This Thing Of Error.

[Gerr]

"If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

What does, "all things are become new" mean to you? Does that include a new body?

[Gibs]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

"If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

What does, "all things are become new" mean to you? Does that include a new body?

Gerry, you only become that new creature in Christ when He dwells in you, we in Him and He in us and all things then are possible for us then to walk as he walked. He walked this earth as one of us with all our propensities to sin and overcame with no power but we can have to do that, His Father in Him is the same power in you with Christ in you. Why do you fight against the fact you can overcome your sinning and He expects you to or he wouldn't have counciled "go sin no more". No you will not be saved your way but by His way only. You are showing me you do not have the faith you must have when you won't believe with Him in you can and there is no doubt about it.

You only become a new creature when you are dead of the old one and like Paul has put it,

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

If you are not dead to sin as he states, you sure can be, just take up His offer in faith and it takes total surrender, surrender all like the song says and then go trust and obey in faith. Prove you have that faith by the works it peoduces.

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Here is the secret, get it, He in you and you can overcome all.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

Here is the secret, get it, He in you and you can overcome all.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Well, somebody is certainly NOT getting it! How do you understand the verses you quoted -

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Key words here are "continue in sin", " count yourselves dead to sin", "live" in sin, "enslaved to sin" (Rom 6:6), "Let not sin reign in your mortal bodies" (Rom 6:12). How do you understand them? These are words that have to do with volition, the will.

ESV | ‎1 Jn 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

ESV | ‎Ge 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

The ONLY perfection that can/will guarantee your entrance into heaven is the righteousness FROM God that is obtained by faith. ESV | ‎Php 3:9 "and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—" Perish the thought that somehow your/my success in keeping the law has in anyway any merit in our entrance into heaven!

Do you ever forget? "Forgetfulness is sin." 3T12. Do you ever get sick? "It is a sin to be sick, for all sickness is the result of transgression." CH 37.

"The character is revealed by the works, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts." ST 3/27/1884

[Gibs]

Gerry, Continuing in sin is what must be overcome, you are fighting against Him who would give you the victory, not me. He offers you the way to be an overcomer, take it and quit fighting it. Don't hold on to that pet sin so tight. Give it to Him and your will to do His will, love what He loves and the victory is yours. How does victory come, with a struggle and you know that struggle is self, self must be surrendered and brought down and broken on Him the Rock.

This "New Theology" you hold and fight tooth and nail for came in around 25 to 30 yrs. ago and there was a split, and a great coming out, flocks left and yet today some are leaving as the true light shines into their hearts. The theology you are fighting for is the popular theology of all those fallen churches who hold to the Sunday, it came from preachers like Rick Warren who at the time was so highly upheld in the SDA church because he espoused this theology that pleased the masses so much.

I love Him and His Word over that false theology. It seems to be Satan's masterpiece along with the Sunday, one is no better than the other and any error as far as that goes, but error on the salvation issue must be rooted out first.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[miz3]

You are objecting to the doctrine that our salvation depends SOLELY on placing our faith in Christ, yet you have not commented on these Bible passages:

ESV | ‎Ac 16:31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” ESV | ‎Jn 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." ESV | ‎Ga 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified." ESV | ‎Eph 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"

Let me ask you again, does your view of overcoming include even the unintentional/unwillful mistakes? That in this life a believer can achieve total perfection?

The Bible says that "nothing is impossible with God".

It also says that "All things are possible with God".

Thus, it is fact that God can overcome in you all unintentional/unwillful mistakes. Yes because of God the believer can achieve total perfection. See Romans chapter eight which mentions something like "being more than conquerors".

Thus, it is not by your human efforts but it is the "gift" of God in you that achieves total and complete victory. It is God's doing not yours.

[ClubV12]

Gibs says,

"Why do you fight against the fact you can overcome your sinning."

WHY do you, Gib's, fight against the third angels message, righteousness by faith?

[Gerr]

Gerry, Continuing in sin is what must be overcome, you are fighting against Him who would give you the victory, not me. He offers you the way to be an overcomer, take it and quit fighting it. Don't hold on to that pet sin so tight. Give it to Him and your will to do His will, love what He loves and the victory is yours. How does victory come, with a struggle and you know that struggle is self, self must be surrendered and brought down and broken on Him the Rock.

