This Thing Of Error.

[Gibs]

First I'm going to past a quote from EGW on this subject and then a comment of my own will follow.

"There is no nook or corner of the world, however secluded, where error and sin have not found their way. Error is often presented in a specious garb, so that it requires more than human wisdom to detect the falsehood under the pretension of truth. If error was never mingled with truth, it would not be so subtle in its influence upon the mind. If error stood forth alone in its true, hideous form, souls would not be deceived. But there are many who see attractions in error, and will eagerly feast upon it, although it poisons the mind. Error always injures the soul and deforms the character. Error may, at first sight, appear plausible, but its tendency is to corrupt the heart, and to ensnare its victims. We often hear it stated that it matters not what one believes if his life is only right. But the life is molded by the faith. If light and truth, are within our reach, and we neglect to improve the privilege of hearing and seeing the truth, we virtually reject it, and choose darkness rather than light. Said Christ to the Jews, "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." {RH, December 2, 1875 par. 3}

Mankind has always been taken in by error and it gets in no matter what as man is not careful enough to prove all things against His Word and yes no church in it's best reformed beginning ever was free from all error. Reformation has to be a Continual ling growing thing but always soon dies out as error always takes it's place faster and a creed is set up and the error stays and reformation is ended. Can you not see this has happened in every church man has started and even the one Christ and the disciples started.

Error is a destroyer, so should we go where error is being taught if it cannot be dispelled? This is the question I want answered.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[BobRyan]

God alone is "free of all error". Our doctrines are free of error - but only because they come from God through the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gerr]

If you are referring to "errors" in the church, which one?

EGW also had this to say:

We must go no faster than we can take those with us whose consciences and intellects are convinced of the truths we advocate. We must meet the people where they are. Some of us have been many years in arriving at our present position in health reform. It is slow work to obtain a reform in diet. We have powerful appetites to meet; for the world is given to gluttony. If we should allow the people as much time as we have required to come up to the present advanced state in reform, we would be very patient with them, and allow them to

21

advance step by step, as we have done, until their feet are firmly established upon the health reform platform. But we should be very cautious not to advance too fast, lest we be obliged to retrace our steps. In reforms we would better come one step short of the mark than to go one step beyond it. And if there is error at all, let it be on the side next to the people. {3T 20.3}

Caleb and Joshua did not leave the Israelite camp because their rebellion and errors.

[Neil D]

First I'm going to past a quote from EGW on this subject and then a comment of my own will follow.

"There is no nook or corner of the world, however secluded, where error and sin have not found their way. Error is often presented in a specious garb, so that it requires more than human wisdom to detect the falsehood under the pretension of truth. " {RH, December 2, 1875 par. 3}

Mankind has always been taken in by error and it gets in no matter what as man is not careful enough to prove all things against His Word and yes no church in it's best reformed beginning ever was free from all error.

So, where is the error in your post? If error is everywhere, then it is in your thinking also...Where is it?

My point is that if we concentrate upon looking for error, we will find it....but we will take our eyes off the One who leads us in this world. Maintain that fellowship, and chuck the "looking" for errors...

[Gibs]

[Gibs]

If you are referring to "errors" in the church, which one?

EGW also had this to say:

We must go no faster than we can take those with us whose consciences and intellects are convinced of the truths we advocate. We must meet the people where they are. Some of us have been many years in arriving at our present position in health reform. It is slow work to obtain a reform in diet. We have powerful appetites to meet; for the world is given to gluttony. If we should allow the people as much time as we have required to come up to the present advanced state in reform, we would be very patient with them, and allow them to

21

advance step by step, as we have done, until their feet are firmly established upon the health reform platform. But we should be very cautious not to advance too fast, lest we be obliged to retrace our steps. In reforms we would better come one step short of the mark than to go one step beyond it. And if there is error at all, let it be on the side next to the people. {3T 20.3}

Caleb and Joshua did not leave the Israelite camp because their rebellion and errors.

Gerry,

One don't really know how bitter it can get toward you when you expose some teaching as error until you have done it. I have on quite a few and with each one the "ire fire" got stronger. Most don't see any error as they don't know the Word of God. They sit complacent trusting whatever is being preached is the true gospel and on other subjects the truth.

