what is the reason for our failure?

[ClubV12]

No you haven't made tithe or leaving the church a direct issus.

Seven principles of those who work outside the regular lines:

1. They accept the challenge to minister as self-supporting missionaries.

2. They are willing to sacrifice.

3. They unite their efforts with the church.

4. They help carry God’s last message to the world.

5. They recognize and respect the church.

6. They will be well-balanced in principles and lifestyle.

7. They will bring all the tithes into God’s appointed “storehouse.”

Notice, they pay TITHE and SUPPORT the church.

Sky, I still don't know WHAT kind of call you are making to the members of the church. WHAT IS IT you are suggesting, implying, leaning toward that people should do?

Your position is FAR outside any acceptable norm of Adventism. It's even outside "self supporting" work.

What are we left to conclude who you REALLY represent?

[skyblue888]

Club, do not these questions you keep asking me on a personal level reminiscent of the questions the Pharisees asked both John the Baptist and Jesus?

Did not Jesus' position seem to be FAR outside any acceptable norm of Judaism? Did not every one of the reformers seem to be FAR outside any acceptable norm of the church of the Middle Ages? Did not the position of Waggoner and Jones seem FAR outside any acceptable norm of Adventism?

[ClubV12]

Jesus didn't go around condeming the church of His time. He did not openly make a call for folks to leave the church, quit giving offerings or tithe or any way remove their support. He loved the church, as corrupt as it might have been. He attended and taught in the synagoge. He SUPPORTED the church in all ways.

You oppose the church. Why? If you have something to offer, something better than the organized Seventh-day Adventist church, speak up! Quit hiding it. The general tone of your posts, on this and many other threads, CLEARLY points to anyone remaining with the organized church as "lost". You've all but said that to me on many occasions, repeated again in this thread! That BECAUSE I support the church I am blind and deceived.

These are serious charges Sky, what is your true mission here? It seems to be divide and conquer under the guise of "draw closer to Jesus". I am very much reminded of how the path of truth lays so close to the path or error.

But MY eyes have been opened Sky, you ARE an imposter of some sort. You are NOT the Seventh-day Adventist you claim to be. Who are you Sky? Who do you really represent?

The "Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement"? Branch Davidian? Some other off shoot group? An independant, beholding to no one? Who are you Sky? And I ask these questions in a heart felt way, it is not easy to do, but the character of Gods church is at stake here.

Jesus supported the seven principles of self supporting work during His ministry.

[ClubV12]

I hate to leave, but I have to run a few errands before Sabbath.

[skyblue888]

To be honest with you Club, ur last posts are reminiscent of the spirit of the inquisition! Sad to say but it's true.

[ClubV12]

...back from my errands...

Sky, you have made some serious allegations against the organized Seventh-day Adventist church, whilst, in my opinion, portraying yourself as a member of the same.

This is not an inquisition as you call it, it is a simple question. By what authority do you condem and call for others to condem and cease support of the official Seventh-day Adventist church?

The rhetoric you employ could just as easily be used by any number of disgruntled Adventists, non-members, off shoots, fanatics and radicals. Which is not to say you are any of the above, but your rhetoric is very similiar. What AM I supposed to think?

The members of this church deserve to know, as do the members of this forum.

And you know, it doesn't make any difference to me WHO you are or WHAT you stand for on a personal level. I will not loose any respect or judge you for your position.

[skyblue888]

This discussion is not about me. It is about the Lord's own assessment of what has been developing over the years within our ranks. Jesus had said to His disciples:

"The princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you." Matt.20:25.

Now notice this testimony: "The high-handed power that has been developed as though position has made men gods makes me afraid and ought to cause fear. This lording it over God's heritage is a curse wherever and by whomsoever it is exercised." T.M.361.

This is what the Lord Himself said was to be feared.

Can we not see why the Lord has been calling for a change, for a reorganisation? In the very year of 1903 the Lord sent a testimony which said that as a people we had "become so much like the world that no difference could be seen." E.G. White, 7 B.C.959. In 1907 another testimony was sent warning that "The self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men," "to bring men under the control of men." (T.M.366,481)

This "spirit of domination" (T.M.362) is the common order of things in our churches. The Lord sent another warning, saying "There will be no material change until a decided movement is made to bring in a different order of things." T.M.360.

