what is the reason for our failure?

[skyblue888]

Granted Christ is to be the head. Now how do we apply that principle in a practical way as it concerns the structure of the church?

Club

__________

The structure of the church was officially stated to be that of the Mosaic order, the same that was adopted in the second century and which led to the papacy.

sky

[ClubV12]

"Let me tell you, if your heart is in the work, and you have faith in God, you need not depend upon the sanction of any minister or any people; if you go right to work in the name of the Lord, in a humble way doing what you can do to teach the truth, God will vindicate you." 1901 G.C. Bulletin, p.25.

That is the message I have been hearing in my local church! A small group of us meet on Tuesday nights to discuss this topic, among others. We were going to meet at the church. But due to concerns over the requirement such activities be approved by the board, instead we meet in members homes. One of which has been our Assistant Pastors home! This is essentially a "self supporting" group working within and supporting the organized church. I believe this is consistent with what Sister White is saying above.

The Assistant Pastor pointed out that if even 20 or 30% of the members were out witnessing in a planned way, giving bible studies, etc. his work would be substantially different. It would be training workers and we might need even more Pastors as a result!

[skyblue888]

At that meeting in 1901 Mrs. White said,

"This meeting will determine the character of our work in the future. How important that every step taken is taken under the supervision of God. This work must be carried in a very different manner to what it has been in the past years." E.G. White, 1901 G.C. Bulletin, p.83.

Six years earlier she had stated these solemn words:

"They were determined to bring the individuals to their terms. They would rule or ruin. There will be no material change until a decided movement is made to bring a different order of things." T.M.360.

This decided movement came in 1901 but it didn't last very long. 1903 reversed all that was gained in 1901 and we were back to the devisings of men and it has continued ever since. The Lord sounded the warning:

"If this order of things is allowed to continue, your faith will soon become extinct." T.M.481.

She meant primitive faith and godliness of course.

There is plenty of faith expressed today but is it the genuine article?

sky

[ClubV12]

"There is plenty of faith expressed today but is it the genuine article?"

I am very careful about making such a call on any invidual or group as to the depth or lack thereof of their faith.

I've seen enough to quit looking at people for my standards of acceptable behaviour. Let the "reformation" begin with me personally. But back to the structure if the church. What reforms would be practical to carry out in that regard? Or is it to late to even consider that?

[skyblue888]

Club, it is the Lord who said that, not me.

The structure is that of the Mosaic Order. We need to go back to the order of primitive faith and godliness as examplified in the book of Acts and explained at the 1901 G.C. meeting.

sky

[ClubV12]

Can we? Will we? At some point in the future, or is the church structure as it exists right now, forever doomed? If so, what should we do concerning it?

[skyblue888]

Can we? Will we? At some point in the future, or is the church structure as it exists right now, forever doomed? If so, what should we do concerning it?

Those are good questions, Club.

All we can say is that if there is not a decided movement to change the present order of things, then yes, it is doomed.

Mrs. White must have sensed that it will not change for she warned that "Unless those who can help in--are aroused to a sense of their duty, they will not recognize the work of God when the loud cry of the third angel shall be heard. When light goes forth to lighten the earth, instead of coming to the help of the Lord, they will want to bind about His work to meet their narrow ideas. Let me tell you that the Lord will work in this last work in a manner very much out of the common order of things and in a way that will be contrary to any human planning. There will be those among us who will always want to control the work of God, to dictate even what movements shall be made when the work goes forward under the direction of the angel who joins the third angel in the message to be given to the world.God will use ways and means by which it will be seen that He is taking the reins in His own hands. The workers will be surprised by the simple means that He will use to bring about and perfect His work of righteousenss. Those who are accounted good workers will need to draw nigh to God, they will need the divine touch. They will need to drink more deeply and continuously at the fountain of living water, in order that they may discern God's work at every point. Workers may make mistakes, but you should give them a chance to correct their errors, give them an opportunity to learn caution, by leaving the work in their hands." T.M.300.

How will they draw nigh to God that God may draw nigh to them?

