what is the reason for our failure?

[skyblue888]

Mrs. White continues:

"According to the light that has been given to me--and just how it is to be accomplished I can not say, but this will not be done by intrusting responsibilities to men who have had light poured upon them year after year for the last ten of fifteen years, and yet have not heeded the light God has given them... The men that have long stood in positions of trust while disregarding the light that God has given, are not to be depended upon. God wants them to be removed." 1901 G.C. Bulletin, p.25-6.

Later on, A.G. Daniells stood and said:

"If I understand correctly, one leading feature of the instruction given us is the change of methods, the change of manner of doing, the way of preparing our business, the way of dealing with things; and not that men altogether are to be swept away. It is not a condemnation of men as men; but of methods and principles which must be swept away." p.28.

But the testimony was clear. God had said that these men that had long stood in positions of trust while disregarding the light that God had given, were not to be depended upon. He wanted them to be removed.

How interesting that brother Daniells, who was then the chairman of the General Conference Committee, interpreted that testimony to mean that not the men themselves but methods and principles were to be swept away.

It is true that human planning had to be swept away but God had also said that He wanted these men to be removed.

They never were removed!

sky

* Interestingly enough, brother Daniells, shortly after the 1901 Conference, assumed the presidency without the Constitution. One of the reformatory steps of the 1901 Constitution, as given by the Holy Spirit, was the elimination of that position. It was eliminated but brother Daniells assumed the position in 1902 as shown in the Review and Herald articles of that year and in 1903 he was voted president. The General Conference reverted back to the devisings of men. And that is why the Lord, in 1907, sent this solemn testimony: "The self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men. If you allow this to continue your faith will soon become extinct." T.M.481.

[skyblue888]

Bob, what year did Mrs. White make that statement you just quoted from Gospel Worker, p.490?

I just looked it up and it says that the first edition of Gospel Workers was published in 1892.

So then, this statement from the 1901 General Conference made by Mrs. White, still stands:

"You have no right to manage unless you manage in God's order. Are you under the control of God? Do you see your responsibility to God?... O, my very soul is drawn out in these things. Men who have not learned to submit themselves to the control and discipline of God are not competent to train the youth, to deal with human minds. It is just as much an impossibility for them to do this work as it would be for them to make a world. That these men should stand in a sacred place, to be as the voice of God to the people, as we once believed the General Conference to be,--that is past. What we want now is a reorganization. We need to begin at the foundation, and to build upon a different principle." E.G. White, 1901 G.C. Bulletin, p.25.

sky

[ClubV12]

What off shoot or cult do you represent Sky?

Are Seventh-day Adventists the only group of people you proselytize?

Simple questions, why not answer them and clear the air.

[ClubV12]

Again, this is entirely out of context and is meant to misslead.

"That these men should stand in a sacred place, to be as the voice of God to the people, as we once believed the General Conference to be,--that is past. What we want now is a reorganization. We want to begin at the foundation, and to build upon a different principle." 1888 Materials. 1745

To WHOM is this directed? To those engaged in training the youth who head up the PUBLISHING WORK.

...her comments continue and cover a wide range of people. A prophets job is to reprove and counsel. THESE remarks, made at the Geneneral Conference include a wide variety of people. Dr. Kellogg, those serving on committee's, Pastors, those involved in the publishing work, etc.

"Here are the very words that we want to bring into our life practice. The men that have long stood in positions of trust while disregarding the light that God has given, are not to be depended upon. God wants them to be removed. He wants a new life element brought into the publishing institutions. There are those who have stood as managers and yet have not managed after God’s order."

1888 Materials. 1745

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Has anyone considered the reason for the failure of SDA to change the world with it's message...

...Was because there was no Divine commision issued to that body in the first place?

...At some point someone must ask themselves that question.

SDAs were never taught of God that the SDA church would change the world with its message. That has never been our goal. The world is going to get worse, not better. Our goal as a church is to preach the truth for those who will accept it, to help prepare a people for Christ's return, but it has never been with the understanding that it will cause the world to become a better place.

That's what the O.P. is all about....

...That the world has not been stirred by the tri-fold message.

...What does it mean if not "change" when it says the world has not been stirred"?

[ClubV12]

This quote from Volume NINE of the Testimonies was written SEVERAL YEARS AFTER 1901. Sometime between 1904 and 1909.

