what is the reason for our failure?

[SivartM]

Caution: Quote war in progress. Please set aside all possibility that the other side may have a point. Empathy is discouraged at this time. Thank you for your attention.

[ClubV12]

Well I guess we could we play the opposing Sister White quotes all night....

I have already posted the BALANCED VERSION of the CHURCH. You fail to recognize it in your "great burden to denounce the church", the official Seventh-day Adventist church. What do you call YOUR group of believers Sky? Reformed Adventists? Independant Adventists? New wave Adventists? New World Order Adventists? Creation Seventh Day Adventist? What is the name you really use?

Once again:

Sister White speaks of an ORGANIZED body of believers, BAPTIZED MEMBERS of God's church. But He has other flocks among the world. Catholics, Baptists, Muslims, Jews, all who accept Him as their personal saviour, sincerely and heart felt.

Those who would denigrate His OFFICIAL ORGANIZED church whose calling is to deliver the third angels message to the world are not fighting against the church, they are fighting against the throne of God.

[SivartM]

Look: I could be completely wrong. Maybe Sky is a secessionist wacko or ClubV12 is a tool of Babylon. Or both. I haven't read every post anyone has ever made.

But I think that what Sky is emphasizing is that we should be faithful to our own beliefs and convictions over our affiliation with an organization; that our personal beliefs are more important than what the church says because the church can be wrong and we need to think for ourselves. Staying true to ourselves is more important than submitting to a church authority.

I think what ClubV12 is emphasizing is that while an organization may have problems, we can't just separate into factions whenever a disagreement comes up, because it's the community that is important; the organization is an abstraction, and if someone has an issue with the community then it's something that needs to be worked through together and not turned into a blame game and demonizing the other side.

So unless I'm wrong, there really isn't a fundamental disagreement; you can see things from another perspective and accept each others' views. Or continue arguing, which will likely happen, but it's late so I may as well post this.

[ClubV12]

That is essentially correct and there is much truth in what Sky says. At what point does any given view become "fanatical"? Here are some guidelines for those who find they cannot work "along the regular lines" of the organized church. They are "self supporting" workers, as PAUL was. As EDSON WHITE was while working in the South. As many are today. They all share these fundamental beliefs in working along the "irregular" lines, as opposed to starting their own faction, off shoot or organized body which they call THEIR independant "church". You know, like Jehovah Witness' have done, or any other organized group of christians.

Seven principles of those who work outside the regular lines:

1. They accept the challenge to minister as self-supporting missionaries.

2. They are willing to sacrifice.

3. They unite their efforts with the church.

4. They help carry God’s last message to the world.

5. They recognize and respect the church.

6. They will be well-balanced in principles and lifestyle.

7. They will bring all the tithes into God’s appointed “storehouse.”

If you group does NOT follow the above guidelines, it is an "off shoot", there is just no other way to say it. #7 is especially important in determining what the substance of a group is.

[ClubV12]

"Satan will work his miracles to deceive; he will set up his power as supreme. The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall."

Some take this quote and define what they see as the "church". They say Sister White is not referring to the "organized church" in this quote. Lets take a closer look. This is a letter she wrote to G. I. Butler and S. N. Haskel in 1886. How do you think these men she is writing to would have defined the "church" in which they were leaders at the time?

Here are more excerpts from this letter...

"No censure can be attached to our leading men. I believe, brethren, you are one with me in heart, in sentiment, in regard to our great need, and in the earnest desire and earnest efforts to meet the mind of the Spirit of God in these things."

"I want to speak to the ears of our people in America in every church."

WHAT "church" is she referring to here? Every single church of all denominations in America? An off shoot group here and there? OR, the organized Seventh-day Adventist church these men she is writing to are a part of?

The letter continues....

"The moral standard of character is God’s law. Do we meet its requirements? Are the Lord’s people bringing their property, their time, their talents, and all their influence into the work for this time? Let us arouse. "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God" [Col. 3:1].

It is CLEAR she is referring to the organized Seventh-day Adventist church in this letter. The same church that "may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall." To this "church" what does she say to do?