Of course, I believe in overcoming sin. I have written about this in all the years I've been in this forum. Perfection in this flesh indwelt by sin? You either have no understanding of God's perfection or what sin is. And you have yet to answer the issues I have raised. If you think you can achieve perfection in this flesh that has in its very fiber the principle of sin, you are putting an impossible yoke. I held the same views back in the '80s what you are holding now. It didn't take me long to realize what a foolish notion that was/is. We are NOT under law but under grace. Christ has ALREADY done for me what you are trying to get me to do.

"Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, or a day. It is a continual growth in grace. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. Satan lives, and is active, and every day we need to cry earnestly to God for help and strength to resist him. As long as Satan reigns we shall have self to subdue, besetments to overcome, and there is no stopping place, there is no point to which we can come and say we have fully attained." {CCh 51.2}

So no matter how surrendered and broken you are, you will find that there are more hidden evil within that will be revealed by the light of His glory.

[Gerr]

The Bible says that "nothing is impossible with God".

It also says that "All things are possible with God".

That's why God has to give us a new body at glorification because the flesh and blood that we have now is rotten through and through; it is hopeless.

That is also why God gives us righteousness, because it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to meet the righteousness required by the law.

[ClubV12]

Frustrating, isn't it Gerry. Many of us have been urging the need, for a long time, to accept, embrace and love the law, that there is "no excuse" for sin. We CAN overcome. And yet, recognizing that no matter how bold and detemined those efforts may be, we will fall short of the goal. Only to be told were preaching a false theology!!! Frustrating....

Anyway, while I pursue that wonderful goal of perfection, as I draw closer to Christ, more and still more of my failings come into view. I thank the Lord for that, the clearer we see the faults, the clearer we see the goal. I thank the Lord for His righteousness while I struggle and stumble forward it and I accept His grace moment by moment. Justified over and over again, while determined to keep a steady march toward the goal. To vindicate His character, to be like Him.

So who has it right? Paul, who is all about grace or James who is all about works? The answer of course is BOTH! :)

[ClubV12]

As if the bar is not high enough....

I was reading the other day where Sister White says we should discipline our minds to not "FORGET" things. That much evil has come about because we "forget" to do this or that or whatever. My immediate reaction was: BUT,,,, I'm getting older, it's becoming more difficult to remember things, I can't do it, it's to hard to get that perfect.

Well, I'll try to be do better then, it's worthy counsel. I'll make more notes to remind myself of the little things. I won't take stuff for granted as much anymore. I won't assume I will remember that dentist office visit coming up, or that call I need to make to someone. I won't be so "absent minded" I forget the speed limit. Theres a 1,000 ways to apply this good counsel.

[Gibs]

Agreed,

You have dispelled "the new theology" when it is seen you can be overcomers of your sinning as Paul and all the Apostles were in agreement and EGW. We can settle for no less a possition that is for sure, like Miz brougtht out "all things are possible with God" even overcoming our sinning.

Mt 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Mt 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

Mt 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

We definitly must have His indwelling,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Tom Wetmore]

As if the bar is not high enough....

I was reading the other day where Sister White says we should discipline our minds to not "FORGET" things...

Actually she says it more forcefully than that. She actually says it is a sin to forget!

Quote:

Habits of negligence should be resolutely overcome. Many think it a sufficient excuse for the grossest errors to plead forgetfulness. But do they not, as well as others, possess intellectual faculties? Then they should discipline their minds to be retentive. It is a sin to forget, a sin to be negligent. If you form a habit of negligence, you may neglect your own soul's salvation and at last find that you are unready for the kingdom of God. {COL 358.4}

This balances out what I have called perfection by old age and senility. Old folk with reduced strength and motivation (or testosterone for men) no longer able to sin like young folk. But that combined with increasing memory issues means that senior citizens have the sin of forgetfulness to overcome. Alzheimer's apparently is that sin at its worst... This goal of sinless perfection seems impossible now doesn't it?!?!