EGW Quote,

Point after point of truth should be investigated; for there is no limitation to the truth of God, and in its study a most lively interest should be felt by both teachers and pupils, that they may know what God hath said. For years the voice of God has been saying to us, "Agitate, agitate, agitate." Study every point of truth, that you may know for yourselves what is truth in distinction from error. Let students search for themselves, that they may know the deep things of God. Let this work be done in the Spirit of Christ. Put no restriction upon the students. {CSW 36.2}

In searching the Scriptures there is need of great humility of mind and contrition of heart, of seeking earnestly unto God. Those who come in a lowly spirit, seeking for truth, will be aided in their search by the angels of God.--TSS 55, 56. {CSW 37.1}

But Gerry, I wanted to know, should we go where error is being forced upon as when it can not be dispelled.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

God alone is "free of all error". Our doctrines are free of error - but only because they come from God through the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

Hi Bob,

I don't agree that the doctrines are free from error. One has changed that is most important. Saved from sin and committing sin - to - saved from sin and in continuing in sin. When Paul stated,

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

But I wanted to know if we should continue to go where error is being forced home and you cannot dispell it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Point of clarification:

Gib says,

"But Gerry, I wanted to know, should we go where error is being forced upon as when it can not be dispelled."

The "error that is being forced upon him" comes from the Seventh-day Adventist church. What he is saying in this thread is that because the Adventist church is in error, we should leave the church, as he has done.

Now, can we dispense with the "mystery" and deal with the real agenda?

IS the Adventist church in error? Is it in apostasy? If it is, should we leave it and remove our membership?

No hiding Gibs, tell the straight truth.

Bonus question, what IS the church? Where two or three are gathered? Is THAT Gods church on earth?

[ClubV12]

Gib says,

"Saved from sin and committing sin - to - saved from sin and in continuing in sin."

Can you show where what you allege is an official doctrine of the Seventh-day Adventist church? Or is it your opinion only?

[Gibs]

Point of clarification:

Gib says,

"But Gerry, I wanted to know, should we go where error is being forced upon as when it can not be dispelled."

The "error that is being forced upon him" comes from the Seventh-day Adventist church. What he is saying in this thread is that because the Adventist church is in error, we should leave the church, as he has done.

Now, can we dispense with the "mystery" and deal with the real agenda?

IS the Adventist church in error? Is it in apostasy? If it is, should we leave it and remove our membership?

No hiding Gibs, tell the straight truth.

Bonus question, what IS the church? Where two or three are gathered? Is THAT Gods church on earth?

But first Clubv12 you still didn't answer the question, "should we go where error is being taught"?

And yes I'll answer your question, Yes error was trying to be forced upon me in the SDA church and hey not only me.

Bonus question answer, Yes the true Church is where two or three are gathered in His mame and He is present in the midst therof. But again He must be worshipped in Spirit and Truth and the scripture says "MUST".

Allow EGW to speak here too.

"God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is the people who love God and keep His commandments. "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:20). Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ's church, for the presence of the High and Holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church. {UL 315.5}

Where two or three are present who love and obey the commandments of God, Jesus there presides, let it be in the desolate place of the earth, in the wilderness, in the city enclosed in prison walls. The glory of God has penetrated the prison walls, flooding with glorious beams of heavenly light the darkest dungeon. His saints may suffer, but their sufferings will, like the apostles of old, spread their faith and win souls to Christ and glorify His holy name. The bitterest opposition expressed by those who hate God's great moral standard of righteousness should not and will not shake the steadfast soul who trusts fully in God. . . . {UL 315.6}

They that will be doers of the word are building securely, and the tempest and storm of persecution will not shake their foundation, because their souls are rooted to the eternal Rock".--Letter 108, Oct. 28, 1886,

A church can fall out from being His Church don't you see and it has happened many times in past history. Error coming in is the cause of it's failing. Here's that "MUST".

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[phkrause]

If I'm not mistaken, EGW says somewhere in her writings that this church, and I'm guessing she means the SDA church, would go on to the end. So if error is being taught, its not the SDA church, but maybe some within are trying to teach error.

[Gibs]

If I'm not mistaken, EGW says somewhere in her writings that this church, and I'm guessing she means the SDA church, would go on to the end. So if error is being taught, its not the SDA church, but maybe some within are trying to teach error.

pkrause,

The remnant always comes out of any apostasies and EGW made it clear in my comment before this one what the church is.