This has yet to happen. If it doesn't the Lord will have no choice but to bypass the "common order of things" as He did when He walked among the Jews and He will finish the work with men and women of His own choosing, those who are not too wise or too learned to believe just what God says.

I stand by these satatements. This has nothing to do with me personally except as I am bringing them to our attention.

sky

[ClubV12]

You are taking these quotes out of context Sky, THIS is where the danger you present lays.

Fundamental to this discussion is WHAT, WHO IS the "church"?

"God has invested His church with special authority and power which no one can be justified in disregarding and despising, for in so doing he despises the voice of God." 3T 417

"God has bestowed the highest power under heaven upon His church. It is the voice of God in His united people in church capacity which is to be respected." 3T 451

"You will take passages in the Testimonies that speak of the close of probation, of the shaking among God’s people, and you will talk of a coming out from this people of a purer, holier people that will arise. Now all this pleases the enemy. . . . Should many accept the views you advance, and talk and act upon them, we would see one of the greatest fanatical excitements that has ever been witnessed among Seventh-day Adventists. This is what Satan wants.--1SM 179

THIS is the "fanatical movement" your threads and posts inspire Sky. This is NOT the spirit of the Lord. Look at the PRINCIPLES of self supporting workers I've listed. They are SEPARATE and yet REMAIN a part of God's church on earth. The organized Seventh-day Adventist church.

At SOME POINT in the future the faithful will have to meet in home churches, or in the woods, or in hiding. That time has not yet come! To abandon the church is apostasy, to call others to do that is fanaticism in it's most dangerous form.

[ClubV12]

To the law and to the testimony, or there is no light in them.

"I tell you, my brethren, the Lord has an organized body through whom He will work. . . . When anyone is drawing apart from the organized body of God’s commandment-keeping people, when he begins to weigh the church in his human scales and begins to pronounce judgment against them, then you may know that God is not leading him. He is on the wrong track." 3SM 17, 18

"...the organized body of God’s commandment-keeping people..."

This is a very clear definition of what comprises the "church".

[12tribes]

To the law and to the testimony, or there is no light in them.

"I tell you, my brethren, the Lord has an organized body through whom He will work. . . . When anyone is drawing apart from the organized body of God’s commandment-keeping people, when he begins to weigh the church in his human scales and begins to pronounce judgment against them, then you may know that God is not leading him. He is on the wrong track." 3SM 17, 18

"...the organized body of God’s commandment-keeping people..."

This is a very clear definition of what comprises the "church".

The early church was also an organized body

[skyblue888]

The early church was also an organized body

12tribes

______________

Yes, exatly the Early Church was organized in Christ. Its members were actuated by the Head. The Early Church was obeying Christ as its Head. It was not controlled by man until the spirit of domination, the spirit of pre-eminence, the mystery of iniquity, began to creep into the church and this led to the establishment of the papal power.

The book Testimoinies to Ministers clearly shows that this mystery of iniquity has been at work within our ranks for more than a century, that we were following in the track of Rome. (T.M.362,363)

sky

[John317]

...the Early Church was organized in Christ. Its members were actuated by the Head. The Early Church was obeying Christ as its Head.

sky, the Christians of the early church had human leaders. Every member of the church was not merely doing their own thing. The church needs leaders who make decisions. Otherwise it's every person for himself, which is nothing but mass confusion. Someone has to decide who is going to give the sermon for the day and who is going to be in charge of teaching the Sabbath school classes, etc.

I think you misunderstand what Ellen White means when she talks against the church president. You're evidently taking it to mean she was opposed to the church having any president at all. I believe she is opposed to the president acting like a king, not to the office of president per se. Her husband was GC president for years, yet she never condemned him for it or suggested that he was doing wrong simply by being president.

Merely by having leaders or by having presidents of conferences and of the GC doesn't prevent Christ from being Head of the church.

[ClubV12]

"I tell you, my brethren, the Lord has an organized body through whom He will work. . . . When anyone is drawing apart from the organized body of God’s commandment-keeping people, when he begins to weigh the church in his human scales and begins to pronounce judgment against them, then you may know that God is not leading him. He is on the wrong track." 3SM 17, 18

The counsel is plain and clear, Sister White is making direct referrence to todays organized Seventh-day Adventist church. The church of the pioneers, the church they labored to build, the church she supported in every way (including tithe). That those who begin to "pronounce judgment against them" we may know that God is not leading them. That they are on the wrong track.

