LifeHiscost Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 Then there is the strange story of the man of God and the prophet in 1 Kings 13. In short the man of God was instructed by God to return home without stopping to eat or drink. A prophet met him along the way, lied to him that an angel had instructed him to invite the man of God home to get some food and drink. When the Man of God fell for it and disobeyed God, the prophet got a message from God to give to the man of God that the man of God would be punished. The man of God was subsequently killed by a lion for his disobedience and nothing happened to the prophet for deceiving the man of God into disobedience. Apparently lying and falsely claiming to have a message from God is OK for a prophet to do. But disobeying God is punishable by death even if it happens as a result of being duped by a lying prophet. Hmmmm.... God knew the man of God was ready to meet His Maker, whereas the prophet, even though he was a false prophet, still had the potential of repentance if given the extra time, something many will not make use of and will lose eternity as a result of their own choices. "...in the name of the Lord Jesus. You must call a meeting of the church. I will be present with you in spirit, and so will the power of our Lord Jesus. Then you must throw this man out and hand him over to Satan so that his sinful nature will be destroyed and he himself will be saved on the day the Lord returns. Your boasting about this is terrible. Don’t you realize that this sin is like a little yeast that spreads through the whole batch of dough?"1 Corinthians 5:4-6 NLT Bold mine LHC "For God says,“At just the right time, I heard you. On the day of salvation, I helped you.” Indeed, the “right time” is now. Today is the day of salvation." 2 Corinthians 6:2 NLT God blesses! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
SivartM Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 God knew the man of God was ready to meet His Maker, whereas the prophet, even though he was a false prophet, still had the potential of repentance if given the extra time, something many will not make use of and will lose eternity as a result of their own choices. So the moral is to be a false prophet to buy more time for yourself, while letting those who innocently believe you to be violently killed for their terrible sin? And that's okay because in the midst of their "disobedience to God" they were in actuality simply ready to meet their maker? Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus
Members phkrause Posted October 16, 2011 Members Posted October 16, 2011 So the moral is to be a false prophet to buy more time for yourself, while letting those who innocently believe you to be violently killed for their terrible sin? And that's okay because in the midst of their "disobedience to God" they were in actuality simply ready to meet their maker? So than give us a better understanding of this passage? Since you seem to either not understand the passage or just don't like the one being claimed by LHC. Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
SivartM Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 I don't have an explanation for the passage; the happiest possible one I can think of is that someone simply interpreted a series of events in an unpleasant way based on their conception of God. And that is actually what LHC is doing; reinterpreting the events in the passage to fit his conception of God; that's all that I was pointing out. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus
cardw Posted October 17, 2011 Author Posted October 17, 2011 Quote: When there's no leg left to stand on, kill the messenger with ridicule and disdain. I don't think you realize how ironic the above accusation sounds , in the context of this discussion, and lack of proof presented. Really, considering that killing the messenger is his primary "defense." LOL Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
LifeHiscost Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 Quote: When there's no leg left to stand on, kill the messenger with ridicule and disdain. I don't think you realize how ironic the above accusation sounds , in the context of this discussion, and lack of proof presented. Maybe this is more to your liking. "I would acknowledge the Holy Bible is the Word of God and that He created me. Therefor my intelligence has to be so vast and complete that nothing He says is beyond my ability to understand and pass judgement on others for their obvious lack of discernment, which discernment being a gift of the Holy Spirit and I don't have it, God must be the One at fault. Or else He just isn't." "“My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts,” says the Lord. “And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine." Isaiah 55:8 NLT " they say to God, ‘Depart from us, For we do not desire the knowledge of Your ways."Job 21:14 NKJV And yet, for those who take their right to choose to be identified with the Creator God, we have this promise below. "You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness."1 Thess 5:5 NKJB Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”John 8:12 NKJV Quote Lift Jesus up!!