But as the quote in my signature box says "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." The objective we are to pursue is not just merely be free of sin. We are to be righteous in all things. That is far more than simply refraining from doing bad things. We must be actively doing good things. That is what Jesus was talking about when he said "Be perfect just as the Father in heaven is perfect."

Can't raise the bar any higher than that!

[Gerr]

Now I'm beginning to have a better understanding of your - "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." statement that use to irk me.

[Gibs]

To Tom, Gerry and all who will read this little paragraph, please take heed.

EGW speaks,

Ample provision has been made for all who sincerely, earnestly, and thoughtfully set about the work of perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Strength and grace have been provided through Christ, to be brought by ministering angels to the heirs of salvation. None are so low, so corrupt and vile, that they cannot find in Jesus, who died for them, strength and purity and righteousness, if they will put away their sins, turn from their course of iniquity, and with full purpose of heart seek the living God. He is waiting to take away their stained garments, polluted by sin, and to put upon them the pure robe of his righteousness, to bid them live and not die. In him, as branches of the Living Vine, they may flourish. Their boughs will not wither nor be fruitless. If they abide in him, they can draw nourishment from him, be imbued with his spirit, walk as he walked, overcome as he overcame, and be exalted to his own right hand. {CTBH 140.1}

All that I am saying is being said by her above and today is rejected. If you are not one rejecting the above I have no quarrel with you.

That ample strength is revealed in this verse I try not to fail to paste each time.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Tom Wetmore]

How close to the goal are you?

[Gibs]

Tom we can never quit agonizing to search ourselves deeply and put away each he brings to us and He does convict each of us the ones in our lives one at a time until we have put them all away. Every one He has brought to me it is put away by His power, indwelling in me. None is fully home yet until,

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

A lot of the trouble lays here as in this short paragraph a lot more so today than when she penned this, really it is rampant now.

"There are sinners in the ministry. They are not agonizing to enter in at the strait gate. God does not work with them, for he cannot endure the presence of sin. It is the thing that his soul hates. Even the angels that stood about his throne, whom he loved, but who kept not their first estate of loyalty, God cast out of heaven with their rebel leader. Holiness is the foundation of God's throne; sin is the opposite of holiness; sin crucified the Son of God. If men could see how hateful sin is, they would not tolerate it, nor educate themselves in it. They would reform in life and character. Secret faults would be overcome. If you are to be saints in heaven, you must first be saints upon the earth". {SpTA01a 4.1}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

You have never addressed the two EGW statements I brought up, and Tom even repeated one of them, i.e.

1) Forgetfulness is sin. 2) It is a sin to be sick.

So, as you get older, instead of getting closer to your goal of perfection, you are in fact getting farther and farther away because your memory begins to slip more and more, NAY, even have LAPSES! And as your immune system deteriorates, you get sick more often, until of course you die, which is the ultimate sign of disease and sin!

Until you see the difference between inadvertent transgressions that are the product of living in this sinful and deteriorating body of death from transgressions that are conceived in the will, you will continue to carry this onerous burden of constantly trying to measure up to an impossible task. You say nothing is impossible with God. Your application of this text reminds me of this question: Can God create a stone so heavy that He can't carry?

Friend, grace does not lower the standard. Righteousness provided by grace and accepted by faith enables us to meet the lofty righteousness required by a holy law given by a holy God. It is a FREE GIFT! That's good news!

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

The Bible says that "nothing is impossible with God".

It also says that "All things are possible with God".

That's why God has to give us a new body at glorification because the flesh and blood that we have now is rotten through and through; it is hopeless.

That is also why God gives us righteousness, because it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to meet the righteousness required by the law.

Matthew chapter five verse forty-eight states that we are to perfect even as our Father in Heaven is perfect. It is a command.

We humans certainly cannot meet that requirement but God can do it in us while we reside on this earth. God will do the IMPOSSIBLE within us hear and now. That is what Sanctification in the Bible is all about.

Since God can do the "IMPOSSIBLE" and we humans cannot even do the "possible" it thus follows that God is not bound by the same rules of existence that we humans are bound by.