Your delusion, Sky, on this issue is so deep you may never find your way back to the path. Satan is well pleased with your efforts to divide God's church.

I wonder if 12Tribes even understands the important and serious issues Sky presents on this thread? Are you, 12Tribes, ready to remove your membership from the organized Seventh-day Adventist church? Will you quit paying tithe and offerings to same? Will you encourage others to come out? Are you willing to join with Sky in setting up your version of what you think is God's church on earth?

Deadly serious issues indeed...

"Should many accept the views you advance, and talk and act upon them, we would see one of the greatest fanatical excitements that has ever been witnessed among Seventh-day Adventists. This is what Satan wants." SM 179

[skyblue888]

"I tell you, my brethren, the Lord has an organized body through whom He will work. . . . When anyone is drawing apart from the organized body of God’s commandment-keeping people, when he begins to weigh the church in his human scales and begins to pronounce judgment against them, then you may know that God is not leading him. He is on the wrong track." 3SM 17, 18

____________________

"God has an organized body through whom He will work."

To be sure. Those who are Christ's are the members of His body and they are actuated by the Head and they refuse to be controlled by man. Christ is their grand Organizer and He intends that no authority shall be known in them but His own. (D.A.324}

"When anyone is drawing apart from the organized body of God’s commandment-keeping people, when he begins to weigh the church in his human scales and begins to pronounce judgment against them, then you may know that God is not leading him. He is on the wrong track."

Prove that I am weighing the church in my human scales. I have not merely expressed an opinion, I have mainly quoted from the book Testimonies to Ministers and from the 1901 and 1903 General Conference Bulletins, things that concern the church organization.

So please, reader, do not be deceived by those who picture me as an impostor or one who is on the wrong track when the Lord Himself stated that the leadership of this church were following in the track of Rome. See T.M.362,363.

The Lord solemnly warned us that "There will be no material change until a decided movement is made to bring in a different order of things." T.M.360.

At the 1901 General Conference, Mrs. White made this statement:

"Many of you have been educating yourselves to talk with human beings instead of talking to God. There are those here that have traditions, and they stand just as the Pharisees stood. But what we want is God's traditions. We want the living principles of Heaven brought into our lives." 1901 G.C. Bulletin, p.24.

Is is still the same today if not worse, much worse.

sky

[skyblue888]

"God has invested His church with special authority and power which no one can be justified in disregarding and despising, for in so doing he despises the voice of God." 3T 417

"God has bestowed the highest power under heaven upon His church. It is the voice of God in His united people in church capacity which is to be respected." 3T 451

Quoted by ClubV12

_________________

These statements were made in 1875.

But at the 1901 General Conference Mrs. White gave a completely different testimony:

"You have no right to manage unless you manage in God's order. Are you under the control of God? Do you see your responsibility to God?... O, my very soul is drawn out in these things. Men who have not learned to submit themselves to the control and discipline of God are not competent to train the youth, to deal with human minds. It is just as much an impossibility for them to do this work as it would be for them to make a world. That these men should stand in a sacred place, to be as the voice of God to the people, as we once believed the General Conference to be,--that is past. What we want now is a reorganization. We need to beging at the foundation, and to build upon a different principle." E.G. White, 1901 G.C. Bulletin, p.25.

""Yet we hear that the voice of the General Conference is the voice of God. Every time I have heard this, I have thought it was almost blasphemy. The voice of the Conference ought to be the voice of God, but it is not." Manuscript 37, p.8 (April, 1901)

Especially that at the General Conference of 1903, the reformatory steps given by the Spirit of God at the 1901 Conference were annihilated, reversed, and in 1907 the Lord had this to say:

"The self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men. If you allow this to continue your faith will soon become extinct." T.M.481.

There has been no change since this statement was made except for the worse and for that reason how could the General Conference in session be regarded as the voice of God to the people today?

sky

[ClubV12]

You have consistently used these Ellen White quotes in a deceiving way outside their context. I will not argue this point with you Sky. You agenda has been made plain in this thread. You are calling on people to abandon the Seventh-day Adventist church and stop supporting it in any way. You have declared God's church on earth to be in apostasy and that it is no longer led of God.

I don't know who you are or what group you represent, but your not a Seventh-day Adventist Sky, your an imposter. Sincere and sincerely mistaken.

For the readers why don't state your true position clearly?