"But when, in a General Conference, the judgment of the brethren assembled from all parts of the field, is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be stubbornly maintained, but surrendered. Never should a laborer regard as a virtue the persistent maintenance of his position of independence, contrary to the decision of the general body . . . . God has ordained that the representatives of His church from all parts of the earth, when assembled in a General Conference, shall have authority. The error that some are in danger of committing, is in giving to the mind and judgment of one man, or of a small group of men, the full measure of authority and influence that God has vested in His church, in the judgment and voice of the General Conference assembled to plan for the prosperity and advancement of His work." Testimonies, Vol. 9, pp. 260, 261

HOW will we reconcile the 1901 statement and the later 1904 statement? You must search the Testimonies which will explain themselves, just as you must search the bible which will explain itself.

Virtually everything SKY has posted on this thread is OUT OF CONTEXT!!!

[skyblue888]

Vol.9 of the Testimonies was published in 1948.

The statements found on p.260,261 can also be found in Gospel Workers published in 1892 that Bob just quoted a while ago from p.490.

What is obvious enough here is that in 1948 the leaders chose to dwell upon the statements of 1892 rather than those of 1901 and for good reasons!

sky

[ClubV12]

Thats a good point Sky, what Ellen White said about the GC was just as TRUE in 1892 as it was in 1904.

That the GC was, and remains, "the voice of God", before AND after 1901! Of course, the quote you referrence in 1901 was never about the GC, it was about the PUBLISHING WORK and a variety of other people.

One major thing that changed around this time (1901 or so) was the number of men in leadership position from the GC down. There were only 2 or 3 men initially who were not readily available due to the explosive growth of the church during that time frame. They could not handle the load of making decisions within a reasonable time frame. Many more people were added as a result, so that no "one man" would be responsible and decisions could be made quicker at lower levels. Not only Conference levels in the USA but world wide as the local groups saw and responded to the needs of the church.

The structure has been working well ever since. Or have you been so stuck on 1888 you didn't notice?

[John317]

...That the world has not been stirred by the tri-fold message.

...What does it mean if not "change" when it says the world has not been stirred"?

What does the book of Revelation teach, especially in chapters 13 to 19? Do we see where it says all the world will be converted and be saved?

On the contrary, it says the whole world wonders after the beast and receives the mark of the beast. According to Bible prophecy, only a "remnant" will be saved. It will be millions of people, but compared to the billions of people on earth, even 25 million people is a small number.

The true gospel of Christ will never be a popular message. If anyone is expecting the whole world to be "stirred" by the Three Angels' Messages, they're misreading prophecy. Actually, when the truth is preached and practiced, it will bring about persecution and Satan will inspire most people to hate it and hate those who are teaching it.

[skyblue888]

The following testimony from Special Testimonies, Series B, No.10 (1909) appears in Testimonies to Ministers, 481.

"God declares, 'I will be glorified in My people;' but the self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men. If you allow this to continue, your faith will soon become extinct.. He asks that a change be made."

Was the situation rectified after 1909? How could the voice of the General Conference in 1909 be the voice of God if He was put aside?

sky

[ClubV12]

Whew, do I have to look up that one to get the context as well? Your like the Ever Ready Bunny with your endless out of context posts and threads.

To answer your question: Yes, it was most definitely rectified after 1909. Welcome to 2011, the Seventh-day Adventist church, still here!

Again, are you asking Seventh-day Adventist to abandon their church and look to YOUR group as their General Conference?

Over 16 million baptized members in the world. 6th largest international church in the world. Less than 10% of Adventists live in the USA. This, since the early 1900's, hardly "extinguished"!! Never the less, I take her counsel seriously, just as seriously as they did then, I do so now.

[joeb]

Whew, do I have to look up that one to get the context as well? Your like the Ever Ready Bunny with your endless out of context posts and threads.

To answer your question: Yes, it was most definitely rectified after 1909. Welcome to 2011, the Seventh-day Adventist church, still here!

Again, are you asking Seventh-day Adventist to abandon their church and look to YOUR group as their General Conference?

[Gordon1]

What off shoot or cult do you represent Sky?

This same question has been posed to Protestants for centuries, usually when they dug into the Bible & church history. Persecution often followed.

Paul was "a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes." Acts 24:5.

Jesus was viewed the same, Luther too. Ellen White was given her Catholic (SDA) Procession dream (1T 578) for daring to 'speak against our holy order'.

The established church majority has never been right, notwithstanding your sincere zeal Ernie.

[SivartM]

The established church majority has never been right

I don't know why I didn't see it before. I can only be really, really right if I join a very small and obscure sect! The obvious solution is to start my own religion. That's about as right as I can get. I'm sure you'll all persecute me for my firm stand, but fortunately that also proves that I'm right.

