what is the reason for our failure?

[skyblue888]

In 1950 Short & Wieland published a book titled, The 1888 Message Re-Examined. I think it would be a good idea to read the very first paragraphs from the Preface, and I would like to leave it open for discussion.

------------

The Advent Movement Has thus far not made progress consistent with its prophetic destiny. The world has not as yet been truly stirred by the threefold message of Revelation 14. Though we may boast of our achievements, regaling ourselves with statistical appraisals of our "phenomenal progress", we cannot escape the conviction of our better, soberer judgment that the Advent movement has so far fallen far short of the divine ideal for it. The conviction is deepening within the movement that its failure is assuming truly vexing proportions. This thought, though increasingly difficult to repress, is not openly confessed, simply because no one seems to know what would be the next step to take following such confession. It must be said, sooner or later, to our shame and confusion, that we have not yet understood very clearly the reasons why the movement has fallen so far short of its ideals.

To say helplessly that the reason is that we have failed to do our duty is merely an expression of the unanswered question in different terms. Why haven't we done our duty, and when will we do it? On the other hand, to say helplessly that God will soon arise and do something is merely to state the unanswered question in still another form: Why hasn't He already done what He will eventually do? We would not dare to charge God with any negligence or reluctance to bring about the complete fulfillment of prophecy, for we know that He has been ready to bring the Advent movement to its ultimate triumph long ago. The question remains, and now insists on being answered: What is the reason for our failure, and how can the difficulty be rectified?"

[Gerr]

A revival of true godliness among us is the greatest and most urgent of all our needs. To seek this should be our first work.--Review and Herald, March 22, 1887.

The world church has made this of prime importance.

[barnz]

Sorry, I'm new to the Adventist Church, what did we fail in?

[skyblue888]

A revival of true godliness among us is the greatest and most urgent of all our needs. To seek this should be our first work.--Review and Herald, March 22, 1887.

The world church has made this of prime importance.

We've been quoting this for decades. How does saying this address the opening statement Gerry? A revival of primitive godliness involves accepting and teaching the true 1888 message and a reorganization. How has the world church made this of prime importance? I have never seen any evidence of this whatsoever in my more than 30 years of being an adventist.

sky

[skyblue888]

Sorry, I'm new to the Adventist Church, what did we fail in?

New to the Adventist church but not a member, right?

Fail to accomplish our God-given mission. The work should have been completed shortly after 1844.

sky

[ClubV12]

Maybe it's just my local church but that IS the message being delivered again and again around here. Righteouness by faith, presented in a balanced way. I'm very grateful for that and do have hope that message will soon be carried forth in greater power to all the Adventist churches. While not everyone is accepting it, at least their talking about it, considering it, I remain hopefull.

I think of it in terms like this:

SOME will understand it, grasp it and thank the Lord for it. The rest will be shaken out in due time.

[skyblue888]

Club, the 1888 message of the righteousness of Christ by daily appropriating to ourselves the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour joins the receiver to Christ the Head of every true believer. Being joined to the Head we become members of the body of Christ and we are organized. There may be no visible organization and yet there could not be a more perfect organization because the Holy Spirit is organizing us and we are actuated by the Head. Those who are organized from the Head will obey Christ as their Head. These will not depend upon man or be controlled by man. (D.A.414) This is the organization that the righteousness by faith message in 1888 called for. Is this what is being presented in your church?

You said, "SOME will understand it, grasp it and thank the Lord for it. The rest will be shaken out in due time."

More like the majority will resist the light and those who receive it will be persecuted out of a church that has been opposed to Gospel Order for more than a century. This is what happened in the days of Christ and we know that history will be repeated as we enter upon the closing scenes.

Those who receive the precious light and are transformed by it as they will be joined to the Head Christ Jesus will be misunderstood and they will be treated as enemies of the church and they will be forced out but these will be the very ones the Lord will use to bring the loud cry to the world, thus finishing the work and cutting it short in righteousness.

sky

[ClubV12]

In effect, your providing a certain definition of what constitutes the "church". There are many different views on the definition. Many of which are in perfect harmony even while they seem to be dramatically different. A thread could run long on that topic, and many threads have.