Are you a baptized member in good standing with the organized Seventh-day Adventist church? Do you support the church with tithes and offerings and in any other way? Are you a member of an organization or group that holds themselves apart from the Seventh-day Adventist church?

I am glad to say I am a member of Gods church on earth, the single object of His supreme affection, the organized Seventh-day Adventist church. The same church Sister White is referring to, NOT some "off shoot" or loosely organized group in a "home church". I support the organized church in every way. I do not look to this church, the Pastor or it's leaders for my salvation, I look to Jesus, while I support the members of His church. I, like Daniel, account myself among the members of this church for better or for worse.

[ClubV12]

This quote in particular, is entirely out of context and meant to deceive the readers of this forum!

"Yet we hear that the voice of the General Conference is the voice of God. Every time I have heard this, I have thought it was almost blasphemy. The voice of the Conference ought to be the voice of God, but it is not." Manuscript 37, p.8 (April, 1901)

[skyblue888]

Oh really? How?

Is that one out of context too?

"You have no right to manage unless you manage in God's order. Are you under the control of God? Do you see your responsibility to God?... O, my very soul is drawn out in these things. Men who have not learned to submit themselves to the control and discipline of God are not competent to train the youth, to deal with human minds. It is just as much an impossibility for them to do this work as it would be for them to make a world. That these men should stand in a sacred place, to be as the voice of God to the people, as we once believed the General Conference to be,--that is past. What we want now is a reorganization. We need to beging at the foundation, and to build upon a different principle." E.G. White, 1901 G.C. Bulletin, p.25.

[Gustave]

Has anyone considered the reason for the failure of SDA to change the world with it's message...

...Was because there was no Divine commision issued to that body in the first place?

...At some point someone must ask themselves that question.

[ClubV12]

This thread and the others like it will inevitably lead some to a fanatical position, just as the prophet said would happen when we pull away from the church. The ORGANIZED official body of believers Seventh-day Adventist church the prophet makes referrence to.

The balance has been lost, the Sister White quotes are out of context, confusion reigns.

[Gustave]

This thread and the others like it will inevitably lead some to a fanatical position, just as the prophet said would happen when we pull away from the church. The ORGANIZED official body of believers Seventh-day Adventist church the prophet makes referrence to.

The balance has been lost, the Sister White quotes are out of context, confusion reigns.

When Sister White's quotes are out of context confusion reigns within the denomination....

...That almost sounds like it takes Ellen White to hold the SDA group together.

[John317]

...That almost sounds like it takes Ellen White to hold the SDA group together.

Without Ellen White's prophetic ministry, there would be no SDA church, and those who reject her ministry either fall out or accept false teachings.

[John317]

Has anyone considered the reason for the failure of SDA to change the world with it's message...

...Was because there was no Divine commision issued to that body in the first place?

...At some point someone must ask themselves that question.

SDAs were never taught of God that the SDA church would change the world with its message. That has never been our goal. The world is going to get worse, not better. Our goal as a church is to preach the truth for those who will accept it, to help prepare a people for Christ's return, but it has never been with the understanding that it will cause the world to become a better place.

[skyblue888]

Here is an interesting excerpt from the 1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.23.

The Chair: The Conference is now formally opened. What is your pleasure? At this juncture Sister E.G. White, who was present, came forward, and spoke as follows:

"I feel a special interest in the movements and decisions that shall be made at this Conference regarding the things that should have been done years ago, and especially ten years ago, when we were assembled in Conference, and the Spirit and power of God came into our meeting, testifying that God was ready to work for this people if they would come into working order. The brethren assented to the light God had given, but there were those connected with our institutions, especially with the Review and Herald Office and the Conference, who brought in elements of unbelief, so that the light that was given was not acted upon. It was assented to but no special change was made to bring about a condition of things that the power of God could be revealed among His people...

Year after year the same acknowledgment was made, but the principles which exalt a people were not woven into the work. God gave them clear light as to what they should do, and what they should not do, but they departed from that light, and it is a marvel to me that we stand in as much prosperity as we do to-day. It is because of the great mercy of our God, not because of our righteousness, but that His name should not be dishonored in the world."

To be continued

sky

[BobRyan]

This quote in particular, is entirely out of context and meant to deceive the readers of this forum!

"Yet we hear that the voice of the General Conference is the voice of God. Every time I have heard this, I have thought it was almost blasphemy. The voice of the Conference ought to be the voice of God, but it is not." Manuscript 37, p.8 (April, 1901)