The answer is found in the following statements:

"Draw nigh to God and He will draw nigh to you. Present your case before God pleading the merits of the blood shed for you upon Calvary's cross." F.W.106.

This will be their only plea.

"Christ looked forward to the time when the Holy Spirit, as His representative, should come to do a wonderful work in and through His merits." T.M.402.

Did this help?

sky :)

[joeb]

To me, there is only one reason for our failure. It is the lack of our surrender of self to God. It is expressed in our lack of love for one another and our lack of love for the millions of our fellow man who are dying without the knowledge of who God really is because we are not rightly representing Him.

I read a statement this week from Thoughts From the Mount of Blessings in which Ellen White says that anything Christ recieved from the Father is ours if we will only surrender self the way Christ surrendered Himself to His Father. That means we can have the Holy Spirit without measure, as Christ did, if we will but fully surrender self. In Christ's Object Lessons she states that Christ is waiting for His character to be perfectly manifested in His people and when that happens He will come.

So, the reason we have failed? Our failure to really desire the character, the love, Christ has for us. The cause of that? Our selfishness. It's pretty sobering to think of all the suffering that has gone on since the 1850's and realize it is our fault. We are the key to the 2nd coming and an end to all suffering and pain. It is our choices as individuals that keeps things going on as they have been.

[ClubV12]

I liked this part:

"Workers may make mistakes, but you should give them a chance to correct their errors, give them an opportunity to learn caution, by leaving the work in their hands." T.M.300.

The message has always been and remains that each of us need a deeper closer connection with Christ.

But saying that over and over and in so many ways does not address the practical steps to a reorganization from the foundation up that "needs" to be undertaken. As always, when this subject comes around, "we" are left with no specific answers. Just a general feeling that the church is in apostasy, that it will not recover, that God no longer works through the organized channels and the church will not only "fail" it HAS failed! Thus, we should not bother to "support it", but there is no clear definition of what "support" means.

With holding tithes and offerings DOES seem to be suggested. Along with...? Stop going to church? Carry signs and walk around the parking lot seven times? What are the recommendations for the members of the church that sit in the pews every Sabbath????? Besides they need a closer connection with Christ, I think that answer avoids the real issues at stake here.

[ClubV12]

How to identify TRUE self supporting work, some times referred to as "work along the irregular lines".

1. They accept the challenge to minister as self-supporting missionaries.

2. They are willing to sacrifice.

3. They unite their efforts with the church.

4. They help carry God’s last message to the world.

5. They recognize and respect the church.

6. They will be well-balanced in principles and lifestyle.

7. They will bring all the tithes into God’s appointed “storehouse.”

It is note worthy Paul was a self supporting worker, refusing to take any money from the church on his behalf.

[ClubV12]

Seventh-day Adventist church, a definition:

The organized, legal, sanctioned body of believers led by a General Conference. This IS God's church on earth today, when in session, the GC is the highest authority on earth. THIS is THE church on earth to whom God grants His highest regard. There are also "other sheep", not of this fold, whom the Lord also holds in the highest esteem and they are certainly among His followers. They do not, however, comprise His specific "church on earth", being of "another fold".

Sky, do you agree with seven principles listed above as it concerns work along the irregular lines (which is self supporting work)? Such workers do not accept or make a call for tithe on their behalf. If you don't agree with the above seven principles, which ones would you modify and how?

[joeb]

I liked this part:

"Workers may make mistakes, but you should give them a chance to correct their errors, give them an opportunity to learn caution, by leaving the work in their hands." T.M.300.

The message has always been and remains that each of us need a deeper closer connection with Christ.

But saying that over and over and in so many ways does not address the practical steps to a reorganization from the foundation up that "needs" to be undertaken. As always, when this subject comes around, "we" are left with no specific answers. Just a general feeling that the church is in apostasy, that it will not recover, that God no longer works through the organized channels and the church will not only "fail" it HAS failed! Thus, we should not bother to "support it", but there is no clear definition of what "support" means.

