Prophets and Queens

[John317]

Why did God purposely want the 1883 charts to be wrong?

Don't give me the non-answer that the same thing happened in the Bible.

Talking about the parallels between the way God works today and the way He worked according to the Bible is far from being a non-answer.

Are you talking about the 1843 charts?

God simply allowed people to make mistakes and used those errors for His purposes. He didn't cause people to teach or preach things that were untrue.

The reason God allowed the proclamation of 1843-1844 to be about the second coming rather than about the Investigative Judgment was that humanity wouldn't have paid any attention to Miller if he had been teaching that Christ was beginning the Pre-Advent Judgment in 1844.People would simply have said, "Oh, ok-- so that's what's going on in heaven, and it won't matter to anyone until Christ returns, right? Well, I'm going to get a beer-- tell me when Christ comes. I'll get ready then." As it was, millions all over the world heard the message because it concerned the return of Christ to the earth and they knew His return would affect them personally and seriously.

Similarly, if the disciples had known that Christ was going to be killed as a common criminal, instead of becoming a king, they wouldn't have followed Him. They would have been discouraged right from the get-go. They wouldn't have been able to understand or accept it as the truth.

[cardw]

Here is a quote from the White Estate apologetics

Quote:

Understanding this 1856 prediction requires an understanding of the Biblical principle of conditional prophecy.19 Those who trust the Biblical accounts of unfulfilled prophecy will have no difficulty understanding Ellen White’s 1856 statement. She made frequent reference to the fact that God is not changing His mind about the timing of the Advent; His people have not fulfilled their part of the gospel commission.

What you have here is a generalized response. If prophecy is conditional then it isn't proof because one can always claim that the conditions were not met.

The whole section is basically a triumphal announcement of what she really meant. It is conjecture. It's not an honest response to the problems. It's propaganda itself.

The devil is in the details and there is a decided lack of detail.

[John317]

You are certainly able to moderate as you wish, but I wonder why you don't moderate against atheist propaganda? The forum is full of it. I'm not complaining, but this new found sensitivity seems a little one sided.

I'm sensitive to what I perceive to be truth, and since this is a Christian, SDA Forum, you might expect me to view the SDA church differently than I do atheism.

I wouldn't allow lies to be told about atheists if I saw them. Any lies are wrong-- no matter who they are told about. If you see lies told either about you or about other topics on Forum that I moderate, send me a PM.

But opinions are another thing. As the moderator, I allow more freedom of expression than you will find on just about any other Christian/SDA forum that I know of. I'm co-Administrator of two other Forums where such links as you've posted here would be immediately deleted.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Why did God purposely want the 1883 charts to be wrong?

Don't give me the non-answer that the same thing happened in the Bible.

Talking about the parallels between the way God works today and the way He worked according to the Bible is far from being a non-answer.

Are you talking about the 1843 charts?

God simply allowed people to make mistakes and used those errors for His purposes. He didn't cause people to teach or preach things that were untrue.

[John317]

...

John, you're not reading your own prophet.

From the Great Controversy Ellen White says

(I Saw)the 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that it should not be altered, that the figures were as He wanted them

It is very plain that the chart with its errors was exactly as God wanted them according to Ellen White.

You are flat wrong here and yet you won't admit it. This is being dishonest.

Here's the quote:

Quote:

September 23, the Lord showed me that He had stretched out His hand the second time to recover the remnant of His people, [sEE PAGE 86.] and that efforts must be redoubled in this gathering time. In the scattering, Israel was smitten and torn, but now in the gathering time God will heal and bind up His people. In the scattering, efforts made to spread the truth had but little effect, accomplished but little or nothing; but in the gathering, when God has set His hand to gather His people, efforts to spread the truth will have their designed effect. All should be united and zealous in the work. I saw that it was wrong for any to refer to the scattering for examples to govern us now in the gathering; for if God should do no more for us now than He did then, Israel would never be gathered. I have seen that the 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that it should not be altered; that the figures were as He wanted them; that His hand was over and hid a mistake in some of the figures, so that none could see it, until His hand was removed. [THIS APPLIES TO THE CHART USED DURING THE 1843 MOVEMENT, AND HAS SPECIAL REFERENCE TO THE CALCULATION OF THE PROPHETIC PERIODS AS IT APPEARED ON THAT CHART. THE NEXT SENTENCE EXPLAINS THAT THERE WAS AN INACCURACY WHICH IN THE PROVIDENCE OF GOD WAS SUFFERED TO EXIST. BUT THIS DOES NOT PRECLUDE THE PUBLICATION OF A CHART SUBSEQUENTLY WHICH WOULD CORRECT THE MISTAKE, AFTER THE 1843 MOVEMENT WAS PAST, AND THE CALCULATION AS THEN MADE HAD SERVED ITS PURPOSE.] {EW 74.1}

I think the problem is that you are assuming that Ellen White meant God put false words in the mouth of the Millerites. This is not what she's saying. God cannot lie, and Ellen White is not claiming that God lied.