"...bringing their property, their time, their talents, and all their influence into the work."

Letter 55, 1886. (Written from Basel, Switzerland, to G. I. Butler and S. N. Haskell, December 8, 1886.). Manuscript Releases, Volume 12 [Nos. 921-999, 1982-1983]. 1993; 2002 (328).

When you leave the church, for whatever reason, you loose your anchor, you will ultimately loose your way. You may be sincere, but you will certainly be "sincerely mistaken".

Do you think it impossible to live up to the blue print of Sister Whites counsel while attending an organized Seventh-day Adventist church? Then you doubt the power of God! There are thousands within the church who DO follow the blue print, who have NOT bowed thier knee to Baal. They have the courage to perservere no matter WHERE they find themselves.

[skyblue888]

"Satan will work his miracles to deceive; he will set up his power as supreme. The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall."

Quoted by ClubV12

_____________________

In the days of Christ, how did Satan set up his power as supreme?

"The men who composed the Sanhedrin exercised their authority in controlling men according to their will. Thus the souls whom Christ had given His life to free from the bondage of Satan were brought under bondage to him in another form." T.M.361.

The leaders of the Jewish Church were determined to bring the individuals to their terms. They would rule or ruin.

It appeared that no one would escape. The church appeared to fall but it DID NOT fall. There were the "faithful few," the disciples of Christ who resisted those who would lord it over them. This group became known as the Early Church. Mrs. White, in The Desire of Ages, p.719, identifies them as the "little church" then. This is the church that appeared to fall but did not fall.

It is the same today. We are repeating history.

"The Lord has declared that the history of the past shall be rehearsed as we enter upon the closing work." 2 S.M.390.

"The experience of the church in former ages has lessons of great value for our own time." G.C.343.

How is Satan setting up his power as supreme today?

"The high-handed power that has been developed as though position has made men gods makes me afraid and ought to cause fear. It is a curse wherever and by whomsoever it is exercised. This lording it over God's heritage will create such a disgust of man's jurisdiction that a state of insubordination will result." T.M.363.

Like the men who composed the Sanhedrin in the days of Christ, the official leaders of the church today are "determined to bring the individuals to their terms. They would rule or ruin." T.M.360.

And this is how the church will appear to fall. The "little church" will appear to fall, the church composed of those who resist this lording it over God's heritage. They will be in the minority. They will appear to fall but they will not fall.

One more time the Nicolaitans will be resisted by Antipas within our own ranks first and then during the loud cry to the world. There will be another confrontation between these two groups. The "little church" (Antipas) will again oppose the apostate leaders of Babylon the Great who will attempt to lord it over them.

sky

Nicolaitans

Nico means to rule, to dominate over the laitans, that is, over the laity.

Antipas represent those who oppose "pas" meaning the pa pa cy, who oppose those who would lord it over them. They are the "little church" that will appear to fall but will not fall.

sky

[ClubV12]

I don't see a connection between the Jewish Sanhedrin and there some SIX HUNDRED "laws" and the General Conference today. I see the General Conference as an extension of the early church.

Frankly, it borders on fanaticism to make such a comparison.

[skyblue888]

That's where our problem has been. We think we are the continuation of the Early Church when the Testimonies keep comparing us with the Jewish church.

Mrs. White in Testimonies to Ministers, p.361, which I have just quoted in this thread, makes the parallel between the men of the Sanhedrin and the men of the General Conference.

Read it it again.

sky

[ClubV12]

Nope, don't see it Sky, I suspect your extreme position has you seeing things that aren't there.

When this happens, things are presented out of context, a recurring problem.

[skyblue888]

Have you read it?

I invite all to read what Mrs. White wrote under the subtitle THE HIGH-HANDED POWER, p.361 of Testimonies to Ministers and you will see clearly that she makes a parallel between the men of the Sanhedrin and the men of the General Conference.

sky

[ClubV12]

Sky, you take SO MUCH out of context.

The church is NOT in apostasy as you keep loudly proclaiming. There are certainly people within the church that are, gasp, there ARE sinners in the church! The very people the Lord came to save, not the righteouss.