With holding tithes and offerings DOES seem to be suggested. Along with...? Stop going to church? Carry signs and walk around the parking lot seven times? What are the recommendations for the members of the church that sit in the pews every Sabbath????? Besides they need a closer connection with Christ, I think that answer avoids the real issues at stake here.

Could you clarify the bolded sentence, ClubV12?

[skyblue888]

In 1903 Mrs. White wrote,

"I am instructed to say that those who would tear down the foundation that God has laid, are not to be accepted as the teachers and leaders of His people." Special Testimonies, Series B, #7, p.36-41; Oct.1903.

The foundation that God had laid at the 1901 General Conference was torn down in 1903. Here is the 1903 report of the Minority Committee:

"The minority report expresses in a word the feelings which actuated the minority in making the report, because we believe that the constitution proposed by the majority of the committee appears to us to be so subversive of the principles of organization given to us at the General Conference of 1897 and 1901. Those principles were given to us by the Spirit of God. In my judgment, and in the judgment of the minority of the committee, this constitution (1903) is absolutely subversive of those principles.

Further: The proposed new constitution reverses the reformatory steps that were taken, and which were adopted as the principles or reorganization, at the General Conference of 1897 and 1901, and which were incorporated in the constitution of 1901." P.T. Magan 1903 General Conference Bulletin, p.150

The Lord, through Mrs. White, sent this warning: "If this is allowed to continue your faith will become extinct." T.M.481.

It has been allowed to continue to this day.

sky

[skyblue888]

Here is a clue as to what constitutes Gospel Order as presented in 1901. All understood that brother Jones had light from God on this matter and he was acknowledged from the pulpit:

"God's organization must come from the Head, which is Jesus Christ, the Head of the church; and it reaches to the individual. Now see the step that was taken in General Conference today. I want you to see how certainly that can never stop until it has reached each individual and brought him face to face with God, to stand there alone only with God. There was presented today, and endorsed, an appeal for local self-government in a certain place. Very good. And then it was said here that that was to be adopted in other parts. Very good. And when that district shall be organized there will be a local self-governing district; but the same process must go farther--each conference must be a self-governing local conference, and each church must be a local self-governing church, and each individual must be a local self-governing individual...

"But no man in this world can be a self-governing individual except as God in Christ is his Head, and the man is governed by the power of God. The only self-government, true self-government, in this world is a man standing in the liberty wherewith Jesus Christ has made him free, master of his worst self and living in the divine self, which is Jesus Christ. Then he has met the enmity, the evil, and has it underfoot; and there he stands in the heaven born liberty with which God has made him free, a free, self-governing individual, as God made him to be in the beginning, and as He makes him to be when He makes him again...

"Now do you see that this step we took today never can stop short of that? Is not that plain enough? Then, brethren, the thing for each one in this conference to do is to get there just as quickly as possible. Each one, then, must have set up in himself, and must be in himself, a local self-government, to the glory of God. But no man can ever do that, as I have said, except by the power of God in him; and no man can do that and remain a local self-governing man except he stands alone with God, apart from everyone else, and everything else, in the wide universe. Now that does not separate him from all other people. Our truest unity with other people is our whole loneliness with God. Our truest fellowship, our sincerest love, our tenderest sympathy, reaching out to all people is found only in standing absolutely alone, separate from all other things, with God...

"I say again, the step taken should never stop until every Seventh-day Adventist is brought face to face with God. And for what shall we be brought to face to face with God? To find our bearings, which we have been exhorted to find. And having found our bearings, then let God in Christ be the Head, and the grand Organizer." A.T. Jones, 1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.103.

[ClubV12]

I'll be glad to clairify the bolded statement joeb, here it is:

"Besides they need a closer connection with Christ, I think that answer avoids the real issues at stake here."

It is obvious we are all called to a closer connection with Christ. What Sky has presented here, and numerous times in the past, with many Sister White comments, certainly supports that concept. As do I. I am in total agreement with the above two posts or so from Sky on the issue of "standing alone before Christ" and not coming under "duress" or being forced to violate our conscience to "please man" in any way. I'm in total agreement with righteousness by faith and the need of our people to grasp and accept it. Total agreement that the church needs a reformation.

