other than a messenger for God. While her life may have been more circumspect than many others, enough so that God entrusted her with more than most individuals could be trusted, if she was not what she admitted to, there would be no reason to denigrate her character anymore than anyone would waste time making effort to insure that Alice in Wonderland is recognized as a work of fact.

Her detractors are the greatest evidence that she was not only led of God in the purpose she was used for, but they stand as a strong witness of the continuing conflict between the Lord of glory and the demon possession that is becoming more and more prevalent in this all too decadent age.

"Yes, and everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. But evil people and impostors will flourish. They will deceive others and will themselves be deceived.

But you must remain faithful to the things you have been taught. You know they are true, for you know you can trust those who taught you." 2 Timothy 3:12-14 NLT

God blesses!

[SivartM]

The foundations of all reality is based on a day that has no meaning on any planet but ours. And its meaning to completely arbitrary to the calendar system we have chosen to reference. And this is defended in face of its complete lack of logical evidence by saying that we shouldn't question god's mysterious ways.

Okay, I'm sorry for being rather pedantic here, but the quote actually connects the Sabbath to the earth, not to all of reality; a span of time isn't consistent throughout the universe, but it is on the earth. A ritual like the Sabbath serves to culture a sense of spirituality not directly connected with a particular earth cycle, but inseparable from the earth itself; it means a rejection of the pagan reverence of nature, while still connecting the spiritual with the material. I don't think Ellen was saying that it was the foundation of the whole universe; I think that she saw it more as a crucial way for humans to associate the physical with the spiritual. One counted spin of the earth reminding people of their creator. If Ellen White had been teleported to Mars, then assuming she survived the trip she probably would have come up with a new kind of Sabbath.

I agree with your post overall. But even though the idea of the Sabbath does not have any physical rationale, it still makes metaphorical sense. And because I spent fifteen minutes writing out this rambling paragraph after midnight, I'm going to post it whether it makes sense or not!

[John317]

A young man was getting ready to graduate college. For

many months he had admired a beautiful sports car in a dealer's

showroom, and knowing his father could well afford it, he told

him that was all he wanted.

As Graduation Day approached, the young man awaited

signs that his father had purchased the car. Finally, on the

morning of his graduation his father called him into his private

study. His father told him how proud he was to have such a fine

son, and told him how much he loved him. He handed his son

a beautiful wrapped gift box.

Curious, but somewhat disappointed the young man

opened the box and found a lovely, leather-bound Bible. Angrily,

he raised his voice at his father and said, "With all your money you

give me a Bible?" and stormed out of the house, leaving the holy

book.

Many years passed and the young man was very successful in

business.

He had a beautiful home and wonderful family, but realized his

father was very old, and thought perhaps he should go to him. He

had not seen him since that graduation day. Before he could make

arrangements, he received a telegram telling him his father had

passed away, and willed all of his possessions to his son. He

needed to come home immediately and take care things.

When he arrived at his father's house, sudden sadness and

regret filled his heart.

He began to search his father's important papers and

saw the still new Bible, just as he had left it years ago. With

tears, he opened the Bible and began to turn the pages. As he

read those words, a car key dropped from an envelope

taped behind the Bible.

It had a tag with the dealer's name, the same dealer who had the

sports car he had desired. On the tag was the date of his graduation,

and the words...PAID IN FULL.

How many times do we miss God's blessings because they are not

packaged as we expected?

By: Alchuykuletz Gempesao Portolaso

[fccool]

Quote:

But it's important to remember that the truth is never determined by a vote or by popularity.

Once again, this is an incredible double-standard that you choose to set up, while throwing a cliche around, on top of misinterpreting what I'm saying here.

I don't really have time to dig through your thoughts, but you've mentioned something to the tune that there are a lot of reputable authors who accepts her authority. That was a response to that idea.

Secondly, for you, truth was determined by numerous progressive votes, because that's how Bible was put together. It was put together by vote, and that's the reason today that you believe some books are inspired, although some of them are parables that glorify immoral acts in the name of Jewish nationalism(books like Esther). The other books were voted out.

Bible was put together by vote.

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/canon.html

[fccool]

Quote:

Ellen White never claimed that God gave her the very words that she wrote. What she claimed-- and what I know to be true-- is that she received visions and dreams and that God's Spirit guided her in her choice of what to write. God guided her in the selection of other people's writings which expressed what she wanted to say.

It's same as saying that "I'm not a prophet, I'm God's messenger" . Come on! God's messenger is a definition of a prophet.

It's like if someone is asked, "Are you a doctor?" and the reply is, "No, I just graduated from medical school, went through my residency, and now I'm getting paid to do surgery on people".

It's absurd that she never claimed to be a prophet. She did. She just avoided the word in order for specific reasons.

Likewise, the idea that God did not give her exact words, but guided the words how to write is very similar in nature. Lack of error requires precision. Such precision requires specific directions.

Let's say you drive a car, and you are guided by GPS. For you to arrive at a specific destination without error, you have to closely follow the advice of the GPS. Sure, GPS is "guiding you" just as much as it is dictating your every turn.

So your wording of

Quote:

Ellen White never claimed that God gave her the very words that she wrote.... God's Spirit guided her in her choice of what to write. God guided her in the selection of other people's writings which expressed what she wanted to say.

Is very misleading, in a very subtle way that perhaps you yourself don't even catch. I'll point out a couple of problems here:

1) If Holy Spirit guided her to specific IDEA in other people's writings, then it's not very different from the idea that God gave her specific words to write.

In writing terms, once the idea is solid, one can express that idea in any given semantic choice of words. The order and choice of words can be altered with meaning still intact. What you are saying that HS guided Ellen to specific writers and paragraphs.

a) How is it different than saying that God told her what to write?