[John317]

An honest thing to do would be to post the questions or allegations and then include the answers given by the Ellen G. White Estate or by other SDAs who accept Ellen White as a genuine prophet.

But would you do this?

Maybe so, but I doubt it.

Originally Posted By: cardw

So you want me to argue both sides?

No, but it does mean that you don't post anti-EGW material as if they've never been answered.

Why not include the answers given by the EGW estate or by others who have already responded to the objections?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

...

John, you're not reading your own prophet.

From the Great Controversy Ellen White says

(I Saw)the 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that it should not be altered, that the figures were as He wanted them

It is very plain that the chart with its errors was exactly as God wanted them according to Ellen White.

You are flat wrong here and yet you won't admit it. This is being dishonest.

Quote:

I have seen that the 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that it should not be altered; that the figures were as He wanted them; that His hand was over and hid a mistake in some of the figures, so that none could see it, until His hand was removed. [THIS APPLIES TO THE CHART USED DURING THE 1843 MOVEMENT, AND HAS SPECIAL REFERENCE TO THE CALCULATION OF THE PROPHETIC PERIODS AS IT APPEARED ON THAT CHART. THE NEXT SENTENCE EXPLAINS THAT THERE WAS AN INACCURACY WHICH IN THE PROVIDENCE OF GOD WAS SUFFERED TO EXIST. BUT THIS DOES NOT PRECLUDE THE PUBLICATION OF A CHART SUBSEQUENTLY WHICH WOULD CORRECT THE MISTAKE, AFTER THE 1843 MOVEMENT WAS PAST, AND THE CALCULATION AS THEN MADE HAD SERVED ITS PURPOSE.] {EW 74.1}

I think the problem is that you are assuming that Ellen White meant God put false words in the mouth of the Millerites. This is not what she's saying. God cannot lie, and Ellen White is not claiming that God lied.

You aren't reading it as it says. It says, "The chart was DIRECTED by the HAND of the LORD."

John there is no wiggle room here. You are applying a logical inconsistency to prove your point, but that's not what it says.

You are using conjecture here. I'm holding you to your standard.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: John317

An honest thing to do would be to post the questions or allegations and then include the answers given by the Ellen G. White Estate or by other SDAs who accept Ellen White as a genuine prophet.

But would you do this?

Maybe so, but I doubt it.

Originally Posted By: cardw

So you want me to argue both sides?

No, but it does mean that you don't post anti-EGW material as if they've never been answered.

Why not include the answers given by the EGW estate or by others who have already responded to the objections?

They aren't answers. They are triumphal musings. They are conjecture on the part of the White Estate.

I have read them looking for good defenses, but they are triumphal nonsense. You can't respond to conjecture because conjecture has no evidence. They appeal to authority and use a lot of circular reasoning.

You have the link, but you do the same thing. You conjecture with an authority that has no basis in evidence. I read Ellen White at face value.

[LifeHiscost]

Well, I really don't like pricks.

And in conclusion, the gospel according to cardw.

God blesses!

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Well, I really don't like pricks.

And in conclusion, the gospel according to cardw.

God blesses!

Huh?

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

"For EVERY question, theory, suggestion of "failed prophecies", contradictions and misquotes there are reasonable, logical, well documented answers. Like so many others who take a position of "dis-belief" you will find plenty of hooks to hang your doubts on."

"There are none so blind as those who will not see."

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Adventists beliefs are indeed a tight box.

"“You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way."Matthew 7:13 NLT

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

The problem is, though, that once you answer the questions about "problems," there will always be many more. So you could be kept busy for a lifetime answering the objections and not have time for much else. That's why Ellen White said she wouldn't be answering any more objections. She had work to do.

We experience something similar on the Adventist Forum. I've written something like over 25,000 posts, most of which are answering people's objections, but I find that for every answer given, there are 10 more objections that come up from different people who apparently never read the answers already posted or the books/web-sites that contain answers to their objections.

Not that you shouldn't go on to more productive work, John, but just to encourage you in your endeavor (which I haven't the patience to pursue, that you have) here's a few thousand amens, hallelujahs, and praise the Lords, to let you know there are many others that pick up on your comments and give thanks to God for the 7,000 who haven't bowed the knee to Baal, and won't.

"Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”"1 Kings 19:18 NKJV

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: cardw

That is why she was sick most of her life.

You don't know these things but they are only conjecture on your part.

It is utter nonsense to think this explains Ellen White's life and writings. It shows an amazing unfamiliarity with the facts of Ellen White's life, character, and personality.

Ellen White decidedly admitted her weakness as a human being and pointed out that her physical infirmities were used of God to keep her humble.

Humility, a virtue that when voiced about one's self, takes the gold off the virtue.

"The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed this prayer: ‘I thank you, God, that I am not a sinner like everyone else.... “But the tax collector stood at a distance and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed. Instead, he beat his chest in sorrow, saying, ‘O God, be merciful to me, for I am a sinner.’ I tell you, this sinner, not the Pharisee, returned home justified before God. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”"Luke 18:11,13,14 NLT

God blesses!

[John317]

:-)

[John317]

Yes, you're right, she did.

[John317]

Why not include the answers given by the EGW estate or by others who have already responded to the objections?

Originally Posted By: cardw

They aren't answers. They are triumphal musings. They are conjecture on the part of the White Estate.

I have read them looking for good defenses, but they are triumphal nonsense.

It looks like you already have your mind made up and have decided you know more about Ellen White than anyone else. Under that condition, there's not a whole lot more that anyone can tell you.

Do you realize that in order to believe what you do about Ellen White, you have to conclude that virtually every writer who's ever written a book about Ellen White-- and almost everyone who ever knew her-- was either a fool or a liar? That's a lot of people, Richard.

Even Ellen White's self-declared enemies-- two of whom lived in her home and knew Ellen and James White very well--- conceded that she was a good Christian woman.

You're ask me and others to reject what everyone else has said about her and accept what you claim about her, even though you have no sound, valid arguments or evidence to support what you're saying about her.

I would have more confidence in your sincerity and desire to know the truth about Ellen White if I saw evidence that you were reading (or had recently read) books about her by people who supported her. But since everything you quote is by people attacking her, I can't help but believe that you aren't interested in knowing what Ellen White was really like. You're not going to know Ellen White as a person or understand her writings by reading anti-EGW books or web-sites.

By the way, I believe the same thing with regards to Joseph Smith. I don't read anti-Mormon or anti-Smith books in order to know Mormonism or Joseph Smith. Same with getting to know Jehovah's Witnesses.

But the point here is that you ought to at least post the answers given by people who support Ellen White and let the readers decide for themselves whether she is right or not. I would think that would only be fair.

[John317]

(quoting EGW): I have seen that the 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that it should not be altered; that the figures were as He wanted them; that His hand was over and hid a mistake in some of the figures, so that none could see it, until His hand was removed. [THIS APPLIES TO THE CHART USED DURING THE 1843 MOVEMENT, AND HAS SPECIAL REFERENCE TO THE CALCULATION OF THE PROPHETIC PERIODS AS IT APPEARED ON THAT CHART. THE NEXT SENTENCE EXPLAINS THAT THERE WAS AN INACCURACY WHICH IN THE PROVIDENCE OF GOD WAS SUFFERED TO EXIST. BUT THIS DOES NOT PRECLUDE THE PUBLICATION OF A CHART SUBSEQUENTLY WHICH WOULD CORRECT THE MISTAKE, AFTER THE 1843 MOVEMENT WAS PAST, AND THE CALCULATION AS THEN MADE HAD SERVED ITS PURPOSE.] {EW 74.1}

I think the problem is that you are assuming that Ellen White meant God put false words in the mouth of the Millerites. This is not what she's saying. God cannot lie, and Ellen White is not claiming that God lied.

Originally Posted By: cardw

You aren't reading it as it says. It says, "The chart was DIRECTED by the HAND of the LORD."

John there is no wiggle room here. You are applying a logical inconsistency to prove your point, but that's not what it says.

You are using conjecture here. I'm holding you to your standard.

1 Kings 22:22, 23-- And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Are you concluding on the basis of what Ellen White said and on the basis of 1 Kings 22: 23 that God caused lies to be told?

[cardw]

Ellen White decidedly admitted her weakness as a human being and pointed out that her physical infirmities were used of God to keep her humble.

Humility, a virtue that when voiced about one's self, takes the gold off the virtue.

In her testimony she talks about her own virtues all the time. Just read it. It's so blatant.

Thanks for making my point!