I am NOT about to quit paying tithe, denounce my membership and withdraw my support from the church. Certainly not even thinking about joining your off shoot group and fighting against the church under the self righteouss banner of "working for the lost sheep of Israel".

[skyblue888]

I realize that some of you may not have the book handy. So I think it would be a good idea to post it again and then you can read it and decide for yourself whether or not Mrs. White is making a parallel between the men of the Sanhedrin and the men of the General Conference.

Here is the statement under the subtitle,

THE HIGH-HANDED POWER

"The high-handed power that has been developed as though position has made men gods makes me afraid and ought to cause fear. It is a curse wherever and by whomsoever it is exercised. This lording it over God's heritage will create such a disgust of man's jurisdiction that a state of insubordination will result. The people are learning that men in high positions of responsibility cannot be trusted to mold and fashion other men's minds and characters. The result will be a loss of confidence even in the management of faithful men. But the Lord will raise up laborers who realize their own nothingness without special help from God. Age after age Jesus has been delivering His goods to His church."

Now notice how the above is immediately followed by these words:

"The men who composed the Sanhedrin exercised their authority in controlling men according to their will. Thus the souls whom Christ had given His life to free from the bondage of Satan were brought in bondage to him in another form."

Club says that he does not see the parallel.

How about you, reader?

sky

[ClubV12]

Out of context Sky. You consistently take a quote here and there and present it to make your case, that the Seventh-day Adventist church is in apostasy.

You present it in such a way as to discourage faith in the General Conference and leadership, the Pastors of the Seventh-day Adventist church. This is not in the spirit of pressing together, it is the spirit of separation.

This particular quote seems to be one of your favorites, you like to dwell on the crisis the church faced AND DEALT with in the early 1900's. 1888 in particular.

Which off shoot group are you associated with Sky? Why do you hide that fact? Such things done in secrecy cannot be of the Lord.

[skyblue888]

As the advent people fell into the Laodicean condition after the great disappointment in 1844, the Lord permitted them to organize into a denomination just as He permitted the Isrealites to have kings. He even chose the name for their denomination just as He chose Saul as the Isrealites' first king. But the Lord will not finish the work through denominationalism per se:

"God has a church. It is not the great cathedrals, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is the people who love God and keep His commandments. 'Where two or three are gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst of them.' (Matt.18:20). Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ's church, for the presence of the High and Holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church." Upward Look, 315.

Thus we read:

"Let me tell you that the Lord will work in this last work in a manner very much out of the common order of things (denominationalism; devisings of men) and in a way that will be contrary to any human planning... God will use ways and means by which it will be seen that He is taking the reins in His own hands." T.M.300. *parentheis supplied

sky

[ClubV12]

"Where two or three are gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst of them.' (Matt.18:20)."

Using this verse, Sky and his group, will tell Adventists they must leave the organized church and setup a home church. They are to stay home on Sabbath and study. Some off shoot groups that promote this idea say a tithe should be collected from the members of the new home church. With some amount, usually 10%, then forwarded to their "General Conference".

Righteouness by faith becomes the focal point for everything, it becomes an "easy religion" where all that is required is to believe, very appealing when you think about it.

This concept of righteouness by faith comes close to "once saved always saved", no work, no effort, no duty.

They share almost all the same doctrines of Seventh-day Adventists with changes ranging from minor to major. There are SO many off shoots from the Adventist faith they are hard to count, with multiple variations.

They share a common theme, and make a compelling argument. They claime the Seventh-day Adventist church has been in apostasy since the late 1800's. The A.T. Jones, Wagonner and Dr. Kellogg were "abused" by the organized church. These three men, in particular Jones, become near "prophets". There writings studied with great admiration, if Ellen White seems to contradict what they say, her writings are made of no effect on that subject.

In the end, the path of error will lay so close to the path of truth your only hope will be a true and deep connection to Christ. You will NOT be able to discern truth from error because the error will appear so lovely, so right, if possible, even the very elect would be deceived.