What I'm seeing locally is a message of individual accountability, delivered from the pulpit, in prayer meeting, in Sabbath school, in special study groups, within and outside of the organized church. This message is that each of us will have to stand alone. With no earthly support of any kind, which obviously means the "church" no matter how you define it. I support that message, as did the woman of the widows mite, as corrupt as that "church" may appear to be or was. As it concerns the organized Seventh-day Adventist church, I will not run ahead of the Lord. I will continue to support it in every possible way, the church, God's chosen people.

For instance, should one withold their tithe because they feel that the brethren are "rich and increased with goods" and have not been good stewards of the funds? Absolutely not! I give to the Lord, through His organized channels, it is between other stewards and the Lord how they use that money. They are accountable to Him, not to me. I will not withold the tithe, or offerings, under any circumstances.

As it concerns other "needs" within the church, for money, goods or services, I use common sense and seek the direction of the Lord in my personal pursuit of good stewardship. In other words, I literally support the church, locally, State wide and Internationally, as every member of the organized church should.

[skyblue888]

Club, Who is talking about supporting or not supporting what they see as the church? why do you bring the tithe issue?

There is no need to have long discussions as to what constitutes the church. The Lord has already defined the church for us but I am not so sure if we are willing to put our preconceived opinions aside any more than we were willing in 1888. There is nothing new under the sun. We feel safe with the traditional concept of the church. The Jews in Christ's day clung to the popular understanding of what constituted the church. They failed to understand the true definition of the church as God saw it and in the end they crucified Christ and persecuted those who were members of the true church.

Do you think that the majority of us today are better than the majority of the Jews were, that we understand the church better than they did? If we think we do, we are sadly mistaken. We are repeating their history and we don't even know it. The widow supported the church as she understood the church to be. If she had fully discerned who Jesus was and that those she supported with her pennies were planning to crucify the Lord of glory, do you think she would have continued to support them? I don't think so. She would have freely given to Christ and to His followers, the true church. Her gift was accepted because she was a sincere and honest soul. It is the same today. There are those among us, in the majority, who are convinced that they should always, no questions asked, turn their tithes and offerings to the Conference and there are those, in the minority, who support those whom they believe God is using to do His work, just as there were some who supported Christ and his disciples and just as there were those, in the minority, who supported the Reformers.

It is left to the individuals to decide what they are going to do with the tithe. It is not for you or for me or for any committee of men to decide where the tithe is going except to support those who are presenting the truth as it is in Jesus, the third angel's message in verity.

sky

[ClubV12]

"Club, Who is talking about supporting or not supporting what they see as the church?"

I don't know Sky, are you?

What IS the point you wish to make about the church being in apostasy and not worthy of "something". The "something" remains as illusive now has it has always been with your posts on this subject. What exactly do you hope to encourage folks to do, as it concerns the church? Leave? Start their own off shoot? Stop paying tithe? What IS your message Sky? Look only to Jesus? The last comment is the most fundamental thing MY church constantly tells it's people. I don't know WHAT your church teaches, but it sure doesn't sound like mine.

"Why do you bring the tithe issue?"

And offerings, as the widow brought, and for which she was blessed. With a sincere heart. Obviously, nothings changed in that regard, any offering or tithe not given in the right spirit has no value. The tithe is one specific way we are counseled to support the church. I'm left wondering, do you have a problem with paying tithe to the sanctioned, organized, official Seventh-day Adventist church? Or are you using YOUR defintion of what constitutes the church and making YOUR own decision about who YOU will or will not support with your tithe?

And please, I know the Ellen White quotes concerning that subject, but here's the thing, SHE was a prophet, we are not.

[John317]

..Fail to accomplish our God-given mission. The work should have been completed shortly after 1844.

I believe the answer in a nutshell is that the church cannot give a message to the world that we ourselves as a people have not yet accepted and put into practice in our own lives.