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: John3:17

(quoting EGW): I have seen that the 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that it should not be altered; that the figures were as He wanted them; that His hand was over and hid a mistake in some of the figures, so that none could see it, until His hand was removed. [THIS APPLIES TO THE CHART USED DURING THE 1843 MOVEMENT, AND HAS SPECIAL REFERENCE TO THE CALCULATION OF THE PROPHETIC PERIODS AS IT APPEARED ON THAT CHART. THE NEXT SENTENCE EXPLAINS THAT THERE WAS AN INACCURACY WHICH IN THE PROVIDENCE OF GOD WAS SUFFERED TO EXIST. BUT THIS DOES NOT PRECLUDE THE PUBLICATION OF A CHART SUBSEQUENTLY WHICH WOULD CORRECT THE MISTAKE, AFTER THE 1843 MOVEMENT WAS PAST, AND THE CALCULATION AS THEN MADE HAD SERVED ITS PURPOSE.] {EW 74.1}

I think the problem is that you are assuming that Ellen White meant God put false words in the mouth of the Millerites. This is not what she's saying. God cannot lie, and Ellen White is not claiming that God lied.

Originally Posted By: cardw

You aren't reading it as it says. It says, "The chart was DIRECTED by the HAND of the LORD."

John there is no wiggle room here. You are applying a logical inconsistency to prove your point, but that's not what it says.

You are using conjecture here. I'm holding you to your standard.

1 Kings 22:22, 23-- And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Are you concluding on the basis of what Ellen White said and on the basis of 1 Kings 22: 23 that God caused lies to be told?

I'm going by exactly what Ellen White said. You are not. You are making stuff up. You are conjecturing, the very thing you condemn me for. This is why I continually point out that you are dishonest. I have provided direct proof that you have been dead wrong in the past and you simply bail.

It is plain English. There is no wiggle room. The verb "directed" does not mean god was taking a passive role. God was not allowing mistakes, he was manipulating the situation to make sure the chart was exactly as god wanted it according to Ellen White.

Here is the quote again since you can't seem to remember what she says.

I have seen that the 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that it should not be altered; that the figures were as He wanted them;

I will repeat that it was as God wanted them according to Ellen White. This is premeditated by god according to Ellen White. So your problem is not with me. It is with your prophet. We are not translating from another language. Ellen White spoke English.

[John317]

Here's a large portion of her "testimony" of how she gave her life to God:

Quote:

My ambition to become a scholar had been very great, and when I pondered over my disappointed hopes, and the thought that I was to be an invalid for life, I was unreconciled to my lot and at times murmured against the providence of God in thus afflicting me. Had I opened my mind to my mother, she might have instructed, soothed, and encouraged me; but I concealed my troubled feelings from my family and friends, fearing that they could not understand me. The happy confidence in my Saviour's love that I had enjoyed during my illness was gone. My prospect of worldly enjoyment was blighted, and heaven seemed closed against me. {1T 13.3}

...When sinners were invited forward to the anxious seat, hundreds responded to the call, and I, among the rest, pressed through the crowd and took my place with the seekers. But there was in my heart a feeling that I could never become

15

worthy to be called a child of God. A lack of confidence in myself, and a conviction that it would be impossible to make anyone understand my feelings, prevented me from seeking advice and aid from my Christian friends. Thus I wandered needlessly in darkness and despair, while they, not penetrating my reserve, were entirely ignorant of my true state. {1T 14.4}

One evening my brother Robert and myself were returning home from a meeting where we had listened to a most impressive discourse on the approaching reign of Christ upon the earth, followed by an earnest and solemn appeal to Christians and sinners, urging them to prepare for the judgment and the coming of the Lord. My soul had been stirred within me by what I had heard. And so deep was the sense of conviction in my heart, that I feared the Lord would not spare me to reach home. {1T 15.1}

These words kept ringing in my ears: "The great day of the Lord is at hand! Who shall be able to stand when He appeareth!" The language of my heart was: "Spare me, O Lord, through the night! Take me not away in my sins, pity me, save me!" For the first time I tried to explain my feelings to my brother Robert, who was two years older than myself; I told him that I dared not rest nor sleep until I knew that God had pardoned my sins. {1T 15.2}

My brother made no immediate reply, but the cause of his silence was soon apparent to me; he was weeping in sympathy with my distress. This encouraged me to confide in him still more, to tell him that I had coveted death in the days when life seemed so heavy a burden for me to bear; but now the thought that I might die in my present sinful state and be eternally lost, filled me with terror. I asked him if he thought God would spare my life through that one night, if I spent it agonizing in prayer to Him. He answered: "I think He will if you ask Him with faith, and I will pray for you and for myself. Ellen, we must never forget the words we have heard this night."