How can you possibly know that HS in fact worked in such manner, when she copied indisputable errors from these sources?

2) You are working backwards in your reason.

a) You first believe something.

Then you come up with various evasive and possible explanations that validate your belief, while you ignore the most obvious ones that logically follow.

You keep evading my questions about this.

Could it be possible that she read these ideas, and then either consciously or subconsciously based her visions on these ideas?

I've already shown you that she did not have a single major doctrine that comes out of the vision BEFORE she either reads it somewhere, or someone convinces her of that doctrine to be valid.

What's the purpose of the visions then? If she already believes something to be true, then why was vision even needed to confirm that belief?

Wouldn't it make more sense, that given the sequence of the information given, that she used the visions to create a systematic doctrine based on bits and pieces of materials and teachings that came to her?

[SivartM]

How many times do we miss God's blessings because they are not

packaged as we expected?

I never quite understood that story, to be honest. Read the Bible and get a free car? :)

[fccool]

Quote:

I never quite understood that story, to be honest. Read the Bible and get a free car?

Nop. The moral of the story seems to be ... ignore your father's original wishes, and then become successful, and get the original present on top of everything that father left you as inheritance.

On the serious note, I understand what you are trying to say John. The premise is that we miss something great, because it's packaged as something that we did not expect.

But, could the same thing be told of you? You approach it from the idea that we've never experienced what you did. Trust me, I went through all of the motions, crying, and feeling "genuine happiness", and the leading of the HS.

I went to a Christian college and got a Bible minor for that reason. I was genuilny doing and following all A-B-Cs. I did not drink, did not smoke, felt terrible about the bad habits of mine and did everything to avoid them, did not have sex till marriage, prayed quite a bit, participated in Bible studies, was baptized, viewed past events as God leading me, and certain "miraculous happenings" as answers to prayer, and talked to God and defended "the truth" that I accepted unquestionably.

BUT, I ignored the alternative perspectives.

I ignored that perhaps things could be viewed from other side and still make sense, and that there are other, more probable explanations for the unexplained events.

When you see a person approaching to you on a street, and he says "Hey, buddy. God told me to get a $100 from you, so I can feed my family."

You

a) Give him a $100

Check whether he really has a family in need

c) Inquire him about his knowledge of the Bible

d) Say that he can go to church and get help there

Let's say that you picked D. He then rolls his eyes breathless, and then quotes a couple scripture verses... then says that God is really angry with you for rejecting His calling, and that you are deceived by the Devil.

What would you do, but to ignore that guy? He is not presenting to you substantial evidence to really make you believe. Sure, there's a remote possibility that the guy really had a message from God, but more plausible explanation is that He did not.

And here lies the essence of the problem

You are saying that God and angels are so sensitive to people's understanding and expectations that they would resort to speaking the Old King James English... and yet, you are saying that God will not go on to fulfill even basic expectations of evidence, in such that we should ignore our expectations and believe nevertheless.

Which one is it?

[SivartM]

What would you do, but to ignore that guy? He is not presenting to you substantial evidence to really make you believe. Sure, there's a remote possibility that the guy really had a message from God, but more plausible explanation is that He did not.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: fccool

What would you do, but to ignore that guy? He is not presenting to you substantial evidence to really make you believe. Sure, there's a remote possibility that the guy really had a message from God, but more plausible explanation is that He did not.

I think the Bible has a similar situation which never made sense to me:

Quote:

Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)

Is the "unexpected package" we're supposed to find blessings in a new, leather-bound Bible, or some random guy telling us to give him money or slap him in the face because God said to?

LOL

And then in response you will get the apologists asking you.

So are you saying that we shouldn't obey god?

You have to read the whole bible. To base your view of god on this one text isn't fair to god. We have to remember that god was working with them where they were. He had to impress on them the importance of obeying his servants.

We shouldn't question god's ways because we have faith that he will explain all of these uncertainties once we get to heaven. We have no way of knowing the complexities of how god was working with these people. Who are we to question the workings of god? God created us so he has a right to do with us as he pleases because we know that whatever god does for us is for our own good.

He has given us ample evidence for us to choose. You can always find something to hang your doubts on.

You question god because you don't like what he asks of you and you want to follow your own selfish ways.

And on and on and on.

Apparently god doesn't think an explanation is needed for killing a guy because he didn't slap a prophet. LOL

It's hard not to laugh. :)

[Tom Wetmore]

Then there is the strange story of the man of God and the prophet in 1 Kings 13. In short the man of God was instructed by God to return home without stopping to eat or drink. A prophet met him along the way, lied to him that an angel had instructed him to invite the man of God home to get some food and drink. When the Man of God fell for it and disobeyed God, the prophet got a message from God to give to the man of God that the man of God would be punished. The man of God was subsequently killed by a lion for his disobedience and nothing happened to the prophet for deceiving the man of God into disobedience.

Apparently lying and falsely claiming to have a message from God is OK for a prophet to do. But disobeying God is punishable by death even if it happens as a result of being duped by a lying prophet.

Hmmmm....

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

"It's the same schtick as the Bible prophets. If something goes bad then either the nation is doing evil or some obscure individual has cursed the whole nation because they are disobeying or stole some stuff or Moses wasn't holding his hands up or they aren't sacrificing on the right hill or they aren't praying right or any one of a hundred other details."

When there's no leg left to stand on, kill the messenger with ridicule and disdain.

God blesses!

[fccool]

Quote:

When there's no leg left to stand on, kill the messenger with ridicule and disdain.

I don't think you realize how ironic the above accusation sounds , in the context of this discussion, and lack of proof presented.