I'm convinced that most of the church haven't ourselves accepted the message of 1888.

But what do you mean by "shortly after 1855"? Do you mean before 1863 and before 1888?

We know that Ellen White wrote that Christ could have come about 1890, and she did say, too, that Christ could have come even before that time.

I believe that God gives every generation of Seventh-day Adventist an opportunity to accept the Latter Rain and finish the work, but so far none have accepted the invitation to be the last generation.

And so Christ waits. And waits.

[ClubV12]

I tremble to think of what God may have to do to wake His people up. Even so, may it be done, what ever it takes.

[Gerr]

We've been quoting this for decades. How does saying this address the opening statement Gerry? A revival of primitive godliness involves accepting and teaching the true 1888 message and a reorganization. How has the world church made this of prime importance? I have never seen any evidence of this whatsoever in my more than 30 years of being an adventist.

sky

And there are people who keep hankering back to 1888 as though some magic resided in it. I'm looking forward to another Pentecost instead. As for reorganization, that has been done 80 some years ago. Or what kind of reorganization do you have in mind?

[ClubV12]

A good and reasonable question Gerry.

What kind of reorganization, if any, may we propose?

In regards to a single man being the GC President, was the original proposal for a committee to be the ruling party of the GC, comprised of more than two or three men? A committee such as the early church had? With representatives from around the world? Strength in the counsel of multiple brethren.

How much power does our GC President have? Is it to much? Is he not subject to committee's who vote on what should and shouldn't be done? When the committee meets in an official capacity (every few years as the body of the GC), are they or are they not "the highest authority on earth" today?

On a personal note:

I support work and workers along the regular as well as the irregular lines. FIRST and foremost, I support the work along the regular lines, the organized, sanctioned Seventh-day Adventist church. As I'm sure many of us also do. Making offerings as we see the need around us concerning various work and workers, regardless of their "official" position.

[skyblue888]

Club said, "I support the organized, sanctioned Seventh-day Adventist church"

Club, How do you know the Lord sanctions the present organized work?

sky

[ClubV12]

Sky, how do you know He does not?

[skyblue888]

You are asking me after all that I have quoted from the General Conference Bulletins of 1901 and 1903 which clearly show that the present order of things is not according to God's plan but according the devisings of men.

sky

[skyblue888]

Fail to accomplish our God-given mission. The work should have been completed shortly after 1844.

sky

I believe the answer in a nutshell is that the church cannot give a message to the world that we ourselves as a people have not yet accepted and put into practice in our own lives.

I'm convinced that most of the church haven't ourselves accepted the message of 1888.

But what do you mean by "shortly after 1855"? Do you mean before 1863 and before 1888?

John, why don't you provide the quote. I did not say shortly after 1855 but shortly after 1844. Christ should have come back shortly after 1844 as stated in The Great Controversy, p.457,458.

We know that Ellen White wrote that Christ could have come about 1890, and she did say, too, that Christ could have come even before that time.

Exactly as I have stated before, He could have come shortly after 1844.

I believe that God gives every generation of Seventh-day Adventist an opportunity to accept the Latter Rain and finish the work, but so far none have accepted the invitation to be the last generation.

And so Christ waits. And waits.

What about the two calls of the parable of Matt.22?

sky

[ClubV12]

Yes, I am familiar with your position and I do not accept that as proof that God ceased working for and with the organized church as a result of those proceedings. At the same time, I do not underestimate the severity and the legacy the church has been left with.

For the benefit of those reading this thread and understanding this issue for the first time, could you post a "Cliff Notes" version of the primary issues?

From my understanding an important aspect of that was setting up a single man as GC President. Or, would it be more accurate to say, A.G. Daniels assumed that office through intimidation first? Set himself up, and was later confirmed by vote. With a minority of men opposing such a position and they make a compelling case for doing so.

[skyblue888]

Yes, I am familiar with your position and I do not accept that as proof that God ceased working for and with the organized church as a result of those proceedings. At the same time, I do not underestimate the severity and the legacy the church has been left with.