16

{1T 15.3}

Arriving at home, I spent most of the long hours of darkness in prayer and tears. One reason that led me to conceal my feelings from my friends was the dread of hearing a word of discouragement. My hope was so small, and my faith so weak, that I feared if another took a similar view of my condition, it would plunge me into despair. Yet I longed for someone to tell me what I should do to be saved, what steps to take to meet my Saviour and give myself entirely up to the Lord. I regarded it a great thing to be a Christian, and felt that it required some peculiar effort on my part. {1T 16.1}

My mind remained in this condition for months. I had usually attended the Methodist meetings with my parents; but since becoming interested in the soon appearing of Christ, I had attended the meetings on Casco Street. The following summer my parents went to the Methodist camp meeting at Buxton, Maine, taking me with them. I was fully resolved to seek the Lord in earnest there, and obtain, if possible, the pardon of my sins. There was a great longing in my heart for the Christian's hope and the peace that comes of believing. {1T 16.2}

I was much encouraged while listening to a discourse from the words, I will "go in unto the king," "and if I perish, I perish." In his remarks the speaker referred to those who were wavering between hope and fear, longing to be saved from their sins and receive the pardoning love of Christ, yet held in doubt and bondage by timidity and fear of failure. He counseled such ones to surrender themselves to God, and venture upon His mercy without delay. They would find a gracious Saviour ready to present to them the scepter of mercy, even as Ahasuerus offered to Esther the signal of his favor. All that was required of the sinner, trembling in the presence of his Lord, was to put forth the hand of faith and touch the scepter of His grace. That touch ensured pardon and peace. {1T 16.3}

Those who were waiting to make themselves more worthy

17

of divine favor before they venture to claim the promises of God, were making a fatal mistake. Jesus alone cleanses from sin; He only can forgive our transgressions. He has pledged Himself to listen to the petition and grant the prayer of those who come to Him in faith. Many had a vague idea that they must make some wonderful effort in order to gain the favor of God. But all self-dependence is vain. It is only by connecting with Jesus through faith that the sinner becomes a hopeful, believing child of God. These words comforted me and gave me a view of what I must do to be saved. {1T 16.4}

I now began to see my way more clearly, and the darkness began to pass away. I earnestly sought the pardon of my sins, and strove to give myself entirely to the Lord. But my mind was often in great distress because I did not experience the spiritual ecstasy that I considered would be the evidence of my acceptance with God, and I dared not believe myself converted without it. How much I needed instruction concerning the simplicity of it! {1T 17.1}

While bowed at the altar with others who were seeking the Lord, all the language of my heart was: "Help, Jesus, save me or I perish! I will never cease to entreat till my prayer is heard and my sins forgiven!" I felt my needy, helpless condition as never before. As I knelt and prayed, suddenly my burden left me, and my heart was light. At first a feeling of alarm came over me, and I tried to resume my load of distress. It seemed to me that I had no right to feel joyous and happy. But Jesus seemed very near to me; I felt able to come to Him with all my griefs, misfortunes, and trials, even as the needy ones came to Him for relief when He was upon earth. There was a surety in my heart that He understood my peculiar trials and sympathized with me. I can never forget this precious assurance of the pitying tenderness of Jesus toward one so unworthy of His notice. I learned more of the divine character of Christ in that short period when bowed among the praying ones than ever before.

18

{1T 17.2}

One of the mothers in Israel came to me and said: "Dear child, have you found Jesus?" I was about to answer, "Yes," when she exclaimed: "Indeed you have, His peace is with you, I see it in your face!" Again and again I said to myself: "Can this be religion? Am I not mistaken?" It seemed too much for me to claim, too exalted a privilege. Though too timid to openly confess it, I felt that the Saviour had blessed me and pardoned my sins. {1T 18.1}

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

They aren't answers. They are triumphal musings. They are conjecture on the part of the White Estate.

I have read them looking for good defenses, but they are triumphal nonsense.

It looks like you already have your mind made up and have decided you know more about Ellen White than anyone else. Under that condition, there's not a whole lot more that anyone can tell you.

[John317]

1 Kings 22:22, 23-- And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Are you concluding on the basis of what Ellen White said and on the basis of 1 Kings 22: 23 that God caused lies to be told?

[cardw]

1 Kings 22:22, 23-- And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Are you concluding on the basis of what Ellen White said and on the basis of 1 Kings 22: 23 that God caused lies to be told?

This has nothing to do with what Ellen White wrote.

Read what I already posted.

[John317]

... Announcing things and conjecture are not evidence. That's triumphal musings.

That's exactly what you've been doing. You are describing what you've been doing, Richard. That and calling people names. You claim to be opposed to talking against people's characters and calling names, yet if anyone reads your posts, they will see that is the basis of most of your "case." It also comes out in your blog.