fccool Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 Quote: "I would acknowledge the Holy Bible is the Word of God and that He created me. Therefor my intelligence has to be so vast and complete that nothing He says is beyond my ability to understand and pass judgement on others for their obvious lack of discernment, which discernment being a gift of the Holy Spirit and I don't have it, God must be the One at fault. Or else He just isn't." It's very difficult for me to understand what you are trying to say here. Quote
LifeHiscost Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 Reinterpret means to take from a previous interpretation. I was merely taking the incident in the light of God's character, as evidenced by 1 Cor 13, a way revealing a possibility for God to save both individuals for His kingdom, while applying justice to acts that were inappropriate according to the directions He gave each previously. Love ministered: "Love....is ever ready to believe the best of every person...."1 Cor 13:7 AMP Justice necessary in love: "But anyone who does not love does not know God, for God is love."1 John 4:8 NLT Bold mine LHC "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap." Gal 6:7 NKJV God blesses! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 Quote: "I would acknowledge the Holy Bible is the Word of God and that He created me. Therefor my intelligence has to be so vast and complete that nothing He says is beyond my ability to understand and pass judgement on others for their obvious lack of discernment, which discernment being a gift of the Holy Spirit and I don't have it, God must be the One at fault. Or else He just isn't." It's very difficult for me to understand what you are trying to say here. Looking back over it, my words sound pretty convoluted to me too? Hopefully the Word is more understandable. "So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it."Isaiah 55:11 NKJV God blesses! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
SivartM Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 Reinterpret means to take from a previous interpretation. I was merely taking the incident in the light of God's character, as evidenced by 1 Cor 13, a way revealing a possibility for God to save both individuals for His kingdom, while applying justice to acts that were inappropriate according to the directions He gave each previously. "taking the incident in light of" = reinterpreting, "God's character" = your conception of God. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus
LifeHiscost Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost Reinterpret means to take from a previous interpretation. I was merely taking the incident in the light of God's character, as evidenced by 1 Cor 13, a way revealing a possibility for God to save both individuals for His kingdom, while applying justice to acts that were inappropriate according to the directions He gave each previously. "taking the incident in light of" = reinterpreting, "God's character" = your conception of God. And where would we get the most reliable source of that conception? "In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother." 1 John 3:10 NKJV God blesses! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
SivartM Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 "In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother."1 John 3:10 NKJV Would you say that you practice righteousness? I would have assumed that you would say that you are sinful. How does one even form an absolute definition of "righteousness"? The fact that you have to even explain the 1 Kings 13 story shows that the ethics of that author are not exactly the same as the ethics that John had in mind, which are not exactly the same as your ethics thanks to thousands of years of cultural change. Homosexuality was not an issue in John's day, but it is very much so now. Like ethics, conceptions of God have changed vastly over time. Moses was not an Adventist. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus
LifeHiscost Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 Moses was not an Adventist. Think again. Moses was well aware of the coming of Jesus and that He would come again after His resurrection. I would spend a little more time giving Scripture texts but also am aware that people who want it to be proven, very seldom accept the research that another puts in that disproves what they already believe. Consider what amount of time John317 has already spent sharing biblical Truth, with very valid evidence for anyone who wishes Jesus to be their guide. Will the one who has changed their mind as a result of John's efforts, please stand up. God blesses! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
SivartM Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 If Moses was an Adventist then the 28 Fundamentals would be the sixth book of the Torah. Conceptions of God change. Is it that threatening to think that Moses may not have, say, believed in the Trinity? I mean, it wasn't until Christianity had been around for hundreds of years that anyone came up with an explicitly Trinitarian theology. Then again, the Hindus had a Trinity long before that. And this is where I go to bed because I can't write anything that makes sense... Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus
fccool Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 Moses was not an Adventist. Think again. Moses was well aware of the coming of Jesus and that He would come again after His resurrection. I would spend a little more time giving Scripture texts but also am aware that people who want it to be proven, very seldom accept the research that another puts in that disproves what they already believe. I would love for you to show me text where Moses knew that Jesus would be coming, dying, and coming back. Quote
ClubV12 Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 The early Millerites were Adventists, even though it took decades to hammer out the doctrines and the 28. An Adventist is simply one who looks forward to the coming of Christ. A Seventh-day Adventist, in addition, keeps the Sabbath holy. Adam, Noah, Moses, many others down through history, all Seventh-day Adventists. It was the Lord who provided the name, not man, the name is remarkably revealing in it's scope. Even Adam knew of a coming Messiah. The entire theme of the sanctuary in the wilderness was about a coming Messiah. There are hundreds of prophecies in the Old Testament about the coming Messiah. The "wise men" who came to Bethlehem, they weren't ever Jews but THEY knew of a coming "King of the Jews". And they came to worship Him. Quote
SivartM Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 Then there are a lot more Seventh-day Adventists than I thought there were! Most sabbatarians probably also believe in the second coming. The 28 FBs have been shortened to 2; I'm not sure how most Adventists will feel about that. I understand what you're saying, but Seventh-day Adventist is still a term used to describe members of the Seventh-day Adventist religion that was organized in 1863. It's a common practice but historically questionable to assume that the major figures of one's religion were basically like adherents of today. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus
CoAspen Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 Quote: The early Millerites were Adventists, even though it took decades to hammer out the doctrines and the 28. An Adventist is simply one who looks forward to the coming of Christ. A Seventh-day Adventist, in addition, keeps the Sabbath holy. Adam, Noah, Moses, many others down through history, all Seventh-day Adventists. It was the Lord who provided the name, not man, the name is remarkably revealing in it's scope. So the church is wrong in copyrigthing the name, since it belongs to God! So actually the SDA church is much larger than we ever imagined. So we don't need the '28' or believe in them to be an SDA, only two items required to be an SDA. So all this fussing back and forth over time about what is required to be a 'true SDA' has been a really big waste of time. You have really simplified the whole issue! Awesome! Quote
Members phkrause Posted October 17, 2011 Members Posted October 17, 2011 You have really simplified the whole issue! Awesome! LOL,I do kind of agree that all where SDA. but I like to look at it differently! I see us as Messianic Jews. If it wasn't for the Jews would we have Christianity? They gave us our foundation. If anything all were Sabbath keepers, that is our common denominator, other than Jesus of course. Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Administrators Gail Posted October 17, 2011 Administrators Posted October 17, 2011 We certainly owe our heritage to them! Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
Moderators John317 Posted October 17, 2011 Moderators Posted October 17, 2011 Amen! Like Jesus said, "Salvation is of the Jews." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
ClubV12 Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 The evil doer came close to snuffing out Seventh-day Adventists during the dark ages. But there was always somebody, somewhere who was keeping the Sabbath and looking forward to His coming. I don't put a lot of stock on knowing history is filled with Seventh-day Adventists, as if "we" could trace our roots back to Adam to or something. As if that was some kind of "big deal". But considering the meaning of the name, it sure is interesting! It's note worthy how much we owe to a Catholic, Luther, now thats some irony! Quote
LifeHiscost Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 The evil doer came close to snuffing out Seventh-day Adventists during the dark ages. But there was always somebody, somewhere who was keeping the Sabbath and looking forward to His coming. I don't put a lot of stock on knowing history is filled with Seventh-day Adventists, as if "we" could trace our roots back to Adam to or something. As if that was some kind of "big deal". But considering the meaning of the name, it sure is interesting! It's note worthy how much we owe to a Catholic, Luther, now thats some irony! There may be no "big deal" in the eyes of some, but for the believer, having the King and Creator of the universe as your Father seems like a really big deal. "But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;"1 Peter 2:9 NASB Bold their's LHC "And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. Romans 2:27-29 NKJV God blesses! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
ClubV12 Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 LHC, of course, an excellent point, having God as our Father is indeed a "big deal". Though I remain cautious in drawing a connection between Seventh-day Adventists and Adam, as if that gives extra (proud maybe) credence to our modern church. .... whispers,,, but aint it cool, we really CAN trace our heritage that far back. Quote
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