There are many in the SDA church teaching error, not some and the problem it's high echelon I'm sorry to say.

pkrause, I think the following has happened without doubt. EGW speaks,

"I was shown the people of God, and saw them mightily shaken. Some, with strong faith and agonizing cries, were pleading with God. {CCh 338.3}

Some, I saw, did not participate in this work of agonizing and pleading. They seemed indifferent and careless. They were not resisting the darkness around them, and it shut them in like a thick cloud. The angels of God left these, and I saw them hastening to the assistance of those who were struggling with all their energies to resist the evil angels, and trying to help themselves by calling upon God with perseverance. But the angels left those who made no effort to help themselves, and I lost sight of them. As the praying ones continued their earnest cries, a ray of light from Jesus would at times come to them, to encourage their hearts, and light up their countenances. {CCh 338.4}

I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen, and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this will cause a shaking among God's people. The testimony of the True Witness has not been half heeded. The solemn testimony upon which the destiny of the church hangs has been lightly esteemed, if not entirely disregarded. This testimony must work deep repentance, and all that truly receive it will obey it and be purified. {CCh 338.5}

The remnant is invisible now to most and stands on the truth and with Christ and His Word.

I could say a lot more but if the Lord gives me strength I will keep piece by piece putting it out here in posts and comments. If I miss a comment any want answered by me drop me a PM.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

I don't agree that the doctrines are free from error. One has changed that is most important. Saved from sin and committing sin - to - saved from sin and in continuing in sin. When Paul stated,

I've been an Adventist for several decades. I've never heard or read that the Church officially holds the doctrine that one can LIVE in sin and still be in a state of salvation! Are you of the persuasion that you can have total, sinless perfection while in this flesh?

[Gibs]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

I don't agree that the doctrines are free from error. One has changed that is most important. Saved from sin and committing sin - to - saved from sin and in continuing in sin. When Paul stated,

I've been an Adventist for several decades. I've never heard or read that the Church officially holds the doctrine that one can LIVE in sin and still be in a state of salvation! Are you of the persuasion that you can have total, sinless perfection while in this flesh?

Gerry,

What I'm saying is He made it easy and very possible for each of us to walk as He walked when upon this earth and is expected of us and must be done if we would inherit the kingdom. Paul made it clear,

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

We have no excuse for it is very clear to me. He took no power but we can have to also have the victory and be an overcomer. Hear EGW,

"Partakers of the divine nature." Is this possible? Of ourselves we can do no good thing. How, then, can we be partakers of the divine nature? By coming to Christ just as we are, needy, helpless, dependent. He died to make it possible for us to be partakers of the divine nature. He took humanity upon Himself that He might reach humanity. With the golden chain of His matchless love He has bound us to the throne of God. We are to have power to overcome as He overcame. {HP 59.2}

That is one of many she stated to that effect. Just take hold of it, it is free and sets you free from the bondage of sin and experience a new life in Him. He in you and you in Him is the victory.

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

I did not see a clear answer from you, so let me ask again: Are you of the persuasion that we can achieve absolute sinless perfection in this flesh?

[jasd]

Quote:

Some, I saw, did not participate in this work of agonizing and pleading. They seemed indifferent and careless. They were not resisting the darkness around them, and it shut them in like a thick cloud. The angels of God left these, and I saw them hastening to the assistance of those who were struggling with all their energies to resist the evil angels, and trying to help themselves by calling upon God with perseverance. But the angels left those who made no effort to help themselves, and I lost sight of them. [ed.jasd]

Well, there it is. The above certainly puts scotch to the idea that the eternal Saviour seeks even that of His fold which is lost – the dumb lost sheep. Well, mebbe not to the uttermost, anyway.

It seems a doctrine of elitism – the elite being the organized and so-called remnant.

Is it possible that the remnant crying in the wilderness has become the wilderness itself?

Perhaps, “error” abounds – hither, ...and yon. It seems most beneficial that one’s candle functions where there is darkness, or error, if you will – thereafter, trusting in the Lord.

Even in the higher echelons – to whom the .Org recourses in matters of disposition – that bright light and former director of the BRI, Angel Rodriguez, had difficulty wrapping his mind around the doctrine (doctrine, mind you) that Jesus Christ was the Archangel Michael – and left the matter ambiguous.