With a humble heart lets take a closer look at just what Sky is saying. If I'm wrong on any given point, my apologies, but this is my take on whats really going down here.

Sky presents several "allegations" that need careful review:

#1 is the idea that the official church is in apostasy, has been in apostasy since rejecting righteousness by faith in 1888. As a result the official Adventist church is no longer favored of God and is not led of God, since 1888, 1902 or 1903. Sometime around or after the "divine organizational structure" was replaced by "mans" idea of organization. Paramount in this allegation is the placement of a single man, A.G. Daniels, as "President". Sky remains illusive as to what form or organization should be institued instead, what reform he is calling for. Along "the order of the early church" is proposed, what ever that means in concrete detail. A "committee" of men to head up the GC instead of one? How many on this committee? What exactly IS their roll in leadership and how would that differ from what we have today? Many questions remain unanswered, other than by very general statements, such as, "we need to draw closer to Jesus".

Skys definition of the "church" is fundamentally different than the organized church we know today as "Seventh-day Adventists". In Sky's view the "church" today is composed of any and all those who accept the Lord in spirit and truth. What this means, in practical terms, is that you don't have to be a member of the Adventist church to be a member of "Gods church on earth". There IS some truth here, mixed with error, a most dangerous position.

To the above I most heartily disagree!!! While they are MEMBERS within the official Adventist church that are in apostasy, it is very wrong and inflamatory to suggest the official church itself is in apostasy. The inevitabale end result of this thinking is it's OK to be outside the church, to not support it in any way. To not pay tithe or offering to the official church.

To, in effect, come OUT of the official Adventist church, but it remains unclear as to what exactly that means? Drop your membership? Picket the official church? Not support it in any way, physically, monetarily or otherwise? What DOES this mean???? What off shoot group, if any, should one join, while "working for" those deceived members within the official church? Or, should each of us remain totally independant and ignore the counsel of the GC, the Union, the local church, the local Pastor, the Head Elder? Thats it OK, to be in disharmony with the local official brethren, because they are all in apostasy?

What IS this call to action supposed to MEAN in practical terms? IS the church in an apostic state? HAS God removed the official church from His grace and it is now "doomed" to failure?

A resounding NO, I say again, NO, the official Seventh-day Adventist church is not now and has not been in apostasy. STOP looking at "man", individuals may be in apostasy, some leadership may be in apostasy, but GOD is in control. It has NOT lost the favor of God. It is STILL being led of God. It WILL prevail and go through to the end, even though it appears about to fall. We have a duty to support in all ways Gods church on earth, the official Adventist church. With our tithes, offerings, good will and submit when ever possible to the counsel of the brethren. Even IF we are, for some reason, removed from membership. Even if the brethren have erred. We are STILL obligated to humble ourselves before God AND the brethren and CONTINUE to offer them our support. In tithes, offerings and in whatever way we can. It is not YOUR rights that are of concern, it is His. We are to lay aside OUR needs, wants, rights and trust in Him in all things.

At NO POINT are we to carve out our own path, the church WILL go through to the end. If you don't think so, you need to put your eyes back on Jesus and quit looking to yourself or to other men, or you will sink, like Peter did.

[joeb]

ClubV12,

You've mistaken my intent. I have no disagreement with what either Sky or you have posted. I just think the two of you have mistaken symptoms as the cause.

The symptoms are unwillingness to listen to and obey God. The cause is an unsanctified heart(a heart not fully surrendered to God). If we all had hearts fully surrendered to God all the symptoms, not listening to God's warnings and advice, would disappear.

Fully surrendering our hearts to God is righteousness by faith. To Ellen White justification was in no way separated from a full surrender of the heart to God.

[skyblue888]

Club you remind me of Saul before the veil was finally removed from before his eyes.

sky :)

[ClubV12]

Sky, you frighten me in you stubborness to see the truth.

Saul persecuted the church, as you yourself are doing.

[skyblue888]

Saul did not persecute the General Conference or the Union Conference or the Local Conference which was the official Seventh-day Adventist church of that day but the "little church" of which Christ was the Head. It was hard for him to kick against the pricks.