[skyblue888]

"As the light and life of men was rejected by the ecclesiastical authorities in the days of Christ, so it has been rejected in every succeeding generation. Again and again the history of Christ's withdrawal from Judea has been repeated. When the Reformers preached the word of God, they had no thought of separating themselves from the established church; but the religious leaders would not tolerate the light, and those that bore it were forced to seek another class, who were longing for the truth. In our day few of the professed followers of the Reformers are actuated by their spirit. Few are listening for the Voice of God, and ready to accept truth in whatever guise it may be presented. Often those who follow in the steps of the Reformers are forced to turn away from the churches they love, in order to declare the plain teaching of the word of God. And many times those who are seeking for light are by the same teaching obliged to leave the church of their fathers, that they may render obedience." Desire of Ages, p.232.

In the above quotation is set forth a very clear and definite principle which is as true in any age as in any other, and as true of any one people as of any other. No age and no people are exempt from this principle by special right or special call.

Yet the curious fact is that any people in any age are quick to recognize, to accept and to apply the above principle when it is to their advantage and to their favour but to utterly deny, reject and to war against it if it is not to their favour.

Thus the Jews in the days of Christ viewed with joy and pride any acquisition which came to them from the heathen nations around about. They were indeed zealous missionaries and were forever seeking to draw other peoples into the family of Israel. This is very evident from the words of Christ when He said:

"Ye compass sea and land to make a proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." Matthew 23:15.

They would cheerfully accept the above statement when it told the story of the heathen being forced to turn away from their own teachers to come to the Jews to learn of them but when He came, who was the Truth then, they fought with all the power and strength they had to prevent people leaving the hollow sham which was their message, to go to that which was the real and living way!

The question is, Is there something we can learn from them? Is it possible that we, as a church, could be repeating their history?

sky

[ClubV12]

Your running ahead of the Lord Sky. There is a shaking to come, we are told not to bring upon us the time of trouble, not to hasten the end before the time comes.

Your repeated calls for people to leave the Seventh-day Adventist church are out of place. YOU are the very one Paul warned the church about, a wolf amongst the lambs.

Things that are done in secrect are not of the Lord, your spirit, your motivation is from the evil doer. You are so deluded in your fantasy you can not see the tragic mistakes your making.

You will have blood on your hands for those who follow your false doctrines.

"We should all realize that an angel is writing every word and action in the book of record, and the things done in secret are to be proclaimed upon the housetop." 1888 Materials, 962.

Why do you work in secret Sky? If your message is of the Lord, shout it from the roof top!

[skyblue888]

So it will be that today this test will come nearer home than we could ever have anticipated. Once again, the church raised up, even as the Jews were, to proclaim the very message of God, has come down to the fifth generation. Evidence upon evidence shows that there has been the development of a complex organizational structure wherein the authority of the church and its material prosperity seems to be more important than the proclamation of the truth.

Exactly as in the days of Christ and of the Reformers, the Lord will allow His light to shine upon His people in demonstration and power of the Holy Spirit. That which was first given in 1888 and which, after its unfortunate general rejection then, will be brought again to the church of today.

In all this the history of the past will be repeated to the very letter for, exactly as the Jews and the Romanists reacted to the fresh and living truth among them, so will the leaders of the church of today, while the very emphasis on the supreme authority of the church which was the major defense of the religionists of those days, will likewise become the emphasis and defense of the church today.

The same danger is before us. Exactly as the multitudes blindly followed then, so many will blindly follow today while but few will be able to see the real issues in the matter to make a correct choice between denominationalism on the one hand, and the living truth upon the other.

So we can expect the history of the past to be repeated as once again, the angel of Revelation 18, which is the life and the light of men, is to be rejected by the religious leaders.

to be continued

[ClubV12]

Sky, do you also claim to be a prophet, to have visions and dreams yourself, as your colleague does?

...to be continued

[skyblue888]

What colleague Club?

Does one have to be a prophet to say this:

Exactly as in the days of Christ and of the Reformers, the Lord will again allow His light to shine upon His people in demonstration and power of the Holy Spirit. That which was first given in 1888 and which, after its unfortunate general rejection then, will be brought again to the church of today.

How can one say the above and be labeled a separationist?

sky