Is ambiguity error? Should not ‘error’ be acceptable, per Holy Writ? The question obtaining is, who defines the parameters of error and the quality of error that is acceptable to a .Org?—to the individual?

[Guest]

God's true church is made up of individuals who are willing to "keep the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus." Rev 14:12

Mal 3:16,17 Then they that feared the LORD spoke often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name. And they shall be mine, says the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spares his own son that serves him. {KJ2000}

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

I don't imagine they will all come from under the exact same roof.

[ClubV12]

I enjoyed Sabbath school class this morning. We had a brisk discussion on the word that Paul uses, translated most often as "keep" (as in the law). That Greek word also translates as "gaurd".

I see the law as a guard, by following it we increase our happiness, our joy and our spiritual understanding of Him. The joy part is real, as in this life, independant of the struggles we face. We may be in jail, but that joy and happiness are retained by the law gaurding us.

Gib's, your quote on what constitutes God's church on earth is entirely out of context. Where two or three are gathered Christ is with them. If thats all there is that is Gods church right then and there. But you miss by a wide margin the larger concept of the church, which is an organized body of believers with leadership, order and harmony. The early church recognized this concept. They too had a "General Conference" to consider, among other things, the issue of circumcision. From that meeting letters and instructions were taken to the various churches around the world. Some may have been comprised of no more than two or three members. ALL were obligated and had a duty to support and honor the directions from the "General Conference" on issues of doctrine.

Today God has a chosen people, just like He did with the early church. This group has a special purpose, to deliver to the world the third angels message. This group keeps the commandments of God AND has the Spirit of Prophecy. This group WILL GO THROUGH to the end. Those who are not true followers will leave God's chosen people and form their own little independant group(s). These we know of as, "off shoots". They have rejected Gods true church on earth and set themselves up as a divine order. THIS is the very essense of apostasy.

There is NO DOUBT when Ellen White speaks of the "church going through to the end" to whom she was speaking. It was a letter specifically addressed to the LEADERSHIP of the Seventh-day Adventist church. Her definition of the church is quite clear in this rather lengthy letter, she is, in THIS quote, speaking specifically of the Adventist church.

The quote is OFTEN and TYPICALLY used by off shoots in their opinion of what constitutes the church, meaing THEM and their specific organization. Of which there are a large number, each crying with a loud voice, HERE, I HAVE THE TRUTH. WHO has the truth? WHO has been commissioned to share it with the world? WHO is going through to the end? The Seventh-day Adventist organized and structured church, the same one Ellen White says is going through to the end.

Shepherds Rods, Branch Davidians and many "Home Churches" and other off shoots do not of themselves or in combination represent Gods church on earth.

[Gibs]

I did not see a clear answer from you, so let me ask again: Are you of the persuasion that we can achieve absolute sinless perfection in this flesh?

Gerry, No overcomer will ever boast as he has nothing to boast of, as it was Christ within who did the works. I will tell you this though, you can with His indwelling be perfect as He expects you to be. He don't ask any to do one thing that He hasn't made it possible for us to do. Why is it so many fight so mightily against being an overcomer when if you fought half as hard to be an overcomer you could be one. You don't think He asked? Read.

Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Ps 28:8 The LORD is their strength, and he is the saving strength of his anointed.

2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

The underlined in 2Co 12:9 is Jesus's words.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

We absolutely CAN overcome sin through faith in Jesus, THAT is justification, something we need every minute of everyday. Meanwhile, sanctification, the process of purifying our lives and coming closer to His likeness will take a lifetime. At which time, we will STILL fall short of perfection! But we don't give up, we strive toward the goal everyday. In the end, our works mean nothing, it is only the righteousness of Christ that allows for our entry to the Holy City.

We DO have a part to play in this. We DO have a duty to work with the Lord in overcoming our sinful nature. Don't put your feet up and sit on the couch waiting for some "miracle". Get to work, follow Gods blue print as you are convicted of it and see it, lean on Christ your only hope.

Righteousness by faith is so simple, and yet so complex for us to grasp. I think only those who really strive with a broken heart to find it will figure out the balance.

PK says,

"If I'm not mistaken, EGW says somewhere in her writings that this church, and I'm guessing she means the SDA church, would go on to the end."