[Igakusei]

I don't know why I didn't see it before. I can only be really, really right if I join a very small and obscure sect! The obvious solution is to start my own religion. That's about as right as I can get. I'm sure you'll all persecute me for my firm stand, but fortunately that also proves that I'm right.

Reminds me of this argument:

[ClubV12]

Consider the evidence Gordon, this is very serious.

Sky is not a Seventh-day Adventist. He is making an open call for Seventh-day Adventists to leave the church, stop paying tithe, denounce their membership and remove all their support from the church. Why? Because it's been in apostasy since 1888. That as a result it has not been led of God since 1888.

In your sincere zeal, Gordon,,,,

Are you prepared to renounce your Seventh-day Adventist membership and join Skys off shoot movement? Or will you take a stand for truth and support God's church on earth, the SINGLE object of His supreme affection, His chosen remnant people, the Seventh-day Adventist church?

"Enfeebled and defective as it may appear, the church is the one object upon which God bestows in a special sense His supreme regard. It is the theater of His grace, in which He delights to reveal His power to transform hearts."

Conflict of the Ages Series, Volume 4; Acts of the Apostles (12).

[ClubV12]

"Beware of those who arise with a great burden to denounce the church. The chosen ones who are standing and breasting the storm of opposition from the world, and are uplifting the downtrodden commandments of God to exalt them as holy and honorable, are indeed the light of the world. . . .

I tell you, my brethren, the Lord has an organized body through whom He will work. There may be more than a score of Judases among them, there may be a rash Peter who will under circumstances of trial deny his Lord. There may be persons represented by John whom Jesus loved, but he may have a zeal that would destroy men’s lives by calling down fire from heaven upon them to revenge an insult to Christ and the truth. But the great Teacher seeks to give lessons of instruction to correct these existing evils. He is doing the same today with His church. He is pointing out their dangers. He is presenting before them the Laodicean message." 3SM 17

This is a solemn message, applicable to this thread:

"Beware of those who arise with a great burden to denounce the church."

[Gustave]

What does the book of Revelation teach, especially in chapters 13 to 19? Do we see where it says all the world will be converted and be saved?

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

What off shoot or cult do you represent Sky?

This same question has been posed to Protestants for centuries, usually when they dug into the Bible & church history. Persecution often followed.

Paul was "a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes." Acts 24:5.

Jesus was viewed the same, Luther too. Ellen White was given her Catholic (SDA) Procession dream (1T 578) for daring to 'speak against our holy order'.

The established church majority has never been right, notwithstanding your sincere zeal Ernie.

Ernie!!! :)

[cheddar]

Ernie!!!

Who's Ernie? a friend of Bert!

[Gordon1]

More importantly,

Who is the Church?

[ClubV12]

Sister White is very clear on "who" is the church. She consistently refers to it as the organized body of believers and talks about the responsibility of BAPTIZED MEMBERS. Without a doubt, when Sister White says "church" she is talking about the organized Seventh-day Adventist church.

Beyond that there are certainly believers of other folds whom God loves that are not members of the Seventh-day Adventist church, but do comprise a larger definition. He has many sheep that are not of this fold.

The question is:

Under what circumstances are you justified fighting against the organized church in such a way as to remove your membership, quit paying tithe and remove all support from the church? Has this been justified since 1888, as Sky suggests in his various threads on this point? Is it justified now?

[skyblue888]

"The church is God's fortress, His city of refuge, which He holds in a revolted world... From the beginning, faithful souls have constituted the church on earth." A.A.11.

"The soul that is yielded to Christ becomes His own fortress, which He holds in a revolted world, and He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own." D.A.324.

[ClubV12]

Out of CONTEXT Sky, and you KNOW THAT.

"Beware of those who arise with a great burden to denounce the church."

Who is the church of which Ellen White speaks?

"I tell you, my brethren, the Lord has an organized body through whom He will work. There may be more than a score of Judases among them, there may be a rash Peter who will under circumstances of trial deny his Lord. There may be persons represented by John whom Jesus loved, but he may have a zeal that would destroy men’s lives by calling down fire from heaven upon them to revenge an insult to Christ and the truth. But the great Teacher seeks to give lessons of instruction to correct these existing evils. He is doing the same today with His church. He is pointing out their dangers. He is presenting before them the Laodicean message." 3SM 17

[skyblue888]

"The church is God's fortress, His city of refuge, which He holds in a revolted world... From the beginning, faithful souls have constituted the church on earth." A.A.11.

"The soul that is yielded to Christ becomes His own fortress, which He holds in a revolted world, and He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own." D.A.324.

"The church of Christ, every individual disciple of the Master, is heaven's appointed channel for the revelation of God to man." Mount of Blessing, 40.

sky