We humans cannot do it but CAN DO IT.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

The Bible says that "nothing is impossible with God".

It also says that "All things are possible with God".

That's why God has to give us a new body at glorification because the flesh and blood that we have now is rotten through and through; it is hopeless.

That is also why God gives us righteousness, because it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to meet the righteousness required by the law.

Having said that Perfection is possible because God can do it and achieve it within us humans, does not mean that ALL HUMANS will actually attain to such a state. Most of us will overcome in some but not in all through the Power of God.

Why doesn't God make us all "perfect" if it is "not impossible" for Him to achieve now.? The answer is it depends on God and God's Plans for each of us as humans. This is why some by God's Grace and Power overcome much while it appears that others overcome little.

Thus fanatics of all sorts require that humans be perfect. In fact they are soooo fanatical that they think they actually know in full what the "standard actually states"/Law. They go around demanding that everyone conform to their view of the Standard/Law a thing God does not condone in any human being.

At the risk of complicating things, this fact is one of the reasons why sooooo many have bad feelings about Ellen White because SDA in general are always going around quoting this and quoting that in an effort to "club" others in regard to the "Standard/Law". God never ever meant Ellen White to be used in such a fashion, however, it is almost impossible to not be avid reader/follower of Ellen White and fall into this class of "clubbing everyone" with Ellen White's writings. As such this is one of the main reasons why Ellen White is not always "inspired in all her writings". Ellen White wrote mostly her opinion which indeed thought honestly was the truth.

[miz3]

How close to the goal are you?

No human can know for sure. God knows but we cannot possibly know.

[miz3]

You have never addressed the two EGW statements I brought up, and Tom even repeated one of them, i.e.

1) Forgetfulness is sin. 2) It is a sin to be sick.

So, as you get older, instead of getting closer to your goal of perfection, you are in fact getting farther and farther away because your memory begins to slip more and more, NAY, even have LAPSES! And as your immune system deteriorates, you get sick more often, until of course you die, which is the ultimate sign of disease and sin!

Until you see the difference between inadvertent transgressions that are the product of living in this sinful and deteriorating body of death from transgressions that are conceived in the will, you will continue to carry this onerous burden of constantly trying to measure up to an impossible task. You say nothing is impossible with God. Your application of this text reminds me of this question: Can God create a stone so heavy that He can't carry?

Friend, grace does not lower the standard. Righteousness provided by grace and accepted by faith enables us to meet the lofty righteousness required by a holy law given by a holy God. It is a FREE GIFT! That's good news!

Yes, Gerry, God can make a stone a too heavy for Him to carry and then pick that same stone up with the greatest of ease and walk away. God can do the impossible. Such paradoxes invented by human small minds are not a barrier to God.

The impossibility is not with God in all such paradoxes but the smallness and impossibility is in the small mindedness of the human who dreams up such paradoxes and by so doing diminishes God to being less than God actually is.

When the Bible says that "nothing is impossible with God" it means exactly what it says. Nothing!

God has no limiters and/or limitations of any kind. Such limiters and/or limitations are the product of minutely small human minds who wish to make God be more like them instead of having to let God make them more like Him.

[Gibs]

Miz3,

Amen to those contributions, our strength is from Him to use to do His will and must be by us by the choice of our will and that victory is then obtained.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

Miz3,

Amen to those contributions, our strength is from Him to use to do His will and must be by us by the choice of our will and that victory is then obtained.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Will you have victory over forgetfulness? When was the last time you had a cold or sorethroat? Do you have aches and pains?

[Gibs]

Gerry,

I have not a thing to complain about in that realm and all are not able to overcome those but all can the sin as He made the way for us to do just that, that we could be overcomers.. If he made us overcomes then we'd have no need to would we. But He says,

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

His way is the only way.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

I am just trying to have clarified what you mean by overcoming ALL sin. And as I understand what you have been posting, there are NO exceptions, since you claim that we are to be perfect just as God is perfect, and that with God NOTHING is impossible. So now, you are telling me that there are at least two sins that are exempted from your list to overcome? There goes your perfection out the window. Are there any others in your list that we can't overcome?