And let us not forget that Jesus was accused of being antagonistic to the "organized work," to the church that was claimed to be santioned by God and would always be exalted as the church of God. See C.O.L.294,304.

sky

[ClubV12]

Why DO you persecute the organized church Sky? What IS your agenda in proclaiming loudly and often the official church is in apostasy and is no longer led of God?

This is a very serious position to take. Surely you have something of substance to make your case with?

I have yet to see it, I see only division, discouragement and a call to abandon the church. Are you alone the mouth piece of God in this? Or, are there many others that support your view? Who are they? If it is TRUTH, bring it out in the open, that we may see and discuss it. There is to much hidden here, to much is cloaked in secrecy. The Spirit of the Lord does work this way, in secret.

[skyblue888]

Too much cloaked in secrecy! Harldy. Ask John and others and they will tell you that I have not done anything in secret. I have spoken openly.

sky

[ClubV12]

I've been reading your posts for months now, there is MUCH cloacked in secrecy!

Your constant theme is the Seventh-day Adventist organized church is in apostasy, that is no longer led of God. On THIS thread it has, inadvertantly, come to my attention you do not support the church in any way with tithes and offerings.

More to the point: I've asked you repeatedly, in many threads, if this is all true, and I DON'T BELIEVE IT IS, then WHAT should any given member (of the church) DO about it?

The ONLY answers you have ever provided is "draw closer to Jesus", certainly a message I won't argue with, but it's EVASIVE and has a spirit of secrecy.

Are you, or are you not, calling for people to abandon their support of the organized Seventh-day Adventist church? A call to quit paying tithe and offerings is now clear. What else? How far would you suggest any given member go? Remove their membership? Quit attending church? Where does all this lead Sky?

[skyblue888]

Was not Jesus alone at first? Were not the reformers alone at first? Besides, when was the majority ever on the side of truth? Did Jesus in 1903 sanction putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men as the new order of things? (T.M.481) He may have permitted it but He certainly did not sanction this order of things any more than He sanctioned Israel asking for a king. He allowed it but that was not His will for Israel. The present order of things is antagonistic to Gospel Order. I am not saying it. The Lord is. The present order of things which has been in place for more than a century has confirmed us in the track of Rome just as the Lord had warned. (T.M.362-3)

"The high-handed power that has been developed as though position has made men gods makes me afraid and ought to cause fear." T.M.361.

Is this not what the Lord says we should be frighten about? Is this not the truth some of us, in our stubbornness, refuse to see?

This is the present order of things. The Lord said, "There will be no material change until a decided movement is made to bring in a different order of things." T.M.360.

This has yet to happen. If it doesn't the Lord will have no choice but to bypass the "organized work" as He did when He walked among the Jews and He will finish the work with men and women of His own choosing, those who are not too wise or too learned to believe just what God says.

As to whether I will be one of these men or not, it is not for me to say. The Lord knows who are His.

All are called but few are chosen.

sky

[ClubV12]

I have researched and studied the issues you have presented AND the above quotes and more you have presented. There are solemn counsel. I have NOT COME to the same conclusions as you have on this matter.

I see NO CALL from Ellen White or the bible to abandon God's church on earth. I see ZERO evidence that suggests God is not leading this church. It remains the single object of His greatest affection.

I totally see NO reason to quit paying tithe, and this is a HUGE revelation that you do not. This alone is clear evidence you are not a member in good standing of the Seventh-day Adventist church, as you seem to imply on this forum.

I wonder Sky,,, WHO are you really? There is a deep mystery here, it's being held in secret. Why?

[skyblue888]

There are no mysteries on my part. I have never made the tithe or leaving the church an issue. It is of your own devising to create what is called a straw man.

You say you have researched what I have posted. Where are the posts where I made these things an issue. On the contrary I have stated my position clearly many a time. I believe with all of my heart that we are living in the time of the second and final call to the bidden ones of the parable of Matt.22 prior to the loud cry to the world as represented by the third call of the parable.

sky