You are correct, THAT was the letter she sent to the organized church leaders of her time. No question what church she was referring to, the SDA church.

[Gibs]

Clubv12,

My comment from EGW was not out of context and that is for sure about who the church is, it's up to you, disregard it or regard it. The same is true today and will be until the end. In her latter years she had her doubts about the church and if she was alive today you for one I know would be surprised what she now would say and some comments I've read here from her sounded pretty much that she was pretty discouraged.

I know you've read some as I've seen your comment among them.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

I disagree, I think your post as to what constitutes the "church" is entirely out of context.

Sister White NEVER meant to imply that "two or three" were God's chosen church on earth setup by divine instruction and given a specific message to deliver to the world, the third angels message. This was to be an organized and growing in numbers group of people. God Himself gave the name they were to use, the name is not some devising of men, it was divine.

The quote where she says the church will go through to the end was NOT directed at you, or me or a group of two or three, it was directed to the leadership of the Seventh-day Adventist church, to wit:

G. I. Butler and S. N. Haskel in 1886.

You can read more about what this letter has to say here:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/485298/Will_the_SDA_church_Fall.html#Post485298

[Gibs]

OK Clubv12,

Then you get me a quote of hers as to what is the church. I just would like to see if she disagrees with herself and then to you what is the true church and why and if not from EGW the scriptures to stand it up.

I will add another quote from EGW.

Just as long as God has a church, he will have those who will cry aloud and spare not, who will be his instruments to reprove selfishness and sins, and will not shun to declare the whole counsel of God, whether men will hear or forbear. I saw that individuals would rise up against the plain testimonies. It does not suit their natural feelings. They would choose to have smooth things spoken unto them, and have peace cried in their ears. I view the church in a more dangerous condition than they ever have been. Experimental religion is known but by a few. The shaking must soon take place to purify the church. {2SG 284.1}

Preachers should have no scruples to preach the truth as it is found in God's word. Let the truth cut. I have been shown that why ministers have not more success is, they are

afraid of hurting feelings, fearful of not being courteous, and they lower the standard of truth, and conceal if possible the peculiarity of our faith. I saw that God could not make such successful. The truth must be made pointed, and the necessity of a decision urged. And as false shepherds are crying, Peace, and are preaching smooth things, the servants of God must cry aloud, and spare not, and leave the result with God.

The shaking undelined above has taken place and there was a coming out of the ones that should have been upheld. These are the ones that were preaching the straight testimony and would even though the sky fell, no doubt about it. I hope you remember that great breakaway. You must understand it is the true that always come out.

The True that came out of the church of Rome were the true ones of the church Jesus and the disciples established and will always be the case. These continue to do so and remain the piece the same as the first. The Remnant are the come out ones. History proves it right there.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

See the above link I posted as to what constitutes the church that is "going through to the end". A rather long letter to G. I. Butler and S. N. Haskel in 1886, two leaders of the Adventist church at that time.

Sister White doesn't disagree with herself, or the bible. All though that IS a common complaint from those who say she is a false prophet.

It is NOT, "two or three" who have formed a home church with no organizational structure patterned after the early church who comprise Gods primary, official church on earth. CAN two or three BE considered one aspect of Gods church on earth? Sure! So can anybody who is living up to all the light they have. Even nature testifies to a creator to the tribe deep inside africa who have never heard of Jesus Christ. Are they also a part of Gods church on earth? I think so. ARE they God's church on earth? No.

Will all the people in Gods church go through? Nope, only a fraction will. There were eight that made it in Noahs day, but there were in the boat! On October 21, 1844 there were 50,000 Millerites. On October 22, 1844 there were only 50 left, but they stayed in the boat.

Only two people went into the promised land, the rest were "shaken out" and replaced by others who came in. Joshua and Caleb, stayed in the boat. SOME of those Millerites went their own way, formed their own churches, some later left the newly formed Adventist group and became off shoots. Some shunned the pioneers and everybody else and formed their own "home church". The road that leaves the boat is wide and broad, don't leave the boat, even though it looks SURE to sink. It may appear about to sink, but it does not sink, it goes through to safe harbour.

[Gibs]

ClubV12, go above your reply above and read my comments as I added some critical information that should be considered.