Club

_____________

I never claimed that God ceased to work with the church after 1903 anymore than He ceased to work with the Israelites even though they had put Him aside and asked for a man to be their king. He continued to work with them but He also warned them as to what would happen if they failed to see the error of their way. We know they never did see the error of their way. They clung to the devisings of men until Jesus came and what did they do with Him who should have been their only king? They put Him out of this world.

sky

_______________

From my understanding an important aspect of that was setting up a single man as GC President. Or, would it be more accurate to say, A.G. Daniels assumed that office through intimidation first? Set himself up, and was later confirmed by vote. With a minority of men opposing such a position and they make a compelling case for doing so.

Club

________________

It was never suggested that he assumed the office of president by intimidation but we know that he did assume it until he was later confirmed by vote in 1903 and yes the minoriy report was opposed to this move because it was subversive to the 1901 constitution which was sanctioned by God.

The 1903 constitution was not sanctioned by God for in 1907 the Lord sent this testimony: "The self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men." T.M.481.

The devisings of men are men's constitutions like that of the governments of this world. One man at the top, hierarchy, by-laws, policy book, elections by vote, resolutions, rules and regulations, church manual, creed, etc etc

The folloiwng statement describes best what happens when God is put aside and the devisings of men adopted:

"Rule, rule, has been their course of action." T.M.363.

This order of things has been our legacy ever since which is antagonistic to the 1901 Gospel Order.

The 1901 Gospel Order had been adopted as a result of this call from the Lord. "What we want now is a reorganization. We need to begin at the foundation and to build upon a different principle." E.G. White, G.C. Bulletin, 1901, p.25.

sky

[ClubV12]

I have been searching for some evidence of what Sister White refers to as "...reorganization. We need to begin at the foundation and to build upon a different principle."

OK, so what does that mean, today? Organization and stucture are important considerations. Lets begin at the foundation. What, if anything, needs to be replaced, with what kind of structure?

I've been studying what many call "self supporting" work. Their structure is that every school, enterprise, group, is independant of the others. In terms of legal responsibility at least. Each group stands alone, and yet they share resources as the need arises among them. More or less this is true, some are more closely connected than others of course. I suspect the main reason is that if one group "goes down" for whatever reason, it does not impact the other groups. Actually, I'm a little fuzzy on how they operate...

[skyblue888]

We know what the foundation is, not man, but Jesus Christ.

"The church is is built upon Christ as its foundation; it is to obey Christ as its Head. It is not to depend upon man or to be controlled by man." D.A.414.

When the church depends upon man and is controlled by man, it is following in the track of Rome which is what the Lord was saying we were doing and have been doing. (T.M.362,363,481)

Christ is to be the Head of the church, not man. This is the foundation.

From that foundation springs the new principle upon which the church is built. It is the principle of self-government in Christ by the Holy Spirit as presented by brother Jones during the 1901 General Conference.

sky

[ClubV12]

What IS self supporting work and DOES it have something to offer in the way those groups are run for the larger organized church?

Our publishing work is essentially self supporting. As is 3ABN, It is Written and hundreds of others. Some groups are approaching fanaticism or even outright offshoots. MOST, I get the impression, support the organized church in that they do not accept tithe and they pay tithe to the church. But they remain an independant organization. Many are schools or do substantial hospital type work, like Wildwood Lifestyle Center and Hospital in Georgia.

[ClubV12]

Granted Christ is to be the head. Now how do we apply that principle in a practical way as it concerns the structure of the church?

[skyblue888]

To get a better idea of what that meant, beginning at the foundation and to built upon a different principle, Mrs. White explained:

"Let me tell you, if your heart is in the work, and you have faith in God, you need not depend upon the sanction of any minister or any people; if you go right to work in the name of the Lord, in a humble way doing what you can do to teach the truth, God will vindicate you." 1901 G.C. Bulletin, p.25.

How interesting that she spoke these words right after the Lord had made a call for reorganization.

sky